British politics

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https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2019/may/24/theresa-may-resignation-uk-prime-minister-politics-brexit-live-news
It’s finally happened. Theresa May has announced her departure from 10 Downing Street. In a speech this morning following a meeting with Sir Graham Brady, the chair of the 1922 Committee of Tory backbenchers, the prime minister said she would stand aside on Friday 7 June, with the process to select a new Conservative party leader starting the following week.
But how much of a difference will a new PM make in regards to Brexit?
 
The Hitch said:
Who can forget the amazing spectacle of fake moral outrage pushed to the extreme, when some idiot shouted at anna sousbry in January.

How dare someone from the working class call someone from the political class a nazi- they sneered from behind their higher caste. "Only we, are allowed to call people we don't like Nazis".

But now that for over a week, politicians that they don't like have been called Nazis, trumpets played over them while they try to speak or even assaulted, thrown milkshakes at as well as eggs, bricks etc, suddenly its ok.

So predictable. :cool:
Nice of you to sneak in that hyperbole. Nobody is having eggs or bricks thrown at them, so far it’s milkshakes, a quite literally harmless object (apart from to their suits). I agree that there was too much fuss made out over the soubry affair, put lumping in gbh and a milkshake is pretty self-righteously indignant itself. And so far from what I’ve seen the only ‘politician’ being called a nazi this whole campaign has been maybe Stephen Yaxley Lennon, and the less said about him the better. A few fascists thrown about like normal, but no more than how much marxist was thrown at Ed Miliband (!) in 2015, and by a similarly few number of people
 
So the UK euro elections broadly reflected the result of the EU referendum, the major crumb of comfort is that the fascists who have been taking to our streets have no popular support. Facist Robinson, and fat moron fascist Cargon of Swindon, lost their deposits, although clearly it wont have been them paying for it.

There is some hope that as a society we arent sliding back to the 1970s.
 
The result was pretty predictable. Brexit take the UKIP vote (I dislike the "Cult of..." moniker being applied to parties these days but it does seem appropriate for a party led by Farage with no manifesto. How else can you explain it?) and some of the leave vote from Labour and Conservative, SNP take the lions share of the remain vote in Scotland, Lib Dems take the remain vote elsewhere with Green picking up some of it and more from the movement that is building momentum across Europe. Labour and Conservative hold their central base but see huge losses elsewhere.

We now have the complete clusterf*ck of the Conservatives picking a new leader to look forward to and the EHRC investigation into anti-semitism within Labour too. (Wonder how long we'll have to wait until the Conservatives are forced to investigate islamophobia within their ranks..?).
 
Re:

macbindle said:
So the UK euro elections broadly reflected the result of the EU referendum, the major crumb of comfort is that the fascists who have been taking to our streets have no popular support. Facist Robinson, and fat moron fascist Cargon of Swindon, lost their deposits, although clearly it wont have been them paying for it.

There is some hope that as a society we arent sliding back to the 1970s.
Sargon is "fascist"?

Go on...
 
Brullnux said:
The Hitch said:
Who can forget the amazing spectacle of fake moral outrage pushed to the extreme, when some idiot shouted at anna sousbry in January.

How dare someone from the working class call someone from the political class a nazi- they sneered from behind their higher caste. "Only we, are allowed to call people we don't like Nazis".

But now that for over a week, politicians that they don't like have been called Nazis, trumpets played over them while they try to speak or even assaulted, thrown milkshakes at as well as eggs, bricks etc, suddenly its ok.

So predictable. :cool:
Nice of you to sneak in that hyperbole. Nobody is having eggs or bricks thrown at them, so far it’s milkshakes, a quite literally harmless object (apart from to their suits). I agree that there was too much fuss made out over the soubry affair, put lumping in gbh and a milkshake is pretty self-righteously indignant itself. And so far from what I’ve seen the only ‘politician’ being called a nazi this whole campaign has been maybe Stephen Yaxley Lennon, and the less said about him the better. A few fascists thrown about like normal, but no more than how much marxist was thrown at Ed Miliband (!) in 2015, and by a similarly few number of people
I'm glad you see Marxist and Fascist both being bad. We agree.

Mark Meecham was called a "Nazi" even though he was a one issue candidate and that issue is - the right for the average jo to make a joke without the police showing up. The joke was that Nazis were pathetic.

Tommy Robinson did have bricks thrown at him, so its not a hyperbole to say bricks were thrown. The less said about it the better? I thought he was supposed to be the one who used violence to further politics, not the other way around.

Sargon was regularly called fascist. Usually by fascists, who threatened violence against institutions who offered to host him. (Or has the definition of fascism changed since the 40's?)

Milo who campaigned with Sargon got a speech from a woman about how she defeated his type back in World War II. He was nice enough to give her the microphone despite her shouting abuse at him (the opposite of what his detractors do) and his reward was to get compared with genocidal psychopaths. She ran away when he tried to point out that as a gay jew he wouldn't have gotten far with the Nazis.
 
Many people fail to understand current events until decades later when it becomes history and is interpreted for them by somebody else.

You are one such person. You have absolutely no understanding of the forces at play here. The fascists are on our streets again, and you think they are just doing it for comic effect. It's called entryism. You probably think the Nazis took power by force, dont you.
 
Re:

del1962 said:
Sargon may not be a fascist but he is a nasty piece of work with his rape jokes.

I'm glad we agree that someone who has always been consistently and veritably the opposite of fascism, both in his opinions and his behaviors, is not a fascist.

That would be some upside down world if he was.

The fact that he made an anti rape joke, a few years ago is a different issue. I have no problem if people think jokes about unpleasant issues are always bad.

My question would be do you apply that everywhere? Is franky boile also a nasty piece of work, who's said way worse. The comedians who subtily "joked" about killing Trump/ Bush/ thatcher etc? Jess Phillips herself for laughing at male suicide or for saying she would stab Jeremy Corbyn?

Or is it only the youtuber who joins ukip who can't make those jokes or be edgy towards his political opponents?
 
The Hitch said:
del1962 said:
Sargon may not be a fascist but he is a nasty piece of work with his rape jokes.
The fact that he made an anti rape joke, a few years ago is a different issue. I have no problem if people think jokes about unpleasant issues are always bad.


Or is it only the youtuber who joins ukip who can't make those jokes or be edgy towards his political opponents?

Ah, so it is now being cast as an "anti-rape" joke now. Interesting doublespeak. :lol: Yeah, because saying that you "wouldn't even rape" a given female isn't at all suggesting that she is too ugly to rape, is it? Which, apart from being disgustingly misogynistic is also presenting the possibility that were she more attractive then you would rape her.

It doesn't matter that it was "a few years ago" because he has not changed his mind in the ensuing years. When challenged last month he doubled down on his position.

Making allusions of rape to a female politician is now just an "edgy joke" according to you.

That you think that speaks volumes about you, your values, your view of women, your ignorance of the position of women in society and is precisely why people like Benjamin need to be expunged from public life and people like you need to be challenged every time you open your mouth.
 
Re:

del1962 said:
Sargon may not be a fascist but he is a nasty piece of work with his rape jokes.
I'm really glad that the electorate agreed with you. I'm also perplexed as to how anybody could think that Benjamin had anything at all to offer. He had no solutions at all, just more divisiveness.

Look forward to him and his idiot fans being confined to the dustbin of history.
 
The Hitch said:
Brullnux said:
The Hitch said:
Who can forget the amazing spectacle of fake moral outrage pushed to the extreme, when some idiot shouted at anna sousbry in January.

How dare someone from the working class call someone from the political class a nazi- they sneered from behind their higher caste. "Only we, are allowed to call people we don't like Nazis".

But now that for over a week, politicians that they don't like have been called Nazis, trumpets played over them while they try to speak or even assaulted, thrown milkshakes at as well as eggs, bricks etc, suddenly its ok.

So predictable. :cool:
Nice of you to sneak in that hyperbole. Nobody is having eggs or bricks thrown at them, so far it’s milkshakes, a quite literally harmless object (apart from to their suits). I agree that there was too much fuss made out over the soubry affair, put lumping in gbh and a milkshake is pretty self-righteously indignant itself. And so far from what I’ve seen the only ‘politician’ being called a nazi this whole campaign has been maybe Stephen Yaxley Lennon, and the less said about him the better. A few fascists thrown about like normal, but no more than how much marxist was thrown at Ed Miliband (!) in 2015, and by a similarly few number of people
I'm glad you see Marxist and Fascist both being bad. We agree.

Mark Meecham was called a "Nazi" even though he was a one issue candidate and that issue is - the right for the average jo to make a joke without the police showing up. The joke was that Nazis were pathetic.

Tommy Robinson did have bricks thrown at him, so its not a hyperbole to say bricks were thrown. The less said about it the better? I thought he was supposed to be the one who used violence to further politics, not the other way around.

Sargon was regularly called fascist. Usually by fascists, who threatened violence against institutions who offered to host him. (Or has the definition of fascism changed since the 40's?)

Milo who campaigned with Sargon got a speech from a woman about how she defeated his type back in World War II. He was nice enough to give her the microphone despite her shouting abuse at him (the opposite of what his detractors do) and his reward was to get compared with genocidal psychopaths. She ran away when he tried to point out that as a gay jew he wouldn't have gotten far with the Nazis.
Tommy Robinson is as close to fascist as you get in British politics, and imo he ticks many of the boxes (ultra nationalism, violence/intimidation, not authoritarian mainly because he’s never come close to power. I said the less said about him the better, not it, and there’s quite a big difference. Meecham is a totally irrelevant figure. Sargon is too stupid to be labelled with anything as concrete as fascist, but he has shown: misogyny, racism (Mr ‘i find racist jokes funny and still use the n word’) and a general sense of bigotry under the guise of being fUnNY. fascism also isn't inherently anti-semitic: before the anti-semitic decrees, around 10% of italian jews were members of the PNF; neither is being gay and nazi mutually exclusive, just ask Rohm - Milo's argument is pretty pointless. I'm not sure why you are so keen to defence all these alt-light/alt-right youtubers, when they are little more than polemicists with a hatred of 'cultural marxism', trans people and islam. They don't offer much to political discourse or society at large, and aren't even actual politicians to be honest. People have thrown a lot of words at them, and some milkshakes and single brick (at an office, not a person), but at least in the case of tommy he's thrown a lot back - going to rome looking to beat up a refugee, and finding an excuse when he understood something as 'i'll kill your family' (when what the guy actually said wasn't even close to that). Regardless, it still doesn't compare the more centralised attack on left wing polticians as traitors, enemies of the people, communists etc, let's not forget corbyn getting punched in the head (not really egged, it was a punch with an egg in one hand) by someone at a benign pr event.
 
Great post.

The far-right are attempting to claim victimhood, which is why Robinson went around trying to incite people to attack him. The video taken by a bystander of his milk shaking was chilling, he had his thugs encircle a lone Muslim guy, then Robinson kept jerking in a him as if about to punch him. Naturally Robinson's cameraman was close up and showed none of this.

I too am baffled as to why The Hitch is so keen to defend far-right agitators. The free speech thing is ***...its always only about a particular kind of speech, racist and misogynistic speech. I sense that the Hitch is very very young (mid 20s?) and therefore did not even exist in the 70s and 80s when people fought hard to change society for the better.
 
Re:

macbindle said:
The Hitch said:
del1962 said:
Sargon may not be a fascist but he is a nasty piece of work with his rape jokes.
The fact that he made an anti rape joke, a few years ago is a different issue. I have no problem if people think jokes about unpleasant issues are always bad.


Or is it only the youtuber who joins ukip who can't make those jokes or be edgy towards his political opponents?

Ah, so it is now being cast as an "anti-rape" joke now. Interesting doublespeak. :lol: Yeah, because saying that you "wouldn't even rape" a given female isn't at all suggesting that she is too ugly to rape, is it? Which, apart from being disgustingly misogynistic is also presenting the possibility that were she more attractive then you would rape her.

It doesn't matter that it was "a few years ago" because he has not changed his mind in the ensuing years. When challenged last month he doubled down on his position.

Making allusions of rape to a female politician is now just an "edgy joke" according to you.

That you think that speaks volumes about you, your values, your view of women, your ignorance of the position of women in society and is precisely why people like Benjamin need to be expunged from public life and people like you need to be challenged every time you open your mouth.
Speaking of challenge, I notice that you put the words "edgy joke" in quotations, to imply that I had used that term.

But I didn't use that term at all. So I would like to challenge you to explain why you needed to fabricate what I said? Maybe the only way to make me seem like this horrible person is to make up what I say and put fake words in my mouth?

I also challenged you to explain why you claimed Sargon was a fascist. In 4 to 5 posts since then you haven't been able to explain why you consider him a fascist.

In fact you just praised a poster who said Sargon is NOT a fascist.

So if Sargon is not actually a fascist, why are you going around using that word against people who do not fit the definition?
 
Brullnux said:
The Hitch said:
Brullnux said:
The Hitch said:
Who can forget the amazing spectacle of fake moral outrage pushed to the extreme, when some idiot shouted at anna sousbry in January.

How dare someone from the working class call someone from the political class a nazi- they sneered from behind their higher caste. "Only we, are allowed to call people we don't like Nazis".

But now that for over a week, politicians that they don't like have been called Nazis, trumpets played over them while they try to speak or even assaulted, thrown milkshakes at as well as eggs, bricks etc, suddenly its ok.

So predictable. :cool:
Nice of you to sneak in that hyperbole. Nobody is having eggs or bricks thrown at them, so far it’s milkshakes, a quite literally harmless object (apart from to their suits). I agree that there was too much fuss made out over the soubry affair, put lumping in gbh and a milkshake is pretty self-righteously indignant itself. And so far from what I’ve seen the only ‘politician’ being called a nazi this whole campaign has been maybe Stephen Yaxley Lennon, and the less said about him the better. A few fascists thrown about like normal, but no more than how much marxist was thrown at Ed Miliband (!) in 2015, and by a similarly few number of people
I'm glad you see Marxist and Fascist both being bad. We agree.

Mark Meecham was called a "Nazi" even though he was a one issue candidate and that issue is - the right for the average jo to make a joke without the police showing up. The joke was that Nazis were pathetic.

Tommy Robinson did have bricks thrown at him, so its not a hyperbole to say bricks were thrown. The less said about it the better? I thought he was supposed to be the one who used violence to further politics, not the other way around.

Sargon was regularly called fascist. Usually by fascists, who threatened violence against institutions who offered to host him. (Or has the definition of fascism changed since the 40's?)

Milo who campaigned with Sargon got a speech from a woman about how she defeated his type back in World War II. He was nice enough to give her the microphone despite her shouting abuse at him (the opposite of what his detractors do) and his reward was to get compared with genocidal psychopaths. She ran away when he tried to point out that as a gay jew he wouldn't have gotten far with the Nazis.
Tommy Robinson is as close to fascist as you get in British politics, and imo he ticks many of the boxes (ultra nationalism, violence/intimidation, not authoritarian mainly because he’s never come close to power. I said the less said about him the better, not it, and there’s quite a big difference..
Well I think the people who use violence and threats of violence to censor are closer to fascism, but I never personally praised Tommy Robinson so I don't see the need to try to persuade me that he is bad.

Meecham is a totally irrelevant figure
No he is not. He is a man who has had his life turned upside down, got a criminal conviction and is in danger of going to prison for making a harmless joke that offended no one. He is referred to as Nazi by newspapers who do not know his story at all. Those who shrug their shoulders at this development, while shouting "fascist" at people they don't know, are the real problem.

Sargon is too stupid to be labelled with anything as concrete as fascist, but he has shown: misogyny, racism (Mr ‘i find racist jokes funny and still use the n word’) and a general sense of bigotry under the guise of being fUnNY.
Sargon is racist and misogynist? That is just lazy slander. What positions does he hold that are racist? Name one.

Its even worse because Sargon is actually a hated figure on the alt right because he has repeatedly challenged and confronted several alt right figures including Richard Spencer. He's been getting abuse and trolling campaigns from the white supremacists for years. The people who shout "racist" or "fascist" at people like Sargon, Sam Harris, Jordan Peterson, are scum who are actively trying to radicalize the right.

The "general sense of bigotry" you refer are two or three jokes from 5 years of videos. The ratio is literally something like 1 deliberately offensive joke per several thousand hours of content. You seem to have gotten the impression that Sargon's shtick is as some 4 chan type personality reading out offensive jokes. There are channels like that but that is not what he is about.

fascism also isn't inherently anti-semitic:
But Nazism is and some of those clowns call Milo a Nazi.

I'm not sure why you are so keen to defence all these alt-light/alt-right youtubers,
All? there are two that have been named. Neither is alt right. Milo i merely pointed out that he was called a nazi after you said it doesn't happen.

I'll praise the fact though the he is open to debates to discuss things with people who don't like him. I'll defend anyone with that attitude over the snobs who try to deplatform or dehumanize anyone they don't like.

They don't offer much to political discourse or society at large, and aren't even actual politicians to be honest.
That's an opinion.

People have thrown a lot of words at them, and some milkshakes and single brick (at an office, not a person), but at least in the case of tommy he's thrown a lot back - going to rome looking to beat up a refugee, and finding an excuse when he understood something as 'i'll kill your family' (when what the guy actually said wasn't even close to that). Regardless, it still doesn't compare the more centralised attack on left wing polticians as traitors, enemies of the people, communists etc, let's not forget corbyn getting punched in the head (not really egged, it was a punch with an egg in one hand) by someone at a benign pr event
I'm not for Tommy. Though the - its ok to use violence against him because he also did bad stuff I absolutely don't agree with. Very slippery slope.

I'm certainly not for Corbyn being assaulted. I don't know what the attacks on left wing politicians as enemies of the people communists etc are that you are referring to.
 
You said it was a joke, you said it was edgy. Thus you are saying it is an edgy joke. If it makes you happy I'll change it to 'edgy joke', instead of "edgy joke". However, your point is pretty irrelevant. Nice try at evading the central charge of my post.

Why are you so keen to defend proto-facists? What do you think Benjamin is? What are his values? What are your values? I'm not seeing anything from you that suggests you have a well formed political consciousness.

What I am seeing is somebody keen to defend far-right agitators and trolls, and somebody who thinks misogynistic rape comments are fine.
 
Re: Re:

The Hitch said:
del1962 said:
Sargon may not be a fascist but he is a nasty piece of work with his rape jokes.

I'm glad we agree that someone who has always been consistently and veritably the opposite of fascism, both in his opinions and his behaviors, is not a fascist.

That would be some upside down world if he was.

The fact that he made an anti rape joke, a few years ago is a different issue. I have no problem if people think jokes about unpleasant issues are always bad.

My question would be do you apply that everywhere? Is franky boile also a nasty piece of work, who's said way worse. The comedians who subtily "joked" about killing Trump/ Bush/ thatcher etc? Jess Phillips herself for laughing at male suicide or for saying she would stab Jeremy Corbyn?

Or is it only the youtuber who joins ukip who can't make those jokes or be edgy towards his political opponents?
Don't like Frankie Boyle so yes a nasty piece of work

More subtle jokes about killing Trump, Bush, Thatcher - find them not funny because these are easy targets, but don't really bother me

I think the stabbing in front not back was a metaphor so don't see it as the same, one feature of modern politics is how people twist what is a metaphor into something worse, no comment on the male suicide incident because I would have to see context

Of course all these people should be free to say these things just as people should be quite free to use the vacuous fascist claim as long as they are not inciting violence or being personally abusive though I don't see why Boyle should be given a platform at BBC licence payers expense
 
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