Believing lance cheated after he placed 3rd in his comeback tour?

[SilentAssassin]

Are we to believe he cheated? I think the problem is that all the witnesses are people that tested positive, and then confessed. So jealousy or anger could be their motive to testify.

Was lance just a better cheater than the rest? He would of tested positive you would think since all these other high level big name cyclists have already tested positive. There is that border line test but it's inconclusive.

Plus there is his near death experience with cancer. If you guys ever had that experience god bless...you know something like that changes you. So it's hard for me to imagine that this guy beats cancer and decides to become the most illusive cheater in cycling. I know it's possible but it's just hard to imagine unless he decided that the ends justify the means...the ends being the livestrong organization perhaps...or the cliche 'greater good.'

I know there is evidence but no smoking gun. To me the evidence is too weak. It's kind of like desperately reaching for a connection to doping...you'll probably find some connection especially if you've been racing as long as lance has.

But it just seems there are no concrete positive results but more so tainted witnesses.

Is there any witness in this case that might not be motivated by greed, jealousy, fame, book deal, etc.?

In any criminal case you can look hard enough and find what you want to find.

But I think there is a reason federal prosecutor's dropped the case...there is too much reasonable doubt and lack of credibility.

Which brings us to the post title. Lance placing 3rd to me in the tdf at such an older age during his comeback signifies that he was / is a beast. I have no doubt the sport was tainted with a bunch of dopeheads. But what if these known positive tested dopeheads are still being dopeheads by trying to take down a legend that beat them by doing it a clean. It sure would make them not look so bad if they pointed the finger at the best rider in their era.

I'd hate for lance to be even accused let alone be found guilty of these charges if he did race clean. It just seems to me that there would be a more concrete positive test by now. You have these witnesses who say how easy it is to beat the test but guess what...they tested positive...so why didn't lance?

 

[red_flanders]

Of course. I'm pretty sure the next year he tailed it back with the investigation in full force.

 

[Eusebio Kino]

Are we to believe he cheated? I think the problem is that all the witnesses are people that tested positive, and then confessed. So jealousy or anger could be their motive to testify.

Was lance just a better cheater than the rest? He would of tested positive you would think since all these other high level big name cyclists have already tested positive. There is that border line test but it's inconclusive.

Plus there is his near death experience with cancer. If you guys ever had that experience god bless...you know something like that changes you. So it's hard for me to imagine that this guy beats cancer and decides to become the most illusive cheater in cycling. I know it's possible but it's just hard to imagine unless he decided that the ends justify the means...the ends being the livestrong organization perhaps...or the cliche 'greater good.'

I know there is evidence but no smoking gun. To me the evidence is too weak. It's kind of like desperately reaching for a connection to doping...you'll probably find some connection especially if you've been racing as long as lance has.

But it just seems there are no concrete positive results but more so tainted witnesses.

Is there any witness in this case that might not be motivated by greed, jealousy, fame, book deal, etc.?

In any criminal case you can look hard enough and find what you want to find.

But I think there is a reason federal prosecutor's dropped the case...there is too much reasonable doubt and lack of credibility.

Which brings us to the post title. Lance placing 3rd to me in the tdf at such an older age during his comeback signifies that he was / is a beast. I have no doubt the sport was tainted with a bunch of dopeheads. But what if these known positive tested dopeheads are still being dopeheads by trying to take down a legend that beat them by doing it a clean. It sure would make them not look so bad if they pointed the finger at the best rider in their era.

I'd hate for lance to be even accused let alone be found guilty of these charges if he did race clean. It just seems to me that there would be a more concrete positive test by now. You have these witnesses who say how easy it is to best the test but guess what...they tested positive...so why didn't lance?

One reason, Lance raced clean, not doubt about it. If he did cheat during his comeback, he would have been an idiot. He is set for life by his previous wins.
Why come out of retirement, and risk everything, for what?

 

[caryopsis]

(snip)...
I'd hate for lance to be even accused let alone be found guilty of these charges if he did race clean. ...(snip)

I don't think there's any danger of the bolded being reality, so I'm pretty sure we're OK.

 

[ChewbaccaD]

In before it's closed.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

I love how people still cling to the "somebody who had had cancer and had been close to death would never risk their life with PEDs" defence.

Google the name "Niklas Axelsson".

 

[BroDeal]

Dear silentassassin,

request for urgent business relationship

first, i must solicit your strictest confidence in this transaction. This is by virtue of its nature as being utterly confidential and 'top secret'. I am sure and have confidence of your ability and reliability to prosecute a transaction of this great magnitude involving a pending transaction requiring maxiimum confidence.

We are top official of the federal government contract review panel who are interested in imporation of goods into our country with funds which are presently trapped in nigeria. In order to commence this business we solicit your assistance to enable us transfer into your account the said trapped funds.

The source of this fund is as follows; during the last military regime here in nigeria, the government officials set up companies and awarded themselves contracts which were grossly over-invoiced in various ministries. The present civilian government set up a contract review panel and we have identified a lot of inflated contract funds which are presently floating in the central bank of nigeria ready for payment.

However, by virtue of our position as civil servants and members of this panel, we cannot acquire this money in our names. I have therefore, been delegated as a matter of trust by my colleagues of the panel to look for an overseas partner into whose account we would transfer the sum of us$21,320,000.00(twenty one million, three hundred and twenty thousand u.s dollars). Hence we are writing you this letter. We have agreed to share the money thus; 1. 20% for the account owner 2. 70% for us (the officials) 3. 10% to be used in settling taxation and all local and foreign expenses. It is from the 70% that we wish to commence the importation business.

Please,note that this transaction is 100% safe and we hope to commence the transfer latest seven (7) banking days from the date of the receipt of the following informatiom by tel/fax; 234-1-7740449, your company's signed, and stamped letterhead paper the above information will enable us write letters of claim and job description respectively. This way we will use your company's name to apply for payment and re-award the contract in your company's name.

We are looking forward to doing this business with you and solicit your confidentiality in this transation. Please acknowledge the receipt of this letter using the above tel/fax numbers. I will send you detailed information of this pending project when i have heard from you.

Yours faithfully,

dr clement okon

note; please quote this reference number (ve/s/09/99) in all your responses.

 

[131313]

Of course. I'm pretty sure the next year he tailed it back with the investigation in full force.

I don't think so. I posted this in the other thread, but I'll say it again: the next year, he was getting dropped at Gila by domestic pros. A few weeks later, he was second in the T d Suisse. Since I got to see his form first hand, up close and personal at Gila, I can tell you that I have never, ever, in my entire life seen anything remotely close to that sort of transformation. Pupa to butterfly in a few short weeks.

I believe he was fully locked and loaded in '10. I don't think he really believed that he could ever get caught. Too big to fail and all that.

 

[SilentAssassin]

One reason, Lance raced clean, not doubt about it. If he did cheat during his comeback, he would have been an idiot. He is set for life by his previous wins.
Why come out of retirement, and risk everything, for what?

So you think he raced clean but wasn't clean in his 7 tour victories?

 

[SilentAssassin]

I don't think so. I posted this in the other thread, but I'll say it again: the next year, he was getting dropped at Gila by domestic pros. A few weeks later, he was second in the T d Suisse. Since I got to see his form first hand, up close and personal at Gila, I can tell you that I have never, ever, in my entire life seen anything remotely close to that sort of transformation. Pupa to butterfly in a few short weeks.

I believe he was fully locked and loaded in '10. I don't think he really believed that he could ever get caught. Too big to fail and all that.

We're talking about a guy in his late 30s. We can find inconsistencies and varied performances from individuals in any sport.

 

[mr. tibbs]

Dear silentassassin,

request for urgent business relationship

first, i must solicit your strictest confidence in this transaction. This is by virtue of its nature as being utterly confidential and 'top secret'. I am sure and have confidence of your ability and reliability to prosecute a transaction of this great magnitude involving a pending transaction requiring maxiimum confidence.

We are top official of the federal government contract review panel who are interested in imporation of goods into our country with funds which are presently trapped in nigeria. In order to commence this business we solicit your assistance to enable us transfer into your account the said trapped funds.

The source of this fund is as follows; during the last military regime here in nigeria, the government officials set up companies and awarded themselves contracts which were grossly over-invoiced in various ministries. The present civilian government set up a contract review panel and we have identified a lot of inflated contract funds which are presently floating in the central bank of nigeria ready for payment.

However, by virtue of our position as civil servants and members of this panel, we cannot acquire this money in our names. I have therefore, been delegated as a matter of trust by my colleagues of the panel to look for an overseas partner into whose account we would transfer the sum of us$21,320,000.00(twenty one million, three hundred and twenty thousand u.s dollars). Hence we are writing you this letter. We have agreed to share the money thus; 1. 20% for the account owner 2. 70% for us (the officials) 3. 10% to be used in settling taxation and all local and foreign expenses. It is from the 70% that we wish to commence the importation business.

Please,note that this transaction is 100% safe and we hope to commence the transfer latest seven (7) banking days from the date of the receipt of the following informatiom by tel/fax; 234-1-7740449, your company's signed, and stamped letterhead paper the above information will enable us write letters of claim and job description respectively. This way we will use your company's name to apply for payment and re-award the contract in your company's name.

We are looking forward to doing this business with you and solicit your confidentiality in this transation. Please acknowledge the receipt of this letter using the above tel/fax numbers. I will send you detailed information of this pending project when i have heard from you.

Yours faithfully,

dr clement okon

note; please quote this reference number (ve/s/09/99) in all your responses.

It's... beautiful

 

[LanceInMyPants]

PT Barnum

Dear silentassassin,

request for urgent business relationship

first, i must solicit your strictest confidence in this transaction. This is by virtue of its nature as being utterly confidential and 'top secret'. I am sure and have confidence of your ability and reliability to prosecute a transaction of this great magnitude involving a pending transaction requiring maxiimum confidence.

We are top official of the federal government contract review panel who are interested in imporation of goods into our country with funds which are presently trapped in nigeria. In order to commence this business we solicit your assistance to enable us transfer into your account the said trapped funds.

The source of this fund is as follows; during the last military regime here in nigeria, the government officials set up companies and awarded themselves contracts which were grossly over-invoiced in various ministries. The present civilian government set up a contract review panel and we have identified a lot of inflated contract funds which are presently floating in the central bank of nigeria ready for payment.

However, by virtue of our position as civil servants and members of this panel, we cannot acquire this money in our names. I have therefore, been delegated as a matter of trust by my colleagues of the panel to look for an overseas partner into whose account we would transfer the sum of us$21,320,000.00(twenty one million, three hundred and twenty thousand u.s dollars). Hence we are writing you this letter. We have agreed to share the money thus; 1. 20% for the account owner 2. 70% for us (the officials) 3. 10% to be used in settling taxation and all local and foreign expenses. It is from the 70% that we wish to commence the importation business.

Please,note that this transaction is 100% safe and we hope to commence the transfer latest seven (7) banking days from the date of the receipt of the following informatiom by tel/fax; 234-1-7740449, your company's signed, and stamped letterhead paper the above information will enable us write letters of claim and job description respectively. This way we will use your company's name to apply for payment and re-award the contract in your company's name.

We are looking forward to doing this business with you and solicit your confidentiality in this transation. Please acknowledge the receipt of this letter using the above tel/fax numbers. I will send you detailed information of this pending project when i have heard from you.

Yours faithfully,

dr clement okon

note; please quote this reference number (ve/s/09/99) in all your responses.

You've set the hook, BroDeal. Just reel him in!! Brilliant!

 

[131313]

We're talking about a guy in his late 30s. We can find inconsistencies and varied performances from individuals in any sport.

Truth is, that makes it even more implausible. Talk to any older competitive athlete if you believe otherwise. Saul to Paul, Cougar to Mellencamp..

 

[SilentAssassin]

Just trying to be objective here. I know in this forum people already have picked sides. I get it some people hate lance. Winning 7 times will bring haters.

I just think this will eventually die off like like the federal case did. It's the same scare tactic approach to see if Lance confesses...and then drop the charges when you know a few tainted witnesses won't hold up. It's a bluff.

I think in the end you have to establish a positive test before stripping the title or any doper that tested positive could always point a finger at the champion and say they cheated too.

 

[barn yard]

you dont need a positive test when you have (multiple) 1st hand witness testimony

 

[Ninety5rpm]

First, did you read the letter? online.wsj.com/public/resources/documents/armstrongcharging0613.pdf

Second, the letter states that "every other U.S. rider contacted by USADA regarding doping in cycling agreed to meet with USADA and to truthfully and fully describe their involvement in doping and all doping by others of which they were aware." This must include other riders who also have not been caught, like George Hincapie (who, perhaps not coincidentally, just announced his retirement).

 

[Hugh Januss]

Is this the Official Fanboy/Troll thread?

 

[Kicker661]

Just trying to be objective here. I know in this forum people already have picked sides. I get it some people hate lance. Winning 7 times will bring haters.

I just think this will eventually die off like like the federal case did. It's the same scare tactic approach to see if Lance confesses...and then drop the charges when you know a few tainted witnesses won't hold up. It's a bluff.

I think in the end you have to establish a positive test before stripping the title or any doper that tested positive could always point a finger at the champion and say they cheated too.

The issue you guys who believe in clean riders is you have never been on the Jesus juice and you simply do not know or understand any of it.


All the top guys in that era have been popped or fessed up..... then all the previous winners who are now team directors fessed up.

Does that really scream innocence to you?


Dope and lactic acid goes bye bye and you can hold top pace for twice as long and recover in 10% of the time to do it again the next day and yeah i speak from experience.

It's not normal to ride @ 39km/h up a 15% gradient for 15kms......


The Fed case got dumped because Lance has friends in high places. but it's obvious someone else has equally powerful friends and is going to all of them to bring him down.

Personally i say if they can't get them whilst they are competing then move on. Why waste millions of dollars going after people who no longer compete at the top level? If they diverted those dollars to people who are actually still competing, they might actually catch some of them!

 

[VeloGirl]

Ohhhhh, what a fun thread!

Near death experience with cancer, haters, never tested positive, jealousy, anger, no positive results, he's a beast... we got it all!

2005 called, it wants its same 'ol same 'ol back.

 

[cineteq]

Lance placing 3rd to me in the tdf at such an older age during his comeback signifies that he was / is a beast. I have no doubt the sport was tainted with a bunch of dopeheads.

If he did it before, then he did it again on his comeback. A guy who can monetize on people's pity, can do anything and more. No scruples whatsoever.

 

[tofino]

Big george...

I just think this will eventually die off like like the federal case did. It's the same scare tactic approach to see if Lance confesses...and then drop the charges when you know a few tainted witnesses won't hold up. It's a bluff.
/QUOTE]

Heck you're right Hincapie is tainted. This will go no where. Funny how he announced his retirement.

 

[Parrulo]

i can see where this thread is going.

please continue the discussion on the USADA- Armstrong thread

this one is going to be closed