Bruyneel and Driedaagse van West-Vlaanderen

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Mar 13, 2009
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isayic said:
Contador was always a good time trialist. His first victory as a pro was a timetrial. But he didn't get much training in his early years. Also during the first year with Bruyneel he got no TT training because the "Mastermind" hired him as a gerario for Basso. (grrrrrrr) Later Bruyneel wanted him to help Leipheimer to win the Tour. The rest is history we all know.
Bruyneel wasn't happy with Contador's victory. Spaniards were in the team to help the top riders in the mountain but, oh goodness, not to win a GT.
If it would have been possible he wouldn't have Contador taken to the Giro. But Zomegnan insisted in Alberto's participation.
I don't think that Contador's TT skills have something to do with doping because you can recognize a development when he got real training.
Leipheimer on the other hand wasn't a great timetrialist when he was with Gerolsteiner. But suddenly when being with Bruyneel he was great against the clock. That makes me suspicious. And speaking of the mountains: Contador beat his brother Fran in the mountains with a bike made of steel that was too big for him -- he was thirteen. Think what you want. Sometimes you have natural born athletes or artists. Think of Mozart who gave his first big concerts as a child. And I assure you that EPO wasn't invented then. ;)
I would disagree.

Leepy on gear, and lets face it, they all are, was verging on a great chrono rider. Not many folk win a tour chrono.

Armie,
Ully
Millar
Botero
Gonachar Honchar Ukraine H and Gs abound.

Great riders win Tour chronos.

Great chrono riders that is.

Leepy even on Gerolsteiner, targeted certain races, Queen, aka Criterium Dauphine Libere.

Then check his results at Deutschland.

Very good results too.


***Edited by Mod***
 

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Aug 17, 2009
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Levi has been spotted, a blur varying from the dormant willows and grape during the winter months, obviously extremely fast, training alone in the winter cold frigedness.
 
Nov 10, 2009
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On a sort of related note...

Other than the obvious doping explanations (this being the Clinic!) can any readers offer suggestions as to why Bottle was able to ride the final time trial in the 2007 Tour De France with a faster average speed than the exceptional time trial rider Miguel Indurain?

I know that there have been huge advances in the aerodynamics and Big Mig did not have the most aero position but surely his physical attributes would outweigh the technical advances over the years?

Where is the point that Aero beats Power?

Assuming that Mig put out more power than Bottle but is beaten by him?

Maybe this is in the wrong place - if so, mods please move it.
 
Mar 13, 2009
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we need to revisit this thread, serioudly guyz, needz to get a clue, and girlz.

Finbar, let me answer your question first.

Doping has two parts. 1, the preparation, the strength work, and getting the blood parameters right, so you all flush full of O2 and your crit passes the new physiog parameters.

So that is done in the offseason, and in the leadup. Might be done in Mexico or Dolomiti. Ask chicked, he obviously had worked hard on his tt, and he could do a mtn break early when it was up or down, no valleys, like Floyd. Floyd had the flatland power to do w/ valleys. Great strategic gambit by chicken. No one even gave him credit for being able to break down the tour like that, and ride it on his terms. If he goes in favorite, he could never win.

So, we have the prep phase of doping.

Example pt doooz. Mr Bottle aka Leepy Leiphemer.

RECOVERY DOPING is the second phase. You need to manage your hormonal level and bring the legs in the second week.

This requires testo, growth, IGF, perhaps other steroids that dont show up on the mass spec assay, and blood or EPO to keep the o2 flying thru the veinz.

So this is where LEvi had it over Big Mig.

If Levi had to race Big Mig today, in a flat chrono over 50km, both given preparation doping, and over one day, not a Tour, Big Mig at high 40 decade, would still thump Bottle.

But folkz, please, please be prepared to be shut down if you dont bring your game to the table and be ready to argue.

This is what I know of Leepy, w/o checking results.

I think he won a big chrono, like something US pro or something, in domestic in 90s. I know he won the Tour de Beuce chrono then in the 90's.

Flies to Europe with Postal.

First GT, think it was 99, coulda been 2000. Lets think 2000. There were four chronos that Tout, well Vuelta. He was at the Vuelta, as his first GT. That had four chronos I remember. Won was about 9kms, a prologue. Top 3 podium. One was a mtn chrono. Top 3 podium. Two longer chrono's, he podiums also. Beat the guy from Oz, Nathan ONeil, who has now won about 3 or 4 Oz titles. He beat ONeil in all stages. ONeils best result at worlds is about 11th or 10th in the chrono, or might be 13th. Get him conflate w/ Ben Day. One of em makes the top 10 on account of Millar's dq, if you concede he should not or should have been dq'ed in the annals.

OK, So bottle
Vuelta, lets day 200. Brilliant, 4 chrono podiums.
Worlds that year, within a month, podiums! World bronze.
2008 Beijing, Bronze by memory! podium.

Interspersed.

Tour de France win.
Consistent performances in Dauphine chrono.
Good results in Deutschland chrono.

Think the OP conflates Bottles 2006 breakdown, the bad, chrono, when he could not get Fuentes???? ' blood. Musta had blood with Fuentes. Something happened w/ his doping then.

But the 2006 chrono whilst at Gerolsteiner, coulsa just been a bad legs day.

To the OP, I am willing to concede, Leepy in the Rabo lost years, whenever Oh my Tessa, Odessa and her big mouth talking about the orange boyz bloodz doping habits, Leepy did not get many results at Rabo, none that I can recall.


But to say Leepy cannot chrono is a right travesty. Even w and w/out Johan Hog Bruyneel.

Leepy is a rare beast, he can chrono in a Tour, and he can chrono on a one day.

And as a Tour GT GC rider. Apart from Ullrich, and Contador, how many riders have been able to juggle both.

Armstrong never one sydney, that was Eki. Armstrong never won Worlds. Gonchar only rode GC in Italy. And when riding GC at lesser weight, he was only good chrono rider.

Ully won worlds and rode GT GC with his talent.

Who else did both, since worlds moved from GP des Nations.

I only see Ullrich, and Contador, who have done both. Leepy is just behind em. But behind Armie, on account of his 7, soon to be 0, Tour wins.

This does not take into account, the level of the program. Just assumes, they are all on a program, so why bother, to disqalify Leepy.

Oh, remember, My Lyler Hamilton. With Athens gold, he is right up there. I think he came a close second to Millar on the day Ullrich crashed which decided the 2003 Tour, the last chrono, stage 19 or 20. Hamilton, on a par with Leepy.

Landis, not on a par, cos he never really contested the one day chronos. Cos the money was decided in Jooo, lie, for the red white and blue guyz. But potential to be on that level.

Cancellara, well, he is shown up by Gonchar, if you bring an 80kg plus frame that had done all the strength work in June in prepr for the chronos, you can specialize and make em your own. Like Gonchar did.

Gonchar and Canc, not the great chrono riders, if they are going down in weight, and contesting overall. IF they had to go against big Mig, on a one day, they may take im.

Think we are done.

Rogers, cant chrono for a bunch o' chipz, if he has to ride for GC.
 
blackcat said:
Think the OP conflates Bottles 2006 breakdown, the bad, chrono, when he could not get Fuentes???? ' blood. Musta had blood with Fuentes. Something happened w/ his doping then.
Levi and Fuentes?

According to Floyd, him and Bottle were running their own programs, with a bit of help for "logistics", Floyd dropped the name Del Moral in the Kimmage interview.

Could be getting my wires crossed...


Armstrong never one sydney, that was Eki. Armstrong never won Worlds. Gonchar only rode GC in Italy. And when riding GC at lesser weight, he was only good chrono rider.
2005 Giro GHonchar was well off his TT'ing best (but top10'ed in the GC), ET's program got him a crushing victory in the final ITT. 2006 Tour GHonchar dominates the TT's but not as prominent in the mountains.
 
Mar 13, 2009
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Ferminal said:
2005 Giro GHonchar was well off his TT'ing best (but top10'ed in the GC), ET's program got him a crushing victory in the final ITT. 2006 Tour GHonchar dominates the TT's but not as prominent in the mountains.

you missed my hypothesis completely Fermie

My point was there are only a few examples of riders who can juggle chrono dominance with high GT classement placements.

Bottle is up there with the best.

Just behind Armie, Ully, and Contador.

I was making the point, that you completely missed, that Segei Gonchar could win GP des Nations, and Worlds, or whichever his title(s) were on the one day ones were.

But.

Like Rogers. He could not juggle mtn legs, and classement ambitions, with chronos.

I forgot, Mr Schumacher.

Ully rate him highly. Thought he had greater ability than Cance. But when did Ullrich care about cycling and reading cyclingnews andf cycling archive for results, it was beneath him, even if e cared.

Thing was, Mr Ullrich had the juniotr ot espoir Telekom team, in his name. Like Livestrong it was the feeder for Telekom circa 2002.

And then he only got one year on the pros in Telekom.

But Schumacher went on a tear with Skil Shimano, or Skil Memorycard. He was winning chronos in Tour of Belgium, in Benelux, and other races, before 2008 or whenever, when he won the two chronos in the Tour, beating Cance.

But Schumacher's head grew twice as large as bottles, courtesy of the exogenous hormones.

Blackcaty needs to do a little more research himself, and stare in the mirror, ruddy muppet.
 
blackcat said:
you missed my hypothesis completely Fermie

My point was there are only a few examples of riders who can juggle chrono dominance with high GT classement placements.
No I got your hypothesis and agree with it, was merely adding a bit of supporting evidence!
 
blackcat said:
... when he won the two chronos in the Tour, beating Cance(r).

But Schumacher's head grew twice as large as bottles, courtesy of the exogenous hormones.

Blackcaty needs to do a little more research himself, and stare in the mirror, ruddy muppet.
Added the missing (r). Very funny - had not thought of or seen that turn of phrase before. (hopefully I don't wear it out in the future, 'cuz I think I may use it once or twice)

As for the hormone research, you are making my head hurt.

Dave.
 
Mar 13, 2009
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Ferminal said:
Levi and Fuentes?

According to Floyd, him and Bottle were running their own programs, with a bit of help for "logistics", Floyd dropped the name Del Moral in the Kimmage interview.

Could be getting my wires crossed...

no, definitely right u are/were/mewrong



2005 Giro GHonchar was well off his TT'ing best (but top10'ed in the GC), ET's program got him a crushing victory in the final ITT. 2006 Tour GHonchar dominates the TT's but not as prominent in the mountains.

yeah, but something went wrong w/ bottle on that first chrono. He mighta genuinely been sick, he might have missed his blood parameters. Fuentes is but a substitute for Leepy running scare about then, for the first chrono in the 2006 Tour, and missed his physiological sweet spot. Or, coulda been ill.
 
Mar 13, 2009
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Ferminal said:
No I got your hypothesis and agree with it, was merely adding a bit of supporting evidence!
yeah, Gonchar and Rogers were my two prime examples. Rogers could beat Cancer(alla) <homage to DQ> and Guiterrez in the chronos when he was a few kgs heavier, and not going off into the mtns. Gaonchar worked out that chronos and world champs, or the GP des Nations, did not pay like a podium at Giro did, and transformed himself into a GT classement rider. But neither could juggle both at once.

Millar, Botero, Rogers, some great chrono riders there, but not when they are at GC classement fighting weight and off in the mtns all day to get their sea legs.

Bottle, credit where credit is deserving, he managed to reach a pinnacle benchmark in both disciplines. Like only Contador, Ullrich, and Armstrong before him. But Armstrong does not have a one-day title to his name, neither does Contador for that matter. However, major caveat, a Tour dF chrono, in my mind, sets THE benchmark. Not September or October.
 

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