Carrying On The Recent Tradition Of Having Less Traditional MTF's In The TDF

[gregrowlerson]

The best thing that the TDF has done in recent times (apart from the introduction of the Col de Romme in '09) has been to finish a stage on a mountain which traditionally has only been used in the middle of the stage. We had the Aubisque in '07, Tourmalet '10 and Galibier this year. Most would agree that these stages were a success.

Previously it was always said that liguistically it was just impossible to conclude a stage on certain mountain tops, but now that this appears to no longer be the case, I want to ask which other mountains should be used as MTF's (or as a MTT) in the Tour?

A difficulty seems to be finding climbs in France that have the steepness of those in Italy in Spain. However the Agnel that was climbed this year in stage 18 is a genuine HC beast. 23.5 kms @ 6.5%, with the final 8.7 kms @ 10%! I can't think of any climb recently used in the Tour that can match that sort of steepness for such a length of time. And that you previously have a 15 km climb at approximately 5% simply as a warm up, shows how tough a climb the Agnel is (it's perhaps the one TDF climb that can be in the same discussion as Zoncolan, Angliru, etc). I would love to see this mountain used at the end of a TDF stage.

I am trying to 'discover' steeper climbs IN France though, so the fact that this side of the Agnel is over the Italian border possibly defeats my argument.

This thread is not to discuss climbs such as the Perysourde, Columbierre, Ju-Plaix, etc. These are traditionally not MTF's, but they already work well with the short descent finishers, so I am talking about climbs that have been used 30 kms plus from the finish.

Discuss.

 

[gregrowlerson]

"France already has some really steep climbs that it just doesn't use - Mont du Chat is 14km @ 8,9%, and Errozate is 10,1km @ 9,6%."

From Zonc and Angliru thread. Thanks Libertine Seguros.

If there are not enough interesting mountains around them to form a great stage, then a MTT is always an option - not used by the TDF since 2004

 

[gregrowlerson]

"First thing's first: there's next to nothing at the top of Errozate. However, you could turn off at Artaburu (very shortly before the summit) and then descend and over a couple of brief climbs (like the Giro stage to Pescocostanzo in 2008) to finish at Hegichouria or even descend into Larrau and finish on the Port de Larrau.

As to Mont du Chat - lots of options as it's just outside Le-Bourget-du-Lac and thus very close to Chambéry.

On the same mountain there is the Col du Chat and the Col d'Épine. To the east there is the Col de la Clusaz, to the north there's Ontex, to the northeast there's the Col du Sapenay, Mont Clergeon, to the south there's the Col du Granier and the Col de la Cluse, and just a little further to the north there's the Col du Grand Colombier."

More from LS.

The Mont du Chat options sound exciting!

 

[gregrowlerson]

More on the Mont du Chat:

From km 3 through to 13, you have 11 kms where the full km gradiants all average between 9 and 11%. Traditionally we don't have this in TDF climbs - rather sections of this sort of length that range between 7 and 9%.

 

[gregrowlerson]

Some profiles of the climb differ slightly.

 

[RedheadDane]

Okay, I don't remember the Ausbisque situation. But with Tourmalet and Galibier I thought it was basically a sense of It's the centenary year for using this mountain range. This mountain is one of the most legendary. To hell it the slight difficulties we may have in getting the finish up there!

 

[Descender]

Let me just say I absolutely despise this modern trend of turning epic mountain passes into MTFs and will NOT support the continuation of this policy.

Instead of that, I'd rather use Alpe d'Huez as a mountain pass.

 

[Descender]

"First thing's first: there's next to nothing at the top of Errozate. However, you could turn off at Artaburu (very shortly before the summit) and then descend and over a couple of brief climbs (like the Giro stage to Pescocostanzo in 2008) to finish at Hegichouria or even descend into Larrau and finish on the Port de Larrau.

As to Mont du Chat - lots of options as it's just outside Le-Bourget-du-Lac and thus very close to Chambéry.

On the same mountain there is the Col du Chat and the Col d'Épine. To the east there is the Col de la Clusaz, to the north there's Ontex, to the northeast there's the Col du Sapenay, Mont Clergeon, to the south there's the Col du Granier and the Col de la Cluse, and just a little further to the north there's the Col du Grand Colombier."

More from LS.

The Mont du Chat options sound exciting!

Instead of coupling Larrau with Errozate, one could climb Arnostegi from its hardest side, 13kms at 7,5% with the first 7kms at 11,2% and a full km at 17%. Then down and straight up to Errozate, or down again through Artanburu.

 

[benpounder]

Okay, I don't remember the Ausbisque situation. But with Tourmalet and Galibier I thought it was basically a sense of It's the centenary year for using this mountain range. This mountain is one of the most legendary. To hell it the slight difficulties we may have in getting the finish up there!

That sounds about right.

As for Greg's initial point, a Colle dell'Angello MTF would be awesome (66.8km@3.6% - 21.3km@6.8% - 8.7km@10%), as would the actual top of Col de la Madeleine from the south (20km@7.9%). I'd like to see the Giro use Monte Grappa more (18.2km@8.1%), and how about a finish atop Passo dello Stelvio (24.7km@7.5%). And without question, a MTF using Col du Télégraphe/Col du Galibier (35.5km@5.7%).

[my edit] Added lengths and gradients

 

[RedheadDane]

Instead of that, I'd rather use Alpe d'Huez as a mountain pass.

I hear the descent is rather tricky!

 

[The Hitch]

Im in the camp that wants to see descent finishes more often. t.

I think this years Tour had too many MTFs.

It feels to me as frustrating as reading the story of Sisyphus.

He rolls a rock up a mountain and has to watch it back down again.

The riders push their bikes up a mountain then the Gods (in this case organisers) say "well take it from here thank you very much", bring everything back down again and tell the riders to go up another mountain.


More stages like Madeline 2010 which was the best mountain stage of recent tdfs. Favourites came in in group after group.

Id prefer less flat in between, but when riders face just a climb and descent before the finish they will go for it.

That sounds about right.

As for Greg's initial point, a Colle dell'Angello MTF would be awesome (66.8km@3.6% - 21.3km@6.8% - 8.7km@10%), as would the actual top of Col de la Madeleine from the south (20km@7.9%). I'd like to see the Giro use Monte Grappa more (18.2km@8.1%), and how about a finish atop Passo dello Stelvio (24.7km@7.5%). And without question, a MTF using Col du Télégraphe/Col du Galibier (35.5km@5.7%).

[my edit] Added lengths and gradients

Passo Stelvio will be in next years Giro.

I never realized Grappa was that great though.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

I never realized Grappa was that great though.

There are lots of ways to get to the top of Monte Grappa. CBB has 5 though there are allegedly 9.

The 5 they have are:
from Possagno (23,8km, 6,2%) - this is more like two climbs, since the first 12km are brutal, the section from 10,5 to 12,5km has sections at 18%, 22% and over 10%; then you have 3-4km downhill, a short flat, a few km at just 4-5% before ramping right back up in the last 3km with a short bit at 13%

from Caupo (28,9km, 4,9%) - much less evil, few truly brutal sections but quite a lot of inconsistencies and short descents/false flats.

from Seren (21,2km, 6,3%) - this one is really nasty from about 5km to 10km, then after that you have a long, relatively benign stretch at about 6-7%, a short descent then a fairly steep last 2 km.

from Semonzo (19km, 8,1%) - this appears to be the route benpounder refers to - starting and finishing points often vary. This one hits you with a section at 13% near the start, then ramps up mostly consistently but for a couple of very short respites and a short stretch of false flat. The steepest sections are from 12-14km and in the last 3km again, with the last 500m at 12,5%.

from Romano d'Ezzelino (26,5km, 5,9%) - this is probably the most benign route in that it's the one without the brutal 10%+ sections.

Personally, I think that the Possagno route would make for the most exciting stage finish.

 

[roundabout]

I think the Baby giro finished on the Grappa last year.

*goes to check the profiles*

Edit: from Caupo

Edit 2: there's also this Grappa

http://www.salite.ch/11261.asp?Mappa=

and this Grappa

http://www.salite.ch/10909.asp?Mappa=

But I have no idea how rideable they are

 

[icefire]

After hearing a statement like 'The Tour of France shouldn't be decided on a descent' and reading posts in this thread I see the lack of downhill finishes is miseducating both riders and cycling fans.

On the geography/history department:
The Agnello side everyone refers to is in Italy, not France.
And Stelvio was MTF in the 1975 Giro last stage. Nothing was decided there as the first two in GC finished together.

 

[Descender]

I just fail to see how in order to honour a classic climb you have to ride only half of it.

 

[Descender]

I hear the descent is rather tricky!

All the better if it is.

 

[RedheadDane]

All the better if it is.

I here there's no road!

Hmm wait...

GO BIRDIE!!

 

[gregrowlerson]

After hearing a statement like 'The Tour of France shouldn't be decided on a descent' and reading posts in this thread I see the lack of downhill finishes is miseducating both riders and cycling fans.

On the geography/history department:
The Agnello side everyone refers to is in Italy, not France.
And Stelvio was MTF in the 1975 Giro last stage. Nothing was decided there as the first two in GC finished together.

I am an advocate for different MTF's rather than more of them.

In fact I would have prefered the Ju-Plaix in place of Alp 'duez this year, feeling that 3 MTF's was enough, and that the only thing lacking from the mountains stages was a descent finish after a difficult climb. Next year I think that the TDF could get away with as few as 2 MTF's. Everyone gets

But seriously, if you also had stages concluding soon after the Romme/Columbiere and Perysourde, plus a MTT, then there would still be a lot of decisive climbing in the race (could also throw in a couple of hilltop finishers).

I understand that the celebration of the mountains was why they included finishers on Tourmalet and Galibier, but the point is that it proves that such difficult liguistic finishers are not impossible, and since the Tour is the biggest race in cycling, shouldn't they go a little out of their way sometimes to make potentially great stages? It's not as if they have a small budget.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

I understand that the celebration of the mountains was why they included finishers on Tourmalet and Galibier, but the point is that it proves that such difficult liguistic finishers are not impossible, and since the Tour is the biggest race in cycling, shouldn't they go a little out of their way sometimes to make potentially great stages? It's not as if they have a small budget.

But the thing is, until this year's race, when everybody still had the energy in week 3 since the organisers hadn't bothered putting any obstacles in the first 2 weeks, these have been some of the most exciting stages of the race recently:

2010 Madeleine stage (descent + 10km flat)
2009 Le-Grand-Bornand stage (descent)
2008 Jausiers stage (descent)

Compare to the Giro:
2011 Rifugio Gardeccia (short MTF)
2010 Aprica (shallow, easy climb)
2010 Grappa (descent, 15km flat)
2010 Montalcino (intermediate stage)
2009 Pinerolo (short, steep final climb, descent)
2008 Pescocostanzo (short easy final climb)

There's plenty of excitement to be had without an MTF by including these mythical passes as final climbs, or by making the final climb too short or too easy to form large gaps, meaning the attacks have to be brought forward. In a way this is what happened in the Tour this year anyway; the Pinerolo stage was the best designed but unfortunately the route meant it wasn't quite as punishing as the Giro's similar 2009 stage. The Galibier, though mythical, isn't especially steep, which is why Schleck had to attack earlier on. The more conventional mountain stages were actually the more disappointing ones, although in the defence of the organisers, there was nothing wrong with stage 14 to Plateau de Beille, it was a well-designed stage, but the riders just didn't help them.

 

[Captain_Cavman]

After hearing a statement like 'The Tour of France shouldn't be decided on a descent' and reading posts in this thread I see the lack of downhill finishes is miseducating both riders and cycling fans.

...

Not sure of the point you're trying to make but I'm hoping that that Schleck quote acts like the little boy pointing out the Emperor's lack of clothing.

How can it be that one of the most highly rated GT riders of the era can't descend or TT? Something's gone wrong somewhere and hopefully his comments will cause people to rethink their attitude to MTFs; personally I don't think there should be any in a GT.

 

[Magnus]

I here there's no road!

Hmm wait...

GO BIRDIE!!

There is a road. Over Col de Sarenne.

 

[gregrowlerson]

How can it be that one of the most highly rated GT riders of the era can't descend or TT? Something's gone wrong somewhere and hopefully his comments will cause people to rethink their attitude to MTFs; personally I don't think there should be any in a GT.

Tony Martin and his number 1 fan are probably with you on this one

 

[greenedge]

Hats off to CP for an exciting TDF route that had a worthy winner and second place Andy. ( i ditch him out in stage races but in GT's although he has not won one ever he will and is a potent threat )

 

[Captain_Cavman]

Tony Martin and his number 1 fan are probably with you on this one

I'm not sure that having no MTFs helps Tony Martin specifically; having no Ms would be better for him.

I'm all in favour of providing challenging climbs that should leave riders like Tony Martin way behind the leaders. It's just that having climbed up the mountain, they should have to get down off it again. If you were touring France by bike would you decide to stop for the day at a weather station atop Mt Ventoux?

 

[Dekker_Tifosi]

I actually would like a finish on some more unknown climbs. The Tour de France re-uses the same climbs over and over and over.

Why not use the Collet d'Allevard from the Dauphine this year for instance? Or try other new, more challenging, climbs... they have enough of them lying around, unused...