Better Classics season? Gilbert 2011 vs. Pogačar 2023

[Netserk]

One-day races only. Who had the better season, and who was most impressive?

Philippe Gilbert in 2011:

• Liège - Bastogne - Liège
• Amstel Gold Race
• Flèche Wallonne
• Clasica San Sebastian
• GP Québec
• Strade Bianche
• Brabantse Pijl
• Belgian Championships, RR & ITT
• GP Wallonie

Placings: 3rd, Milano - Sanremo; 8th, Il Lombardia; 9th, Ronde van Vlaanderen; 3rd, GP Montréal.


Tadej Pogačar in 2023:

• Ronde van Vlaanderen
• Il Lombardia
• Amstel Gold Race
• Flèche Wallonne
• Slovenian Championships, RR & ITT
• Jaén Paraíso Interior

Placings: 3rd, WCRR; 4th, Milano - Sanremo; 3rd, E3; 2nd, Giro dell'Emilia; 5th, Tre Valli Varesine; 3rd, Coppa Sabatini; 4th, Giro della Toscana.

 

[Red Rick]

This thread is just a conspiracy by @Netserk to get me ranting about Gilberts 2011 season again because it's the off season and he's bored already

 

[Nick2413]

I’d take Pog’s with one more big win and 3rd WCRR, and only a couple less mid tier races. If he had even finished LBL it’d be more clear cut though.

 

[Panda Claws]

Incredibly close to me. As has been pointed out an LBL win would have made things much more clear.

Pogacar's wins were bigger and perhaps more impressive (beat an almost unbeatable MvdP). I don't think 2011 Gilbert could have done so looking at how badly he blew up after the Bosberg distancing Ballan.
Gilbert dominated classics the whole year and won better smaller races.

Overall I would pick Pogacar but I'll also defend Gilbert below.

Gilbert's 2011 remains very impressive though and he clearly was at an amazing level (mostly showcased by how he rode Tour de France). I think the gap between him and the rest of the field was often larger than what Pogacar achieved.
Additionally in MSR he got screwed by Pozzato and in RVV he made a bad tactical move on the final climb. Lastly the WC that year was awful and on a normal course he could very well have been the top favourite. Hell, I would have liked to see 2011 Gilbert on today's RVV course.

 

[Netserk]

This thread is just a conspiracy by @Netserk to get me ranting about Gilberts 2011 season again because it's the off season and he's bored already

It's officially the unofficial "Gilbert in 2011 is overrated" thread.

 

[ice&fire]

2 monument wins > 1 monument win
In case of doubt, Ronde win ahead of Monster van der Pool breaks the tie.

 

[Pantani_lives]

Gilbert had better results in the classics in 2011, because he won seven vs. Pogacar's four. However Pogacar's 2023 season is better in general, because he also did well in stage races. Pogacar's 2021 remains the best road season of this century.

 

[Berniece]

Gilbert had better results in the classics in 2011, because he won seven vs. Pogacar's four. However Pogacar's 2023 season is better in general, because he also did well in stage races. Pogacar's 2021 remains the best road season of this century.

Indeed, good analysis. Classics Gilbert, Season Pogacar

 

[Netserk]

Gilbert had better results in the classics in 2011, because he won seven vs. Pogacar's four.

How many classics has De Lie won the past two years? Because either you made a mistake or the races you consider classics seem quite arbitrary.

 

[SHAD0W93]

Lastly the WC that year was awful and on a normal course he could very well have been the top favourite. Hell, I would have liked to see 2011 Gilbert on today's RVV course.

How did the final ramp in WRR compare to the Tour’s stage 5 uphill drag?

 

[Panda Claws]

How did the final ramp in WRR compare to the Tour’s stage 5 uphill drag?

No real clue. G. Thomas did get 5th in that Tour stage.

Gilbert's form had imo also faded a bit by that point.

Edit: Nevermind. G was a totally different rider back then and actually quite fast.

 

[veganrob]

At the time, Gilbert year was pretty incredible. I remember it well. But what Pog did this year eclipsed that.

 

[Squire]

Gilbert arguably seemed more dominant, because he had an air of invincibility about him that year. When he attacked with the Schlecks in LBL, you just knew the outcome. Pog has bigger wins and against better opposition. So even a nostalgic like me has to give it to Pog. His 2023 is just not as big of a story because the top riders nowadays often have seasons that approach the level of Gilbert 2011. I mean, 2023 is probably not even Pog's best season.

 

[tobydawq]

How many classics has De Lie won the past two years? Because either you made a mistake or the races you consider classics seem quite arbitrary.

I'm quite sure that the official definition of a classic is a one-day race that doesn't include the word classic in its official name.

 

[Valv.Piti]

2 monument wins > 1 monument win
In case of doubt, Ronde win ahead of Monster van der Pool breaks the tie.

Don't think its that easy. Gilbert was an absolute monster, and so is Pog of course. I agree though that in the manner in which Pog won Flanders, and with having won Lombardia, I think its Pog, but its not like Lombardia for example is better than winning Strade Bianche, Amstel and Fleche IMO. I'd much rather win the three latter races. Quantity matters, especially when we are talking Strade Bianche, E3, Omloop, Fleche, Amstel, CSS territory - even Montreal, Quebec, Ploauy, Omloop, Dwaars to a lesser extent.

For example, had Pog not done what he did in the Ardennes, I'd give it to Phil without hesitation.

 

[OlavEH]

Besides Gilbert in 2011, which classics season after 2000 is closest to matching Pog and Van der Poel this season? Boonen 05? Other?

 

[Valv.Piti]

Besides Gilbert in 2011, which classics season after 2000 is closest to matching Pog and Van der Poel this season? Boonen 05? Other?

Boonen's is just better. Roubaix and Flanders double is more prestigious, Worlds is the same (even though Mathieu gets points for how he won, lets be honest) then you throw E3 in there, 2nd Omloop, 8th MSR.

 

[Netserk]

Don't think its that easy. Gilbert was an absolute monster, and so is Pog of course. I agree though that in the manner in which Pog won Flanders, and with having won Lombardia, I think its Pog, but its not like Lombardia for example is better than winning Strade Bianche, Amstel and Fleche IMO. I'd much rather win the three latter races. Quantity matters, especially when we are talking Strade Bianche, E3, Omloop, Fleche, Amstel, CSS territory - even Montreal, Quebec, Ploauy, Omloop, Dwaars to a lesser extent.

For example, had Pog not done what he did in the Ardennes, I'd give it to Phil without hesitation.

Strade in 2011 was closer to Jaén Paraíso Interior in prestige than to Brabantse Pijl. It's anachronistic to ascribe it greater status than that.

 

[Ilmaestro99]

Besides Gilbert in 2011, which classics season after 2000 is closest to matching Pog and Van der Poel this season? Boonen 05? Other?

If Gaviria doesn't crash into GVA at Milano-Sanremo, Sagan in 2016 would be the answer

I guess the top ones are

Bonnen 2005
Pogacar 2023
Van der Peol 2023
Gilbert 2011
Bonnen 2012
Sagan 2016

 

[topcat]

Can we bring El Pistolero out of retirement for this debate?
Also the debate is way too tame.
IMHO, it’s Gilbert. His 2011 season remains the greatest. You can see how weak the classics are these days when gt riders are winning over half of them.

 

[Wyndbrook]

Maybe a symptom of the current time and our being spoilt with VDP also having a standout season, but I seem to remember Gilbert's season was a bigger media event.

 

[Red Rick]

Maybe a symptom of the current time and our being spoilt with VDP also having a standout season, but I seem to remember Gilbert's season was a bigger media event.

Because for Gilbert the expectations are so much lower.

 

[Panda Claws]

Gilbert was just by far the best in a season of otherwise mediocre performances.

 

[Red Rick]

If we reduce it to the simplest equation of wins the question is basically Lombardia vs CSS, Quebec and 2011 Strade, and I guess you can prefer the latter but I way prefer to win Il Lombardia.

However, once you talk about "Gilberts invincible season", you bring subjective metrics into it, and I'll just say Pogacar's RvV alone beats anything Gilbert has ever done. In terms of style of wins and competition there's no question possible.

Pogacar basically only got beaten by Van Aert and MvdP on their territory, while getting beating like once for a podium spot by Ganna and for a 1.pro race in Emilia, with Tre Valli being his only average result.

 

[will-10]

Gilbert's 2011 was ridiculous. At Liege he was practically laughing at the Schlecks whilst they pulled away from everyone else. Also at the Tour that year he was doing loads of dumb strongman stuff almost every day, and should've won at least another stage or two, whilst being a legit green jersey contender for a lot of the race.
But in fairness Pogi's '23 does run it close, without the Liege crash he at least gives Remco a race...
Boonen's 2005 is tough to beat also. Similar to the above, he was on such a high level the whole season aside from the actual wins.