Car Doping: what to do?

[Armchair Cyclist]

Whatever happened on Saturday seems unlikely to be proved, and therefore cannot be acted upon, but once again the sport finds itself in need of proving its willingness to be clean. As with the bike doping scandals, the unproven cases must lead to intervention to prove others, and thus discourage further incidents.

The 'Demare debacle' should have two easily achieved results: a condition for any car to be part of the race convoy is that it carries a constantly running camera (maybe 2, one forward-, one backward-facing) the footage of which must be available upon demand for commissaires for 48 hours after the end of the race; and a whistle-blowers' charter, allowing anonymous accusations for any serious offences during the race to trigger investigation, to scrap the omerta defensiveness and the idea that only riders nearing retirement and not in need of future contracts can object to cheating. If the accusation is not public, the investigation can be done quietly and if there is no case to answer, the public need not be aware of it.

Yes, there might be some results overturned or that take a while to confirm, but that is a small price for a sport that can be trusted.

 

[Mr.38%]

Car "Doping"? Please. Don't make our sport worse than it already is. It's plain cheating.

 

[CheckMyPecs]

Whatever happened on Saturday seems unlikely to be proved, and therefore cannot be acted upon, but once again the sport finds itself in need of proving its willingness to be clean.

Time to let this go.

 

[Catwhoorg]

What happened ? was busy this weekend and missed all the racing and discussion.

 

[sniper]

Catwhoorg: http://velonews.competitor.com/2016/03/news/399202_399202

 

[sniper]

Whatever happened on Saturday seems unlikely to be proved, and therefore cannot be acted upon, but once again the sport finds itself in need of proving its willingness to be clean. As with the bike doping scandals, the unproven cases must lead to intervention to prove others, and thus discourage further incidents.
...

you don't cheat on monday but not on tuesday.

 

[Maxiton]

Car doping. Riders hang on to cars sometimes. Always been that way. If they get caught, they get relegated. If they don't get caught, they get away with it. Nothing has changed.

There are more serious issues in the sport to worry about.

 

[sniper]

Re:

Car doping. Riders hang on to cars sometimes. Always been that way. If they get caught, they get relegated. If they don't get caught, they get away with it. Nothing has changed.

There are more serious issues in the sport to worry about.

Agreed, though it's funny to recall that some Sky/BC members are on the record explaining how they wouldn't hang onto cars because they thought it was unethical. I should search the link, but there is one Sky rider who suggested that hanging onto cars was a typical Italian trait.

Also, wasn't Nibbles thrown out of the Giro for a similar offense? (and not even going uphill, but on the flat)

 

[sniper]

edit:
I was referring to Ben Swift in 2008 about his experiences riding for BC u23 in Italy:

PEZ: Are drugs a problem?
Ben: There’s the odd ‘positive,’ but the worst form of cheating is guys hanging on to cars, you see it all the time and it’s really annoying – especially if they beat you at the end!
http://www.pezcyclingnews.com/interviews/a-rider-with-a-future-ben-swift/

 

[sniper]

And here's Rod Ellingworth (coach of the u23s in Quarrata/Tuscany) on the same topic:

"... the cheating that happens, particularly riders trying to hang onto cars. I wouldn’t let the lads do that; it was our first rule – if I see you hanging onto a car, you are going home."

(from Ellingworth's "Project Rainbow")

 

[Armchair Cyclist]

[quote="sniper you don't cheat on monday but not on tuesday.[/quote]
But if you see someone sanctioned for cheating on Monday, you might think twice on Tuesday, and if you can be pretty certain from what happened on Monday that you will be caught on Tuesday, and still cheat, you are an idiot.

 

[Armchair Cyclist]

Re:

Car doping. Riders hang on to cars sometimes. Always been that way. If they get caught, they get relegated. If they don't get caught, they get away with it. Nothing has changed.

There are more serious issues in the sport to worry about.

It always happened, so there is no point in trying to make it happen more often, even when it gives unsporting results to some of the most important races? What is the point in having any cycling before the sprint in that case?

If they get caught they get disqualified, but you would rather not have any more people get caught? So you want more people who ought to get disqualified to get away with it?

 

[Armchair Cyclist]

Car "Doping"? Please. Don't make our sport worse than it already is. It's plain cheating.

As is doping, or "bike-doping". I don't think either term is more or less pejorative than the other. Are you suggesting that organisers should look the other way, trust to luck as in the current situation as to whether the camera happened to be on them at the time, or do something proactive to catch cheats as I propose?

 

[simoni]

Re:

Car doping. Riders hang on to cars sometimes. Always been that way. If they get caught, they get relegated. If they don't get caught, they get away with it. Nothing has changed.

There are more serious issues in the sport to worry about.

Just because that the way its been up to now doesn't mean that its the way it should always be.

Any cheating that has the potential to materially affect results is important. In this case it could quite readily be solved by the use of cameras on cars or by improved use of rider tracking. People get in a bluster about electric motors - hanging onto cars has exactly the same impact and should be treated with the same importance.

 

[Tonton]

It's not by putting cameras that you'll solve anything...how about the sticky bottle, which seems to have been the case with Demare? Where do you draw the line? How about completely forbidding riders to TOUCH team cars (so doctor car is fine) and multiply feeding/water stations? Also, with ear pieces existing now, have the DS in a journo-like booth, which would reduce how many cars (drafting opportunities) exist. Only official cars on the course, including neutral mechanics with spare wheels and the likes. Drafting is another issue, but in Demare's case and many others, having to catch up and find your way through 20-30 cars, you'll find yourself behind cars and draft, whether you want it or not. I think it's a much more complicated issue than the OP suggests. As a side note,when you see more and more vehicles, cars or motorcycles on the course, I can't believe that one TV camera doesn't follow each group. That would be, what, 10 motorcycles max?

 

[carton]

I'm actually more concerned about the caravan surfing that anything. I remember Uran doing it in the Vuelta or Giro last year, he had three or four guys pacing him then he started draft surfing like a mad-man. The other guys just stayed back, ostensibly because they valued their lives far more than he did at that point.

It's a really subjective call, but one that has to be made more often. I get the let the down rider have a shot thing, I do, but a car is going to hit a pothole and someone is going to die out there.

 

[Catwhoorg]

Re:

Catwhoorg: http://velonews.competitor.com/2016/03/news/399202_399202

Thank you.

 

[Martin]

TECHNICAL DOPING, that's what it is.
This was no weak but sophisticated engine hidden in a frame, but a engine of a car with much more kW.
I regret picking Demare in this years CQ Ranking Manger Game, does he really think he has done nothing wrong?

 

[King Boonen]

We seem to have gone from being pulled up the Cipressa at 80kmh to drafting behind a few cars and a possible 100m sticky bottle on this. Without any actual evidence on this I'll going to side with the opinion that it's a load of losers whining.

Drafting seems to be the main sticky point here and I have to side with Tonton on this (or at least what I think his opinion is). It's pretty much impossible for them not to draft so it then becomes a judgement call and invariably if they are just regaining their position lost in a crash it seems fair to me.

 

[MarkvW]

Despite what the rules say, there is nothing per se wrong about towing in the world of professional cycling.
Despite what the rules say, there is nothing per se wrong about doping in the world of professional cycling.

Pro cycling is all about turning a blind eye to this and that.

It's a filthy circus.

 

[DFA123]

Couldn't the commisaires just make it a requirement that they can view the power data of any rider after the race? Perhaps even check every winner, or every rider to finish in the top three, or anytime there is suspicion or an accusation. It would be pretty obvious if they have obtained a significant advantage, and riders would soon stop doing it if they knew that they would almost certainly be punished retrospectively.

 

[King Boonen]

Re:

Couldn't the commisaires just make it a requirement that they can view the power data of any rider after the race? Perhaps even check every winner, or every rider to finish in the top three, or anytime there is suspicion or an accusation. It would be pretty obvious if they have obtained a significant advantage, and riders would soon stop doing it if they knew that they would almost certainly be punished retrospectively.

You'll need GPS data as well and you'll need to know if they were drafting/taking a bottle etc. If drafting you'll need to know if the had no other choice as in some situations the riders get stuck in the cars and have to just sit there. Then you might find teams stop using power meters or stop recording the data ("my Garmin turned itself off! Had to wait until after the climb to restart it") and so on.

His speed and cadence data is up on Strava and nothing looks odd, with no actual evidence it's hard to take the accusations seriously. Some of the comments on there are disgraceful.

 

[blackcat]

Re: Re:

Car doping. Riders hang on to cars sometimes. Always been that way. If they get caught, they get relegated. If they don't get caught, they get away with it. Nothing has changed.

There are more serious issues in the sport to worry about.

Agreed, though it's funny to recall that some Sky/BC members are on the record explaining how they wouldn't hang onto cars because they thought it was unethical. I should search the link, but there is one Sky rider who suggested that hanging onto cars was a typical Italian trait.

Also, wasn't Nibbles thrown out of the Giro for a similar offense? (and not even going uphill, but on the flat)

ask Farrar about Cav at the Giro. he was dropped from the autobus/gruppetto which would normally spell a DQ, then miraculously a HighRoad tow made him to finish the stage to within the cut

 

[DFA123]

Re: Re:

Couldn't the commisaires just make it a requirement that they can view the power data of any rider after the race? Perhaps even check every winner, or every rider to finish in the top three, or anytime there is suspicion or an accusation. It would be pretty obvious if they have obtained a significant advantage, and riders would soon stop doing it if they knew that they would almost certainly be punished retrospectively.

You'll need GPS data as well and you'll need to know if they were drafting/taking a bottle etc. If drafting you'll need to know if the had no other choice as in some situations the riders get stuck in the cars and have to just sit there. Then you might find teams stop using power meters or stop recording the data ("my Garmin turned itself off! Had to wait until after the climb to restart it") and so on.

His speed and cadence data is up on Strava and nothing looks odd, with no actual evidence it's hard to take the accusations seriously. Some of the comments on there are disgraceful.

Sure, it wouldn't be foolproof, but it would certainly highlight any blatant cheating. If a rider accelerates rapidly on an uphill section with no increase in power it would be a pretty obvious red flag. Taking a sticky bottle on the flat isn't so important anyway, unless they do a Nibali - which again would show up pretty clearly on a power file.

If the availability of the power file was part of the conditions to enter the race, then switching it off could result in disciplinary action.

It would be difficult to enforce any sanctions in marginal cases, but would still be a deterrant against blatant cheating, which there doesn't seem to be at the moment.

 

[Armchair Cyclist]

It's not by putting cameras that you'll solve anything...how about the sticky bottle, which seems to have been the case with Demare?

When a rider grabs a bottle from a roadside soigneur, there is absolutely nothing sticky about it: these well trained, well practised, athletes have excellent reactions, and are capable of grasping a bottle, on the move, in a fraction of a second. There is no reason why this ability should be compromised when the bottle is being proffered from a car. If he needs to talk to the team manager, he can cycle alongside under his own steam, not that of a petrol engine.
And if a rider was stupid enough to start the race with his saddle at a height that will need adjustment, then stopping to alter it, rather than pretending to let a mechanic alter it while he takes a 40kmh breather, is an apt 'reward' for such unprofessionalism. There should be no physical contact between the rider and the car, there is nothing intrinsic to the nature of bike riding or racing that requires it.

But if there is to be an outright ban on such contact, then that needs to be enforced, and it the car in front has a camera, or the car ahead has a rear-facing camera, enforcement is easy.