Can Jonathan Vaughters save pro cycling?

[BikeCentric]

The Denver Post is reporting that Vaughters is heading to Belgium to arbitrate negotiations between the ASO and UCI to work on standardizing the governing body rules of pro cyling:

http://www.denverpost.com/headlines/ci_12174476

Here's a radio interview with Vaughters from last year where he talks about Garmin/Slipstream's dedication to competing clean and their dedication to openness:

http://www.competitorradio.com/details.php?show=197

Vaughters is clearly a smart guy who seems to be truly on a mission to change the sport in a positive way. The question is, can and will he succeed? Does the system want to change or he is up against powerful forces that will resist these changes?

 

[BigBoat]

I just played a simple game with a group of 30 people, called Trader where everybody gets 5 colored chips (drawn supposedly radomely from a bag) that each have different value. You trade and in the end everyone gets a score based on the value of their 5 ending chips.

MANY are not honest in this very simple game of human nature. I cheated by simply lying about my score after the first round and won the game ultimately in the end by steeling from other players in the bonus round. Now, the game moderator kept the bin where everybody throws their chips (after reporting their score.) HOWEVER>>>> if you quickly chucked them in with a closed fist the ref so to speak cannot see your chips or may be distracted by others throwing in the chips.

Drug/ blood dope testing in cycling is much the same way >> it promotes cheating based on large loopholes.
The problem with cycling is... As long as BIG MONEY is offered it will never ever stop because there exists a human phenomenon called corruption. People sell out...

I have NO DOUBT that Garmin team has (through the Tiaa-cref years as well) not been clean and honest about anything at ALL. I dont believe anybody finishes a major Grand Tour totally clean (if the majority of the riders are heavily doped.)

 

[BikeCentric]

There is no possible way to conclusively catch someone using autologous (their own blood) doping transfusions is there?

 

[BigBoat]

There is no possible way to conclusively catch someone using autologous (their own blood) doping transfusions is there?

A while back I started a thread entitled "Total body Hemoglobin" which is short for measuring total bodily red cell volume, total blood volume. This would work if, IF you grabbed the rider immediately after the stages and tested them with this... But you cannot wait 20 minute after the race because they will "drain" the extra blood off. Sick as it is.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

An autologous doping test is in the works, or maybe even here. First, here's an article from the Guardian. Notice closely where WADA says, "We do not indicate when a test is ready, so as not to warn athletes". Meaning, the test might even be here, and riders still blood doping will be caught with it. Though the focus still seems to be on the passport.

AFLD chief Pierre Bordry talks about it here. Here's a translation, this is from late last year:

"Currently, we only search for Cera. But soon we can also work with the new procedure to demonstrate autologous transfusion, and then we will also test the samples again."

Continuing on about testing, as it pertains to profiling:

The doping inspectors have focus on riders, who before the Tour start had striking values. According to Bordry it should be 30 riders in total. The AFLD noted these riders and their results. For some of the riders the blood values had returned to normal level during the tour, while others did not. "Some of the suspected riders returned to have normal levels again. But we were surprised to see how this also resulted in a noticeable performance drop", said Bordry.

I spoke to a friend who is an MD/Ph.D physician of genetics, and said he knew of no such test, but felt that it would be possible to come up with one. He then went into deep medical scientific talk that lost me.

So, it's hard to tell if it's possible to get exact indicators of blood re-infusion in a validated test, but it seems as though WADA believes they will have a foolproof method of proving athletes blood doped.

Stay tuned...

 

[pmcg76]

Big Boat, you must really have it in for somebody on Garmin because you constantly sledge them. Whilst I would never put total faith in any team or rider, I would believe in Garmin before most other teams. I agree there are probably a few riders on the team that have doped before but hasnt every team got them.

Personally, I like their attitude but if they are doping, then there is no future for clean cycling at all and I will be finding a new sport to follow,after 20 years and endless scandals, Garmin doping would be the final straw for me.

Garmin have a big profile due to their stance but they dont have outstanding results, I think they are just a middle of the road team, definitely no Astana, Quick Step or Saxo Bank. They deliberately focus on TTs so that is why they are good at that discipline. Apart from Vandevelde at the Tour last year, there have been no amazing performances from their riders.

The notorious Paul Kimmage spent all last Tour de France with them and liked what he saw so that is good enough for me, plus Lance doesnt like them, another good sign. There is a general consensus that cycling is cleaner now (I hope) and I think Garmin have helped in this respect.

On Vaughters changing the sport, he will help things but we need a lot more like JV, no one man can change an enitre although I believe a certain individual could have made a huge difference if he had adopted an attitude like JV, Garmin during his career!!!

 

[monkey]

I have NO DOUBT that Garmin team has (through the Tiaa-cref years as well) not been clean and honest about anything at ALL. I dont believe anybody finishes a major Grand Tour totally clean (if the majority of the riders are heavily doped.)

At first I wasn't going to bother replying, but this just smacks of ignorance. No, I'm not burying my head in the clouds and pretending doping doesn't exist, but to say no one can finish a grand tour clean, where do you get your justification for this comment? What exactly is your experience in relation to riding in Grand Tours or any professional cycling races for that matter?

Where is anything in any of your statements in this forum about finishing a grandtour clean/or doped, and how "Garmin is jacked!!" is there anything to back up what you are saying.

Instead of making such grandiose statements without anything at all to support your view, why don't you present something with some substance and with some facts to back it up.

Yes doping exists, no, not every cyclist dopes, yes you can finish a grand tour clean.

I know forums are an arena to express our views, but you are just espousing ridiculous views without providing any supporting evidence.

Please, GROW UP.

 

[BroDeal]

Vaughters and is merry men should start the change by telling the truth about Postal. Instead he and his team are a cynical public relations campaign, the PR opposite of Rock Racing. Both are teams of ex-dopers which are just interested in image.

He should push for an amnesty so riders will not be punished if they come forward and admit what they and their teams did. Trying to go forward while hiding the past will never work.

 

[whiteboytrash]

Vaughters and is merry men should start the change by telling the truth about Postal. Instead he and his team are a cynical public relations campaign, the PR opposite of Rock Racing. Both are teams of ex-dopers which are just interested in image.

He should push for an amnesty so riders will not be punished if they come forward and admit what they and their teams did. Trying to go forward while hiding the past will never work.

Steady on. JV has already said a lot about Postal. More than enough to know what went on there. Can you imagine if JV or Hamilton for that matter came out and said "we all doped at USPS including Lance. Bruyneel was the mastermind and ensured everyone had enough blood for the race season. He even paid off the UCI so the riders would know when dope tests would occur & to have results changed". Can you imagine that no one would believe them ?Even with photographic evidence as Landis has most people would write it off as sour grapes. There is no point.

 

[BroDeal]

Steady on. JV has already said a lot about Postal. More than enough to know what went on there. Can you imagine if JV or Hamilton for that matter came out and said "we all doped at USPS including Lance. Bruyneel was the mastermind and ensured everyone had enough blood for the race season. He even paid off the UCI so the riders would know when dope tests would occur & to have results changed". Can you imagine that no one would believe them ?Even with photographic evidence as Landis has most people would write it off as sour grapes. There is no point.

There are enough ex-Postal riders at Garmin that the numbers would give huge weight to what they could say. The retired riders and people like Hamilton, who may want to get the weight off his shoulders, would be able to back up what was said. They have been saying it in private anyway.

Instead Garmin wants to have its cake and eat it too. They want to play the part of good guys while not admitting their pasts. We are supposed to trust them.

I for one do not have any trust when it comes to cycling. I look at someone like CVV, who was there at Postal when Bruyneel brought the ONCE doctors onboard then went to the team supported dopers' paradise that was Liberty Seguros and then on to the always suspicious CSC. Finally he ends up racing "clean" on Garmin and just happens to have a TdF performance a quantum leap better than anything he had done before. My BS meter gets pegged when I see a sequence of events like that.

There is a reason why criminals need to allocute when accepting a plea bargain. Without the truth, they are no better than Hamilton or any of the others trying to pull a fast one on the public.

 

[Pietro]

There is no possible way to conclusively catch someone using autologous (their own blood) doping transfusions is there?

Only after the fact after their liver has failed. Livers clean the body of excess red blood cells. If it is consistently overloaded, it can be damaged.

 

[whiteboytrash]

But what's the point ? The reason they have all come together under the mantra of "clean team" is they have all been burnt in some way from the doping issue. There is no point CVV coming out and telling the world about his days at Disco shooting up blood laced with EPO. There is no point in Vaughters coming out and telling the world that the real reason he climbed Ventoux so fast was because he had EPO seeping out of his eyeballs and by the way check out my new “clean” team. JV is trying to change the face of cycling through his actions with Garmin not tell horror stories of Bruyneel’s ways. It’s a more positive way of dealing with the likes of Bruyneel. If Garmin has their own internal doping program and makes sure all of their riders are clean and tells the world about it then it forces the Hog to follow suit. We all saw what Johan did to the French through the 2000's. The French had their own blood program which stamped out doping in France but they didn’t talk about it. So what does the Hog do ? He steps up the doping at USPS to levels of human lab rats. Wins 7 tours and then tells the world they did it clean and the French are a pack of whinging frogs. The only way is for JV to lead not to tell stories of the past.

Believe me the cycling world knows what went on. It’s only the few who take a casual interest in cycling who think Lance saved the world and never doped. You can see from this forum. 3 years ago 99% of the posts would have been about Lance and what equipment he uses, his training regime, VO2max etc. At least now people have woken up and realise that he is FOS and most of the stuff that comes from Bruyneel and Armstrong is just plain fantasy.

I like Vaughters. He runs a good show. Don't tear him down because his team is full of former dopers who were forced to dope by the Hog.

There are enough ex-Postal riders at Garmin that the numbers would give huge weight to what they could say. The retired riders and people like Hamilton, who may want to get the weight off his shoulders, would be able to back up what was said. They have been saying it in private anyway.

Instead Garmin wants to have its cake and eat it too. They want to play the part of good guys while not admitting their pasts. We are supposed to trust them.

I for one do not have any trust when it comes to cycling. I look at someone like CVV, who was there at Postal when Bruyneel brought the ONCE doctors onboard then went to the team supported dopers' paradise that was Liberty Seguros and then on to the always suspicious CSC. Finally he ends up racing "clean" on Garmin and just happens to have a TdF performance a quantum leap better than anything he had done before. My BS meter gets pegged when I see a sequence of events like that.

There is a reason why criminals need to allocute when accepting a plea bargain. Without the truth, they are no better than Hamilton or any of the others trying to pull a fast one on the public.

 

[tifosa]

'Bruyneel was the mastermind'

OMFG I cannot stop laughing.

jumbo shrimp
military intelligence
bruyneel mastermind

Thanks for that. Too funny.

 

[mr. tibbs]

whiteboytrash: I respectfully disagree. I think the past DOES need to be addressed, b/c I think the same methods used to dope successfully then are still in use today, albeit maybe in an evolved form.

I think the only way to clean the sport up is to actually come clean. If Vaughters doesn't give the authorities/public what they need to help then he really WILL have to do it all himself.

Or not. Just my opinion.

 

[whiteboytrash]

whiteboytrash: I respectfully disagree. I think the past DOES need to be addressed, b/c I think the same methods used to dope successfully then are still in use today, albeit maybe in an evolved form.

I think the only way to clean the sport up is to actually come clean. If Vaughters doesn't give the authorities/public what they need to help then he really WILL have to do it all himself.

Or not. Just my opinion.

Agreed. Vaughters has already given ASO and the AFLD a lot of information in regards to doping and how it was conducted. That lead to ASO including Garmin in the Tour earlier than a young team might have without Vaughters assisting in the anti-doping efforts. Just because he doesn't do publicly doesn't mean he doesn't do it. Besides Vaughters has dropped enough hints about Postal for all of us to know what went on. Yes he’s playing the politician but you can’t expect him to give a needle by needle account to the press of the dark days – then he’d spend his time in a slanging match rather than developing his team. ASO know full well what went on and now are in a better position to stop it.

 

[tifosa]

Does the system want to change ... ?

Cycling is like the person who keeps stepping on his own shoe laces: too lazy to tie them, too stupid to know that there's an easy solution, or so in love with falling down, that it's comical.

Cycling needs to shut up and prove to everyone, by its actions, that it's a great sport. Stop giving us words.

When was the last time any of you have ever lead or attended a meeting that didn't result in another meeting to discuss the previous one? Shut up already and make the changes you all profess to want. Quit playing the boardroom whizzing contests AND CHANGE!

Right now, somewhere, someone in cycling is planning to hold a meeting about the big meeting to come.

 

[pmcg76]

I think people should also remember what happens to people who speak out about Discovery/Postal/Lance, think Bassons & Simeoni, Lance even disowned his long time buddy Andreu when he admitted to doping but has failed to criticise Millar, Basso or Landis, I remember Daivd Millar said Lance rang him to offer suppport when he was busted. Double standards or what.

Remember the interview with Paul Kimmage when he alluded to the fact that some people who were more inclined to speak about doping the last few years have already climbed back into their shell since Lance returned. If you dare cross Bruyneel, Lance etc, you will have Astana sitting on your **** like Lance did with Simoeni in 2004. Not a good situation for any team especially a weaker one.

I understand both sides on this argument about dealing with/forgetting the past but one thing is sure, less people will be open about doping, now that the playground bully is back.

 

[whiteboytrash]

If you dare cross Bruyneel, Lance etc, you will have Astana sitting on your **** like Lance did with Simoeni in 2004. Not a good situation for any team especially a weaker one.
.

Oh please. Now thats enough. As if that would occur ! What ? Lance is going to chance down every single attack from every two bit pro ? Don't be so silly. To be honest I don't think he's strong enough or commands enough any more to be able to do such things. Its not like the old days when USPS would sit on the front of the peleton for 21 days straight getting their monies worth from Ferrari. Those days are over. I'm just praying with his broke collarbone he dont go too silly on the dope and make the sport an entire farce.

 

[BigBoat]

BroDeal "There are enough ex-Postal riders at Garmin that the numbers would give huge weight to what they could say."

More proof that they are all super super jacked and lying about it, not saying anything.

Do you REALLY believe Millar after he sees doctor Luigi Cecchini immediately after his 2-year epo ban? What a load of CRAP millar!

 

[BigBoat]

"Everybody dopes GOOD GUYS like Tyler and BAD GUYS like Lance."

- Dr. Prentice steffen, Slipstream/Garmin/Chipotle team doctor!!

Past FREAKS that won the Tour de France like Hinault and LeMond could only sustain about 390 watts at 140-150 pounds.

Zabriskie DESTROYED Gustov Larson who can hold 480 watts for 35 minutes. That is very telling to me.

In a rolling TT like that he maybe had less power than Gustov but not a lot less.... a few percent less but by no means do you beat a guy pushing nearly 500 watts without having alteast 450. But we dont know for sure because Garmin WILL NOT REVEAL Zabriskie's power data to the public. Why not? Common I want to see those power files, show them to me please!

Not just Christian Meier but the big riders on the team.

 

[Escarabajo]

Jonathan Vaughters does not need to come forward. He already has said it openly (or indirectly) about doping in the US Postal service. At least is clear enough for a "rational person". Why engage in a potential legal battle now against one of the most decorated athletes in the history of the sports. That would do a lot more damage to the sport than good. The occasional viewer will stop watching and the real fans already know the truth so how is that going to help the sport??

Now to the performance of the riders in the 2008 Tour. It looked like everybody was even in strength towards the end of the mountain stages. No rider had a real burst. I liked that. It was like comparing the soccer players from the 1970 world cup to the recent ones. They looked like they were playing in slow motion. As per that last Tour is concerned, it looked like they were going at half the speed as compared to the previous EPO years. That was just my perception. I can tell you that the CERA busts sure scared a lot of the riders and some of them had to change plans on the fly and you could see it towards the end. Now, given these circumstances, was it possible for clean riders to have a good Tour performance? Maybe. At least let's try to give the benefit of the doubt to the good performers.

Onto another recent note, Colombia launched a national team to compete in the Tour de France in the future. The name of the Team is "Cafe de Colombia". The same team that rode during the 80's. One of the comments that Luis Herrera (Best climber Colombia has ever had) is that this is the best time to come back because he believed that the culture is changing in cycling. And everybody knows what he was referring to. Let’s just hope for the best.

Just my 2 cents. Thanks.

 

[mr. tibbs]

Agreed. Vaughters has already given ASO and the AFLD a lot of information in regards to doping and how it was conducted. That lead to ASO including Garmin in the Tour earlier than a young team might have without Vaughters assisting in the anti-doping efforts. Just because he doesn't do publicly doesn't mean he doesn't do it. Besides Vaughters has dropped enough hints about Postal for all of us to know what went on. Yes he’s playing the politician but you can’t expect him to give a needle by needle account to the press of the dark days – then he’d spend his time in a slanging match rather than developing his team. ASO know full well what went on and now are in a better position to stop it.

Ah. I see. Thanks for the clarification.

I guess I still want him to come clean publicly just for the juicy details. Which is kinda selfish, but whatevs. Que sera, sera.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

I think there's a lot of common ground here actually.

I agree with BroDeal's idea on amnesty. I've said that for a year or so regarding Operation Puerto as well. Granting amnesty could help us be more aware of the past instead of the constant speculation we go back and forth on. We all pretty much assume 80% or so of the riders between about 1991 and 2006 were doped to one degree or another anyway, don't we? While many riders wouldn't talk, some indeed would, and amnesty could also help put another huge crack in the omerta.

I also think BigBoat brings up a good point on JV and Garmin. As they've tried to lead the way in the past with their internal profiling program, now would be a very good time to continue that and start tracking and releasing power data, and hemoglobin and testosterone numbers on their riders. I truly believe Vaughters does want to clean up the sport, the conversation between he and Lemond from about two years ago sealed it for me. But I think it can't stop at just the profiling they set up under TIAA-Cref and continue to this day. He's got to push forward more number releasing, and press for more openness.

 

[tifosa]

Cycling has to open its eyes if it wants to change.

I take Vaughters' and Stapleton's drive for testing transparency and taking the "high road" with the anti-doping/clean sport stance with a grain of salt. They've only traveled a short road from Postal and T-Mob - and that history is bothersome. The problem is, the road for cycling to truly clean up its act is an HC climb: no one appears to be able to do it without "help".

 

[BigBoat]

They've only traveled a short road from Postal and T-Mob - and that history is bothersome. The problem is, the road for cycling to truly clean up its act is an HC climb: no one appears to be able to do it without "help".

EXACTLY. What do you do when your lies dont work? You lie better with good public relations and use words like "transparency" and you hire journalists like Kimmage to come and camp out in the front lawn. And then possibly pay Kimmage for all we know.

Doesnt transparent mean see through? I want a camera on the riders then, and I want to be in the rooms. If Christian Vande Velde can put down enough watts to finish 4th in the Tour I want to see that he doesnt have a 21 guage IV needle stuck in his waist with blood being pumped in via pressure bags at 9 A.M. before the key stages.