Cleaner peloton?

[Pedaaldanser]

So I hear these rumours about the peloton being cleaner these days, hard to believe of course. And yet, Bauke Mollema and Laurens ten Dam are ranked #3 and #4 and Dan Martin is ranked #8 currently. Did they suddenly open the forbidden jar or did everyone just get slower so the clean people can keep up in the mountains?

I find myself almost believing

A quote from Bauke Mollema comes to mind, he said this after stage 8: "I never was this good before, especially in the Tour de France."

 

[BYOP88]

Of course the peloton is cleaner. It has been since 2006 when everyone stopped doping, aside from the CERA stuff in 2008 and a few other (naughty small fish) guys getting popped.

 

[DirtyWorks]

For sure it's cleaner.

Check out all the clean team management in the WorldTour tier: http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showpost.php?p=1278624&postcount=1

To be fair, presumed clean(er) riders do not get beaten quite so badly outside the TdF.

However, the UCI's corruption factors into the rider's performances in unexpected/unknown ways. We know they favor riders, we know they suppress positives, we know critical anti-doping information is passing back to teams and leading to advantages. We just don't have current specifics.

 

[Bakhjulet]

So I hear these rumours about the peloton being cleaner these days, hard to believe of course. And yet, Bauke Mollema and Laurens ten Dam are ranked #3 and #4 and Dan Martin is ranked #8 currently. Did they suddenly open the forbidden jar or did everyone just get slower so the clean people can keep up in the mountains?

I find myself almost believing

A quote from Bauke Mollema comes to mind, he said this after stage 8: "I never was this good before, especially in the Tour de France."

In 2010 7-8 riders went up Ax 3 Domanies faster than Porte did this saturday Add to this that in 2010 the stage was ridden after the alpes. And in 2001, 2003 and 2005 the times were even better than in 2010. Sure, it's hard to compare times on a climb from different years, but anyway, maybe the time differences at least give an indication that the peloton now is somewhat cleaner.

 

[Alpechraxler]

fixed it for you

In 2010 7-8 riders went up Ax 3 Domanies faster than Porte did this saturday Add to this that in 2010 the stage was ridden after the alpes. And in 2001, 2003 and 2005 the times were even better than in 2010. Sure, it's hard to compare times on a climb from different years, but anyway, maybe the time differences at least give an indication that the grupetto now is somewhat cleaner.

 

[StyrbjornSterki]

Clean-er ? Maybe.

Clean? I am skeptical.


I first posted this in another thread. I based this on the premise that the last presumed clean (pre-Pharmstrong) TdF winner was Lemond, then I further went back to the most recent multi-winner previous to Greg to lend some perspective.

The speed shown for multi-TdF winners is an average of all their wins. Riders are listed in order of their first win.

From Lemond to Indurain (unproved, but widely believed to have been Le Tour's first EPO champion), the TdF suddenly grew 1.3 kph faster. Not only has the tour not relinquished that advantage, only three tours since 1995 have been slower that Indurain's fastest, and none of the 17 tours since has been slower than Indurain's second-fastest TdF winning speed.

Call me naive but if the sport were clean, I would expect to see the winners' speeds coming closer to Lemond's (and his world record-setting VO2max) than to Landis'.

 

[EnacheV]

average speed depends on the course to

maybe the way they design the circuit favors a greater avg speed, to be more spectacular/more audience on tv whatever

i don't think this avg speed has any relevance to the level of purity in the peleton

 

[icefire]

Clean-er ? Maybe.

Clean? I am skeptical.


I first posted this in another thread. I based this on the premise that the last presumed clean (pre-Pharmstrong) TdF winner was Lemond, then I further went back to the most recent multi-winner previous to Greg to lend some perspective.

The speed shown for multi-TdF winners is an average of all their wins. Riders are listed in order of their first win.

From Lemond to Indurain (unproved, but widely believed to have been Le Tour's first EPO champion), the TdF suddenly grew 1.3 kph faster. Not only has the tour not relinquished that advantage, only three tours since 1995 have been slower that Indurain's fastest, and none of the 17 tours since has been slower than Indurain's second-fastest TdF winning speed.

Call me naive but if the sport were clean, I would expect to see the winners' speeds coming closer to Lemond's (and his world record-setting VO2max) than to Landis'.

Average speeds as a global trend are indicative of improved performance but they are highly affected by the parcourse. Delgado could only win in the absence of Roche and Lemond and yet his avg speed is higher than that of the riders he couldn't beat.

 

[TheBean]

Average speeds as a global trend are indicative of improved performance but they are highly affected by the parcourse. Delgado could only win in the absence of Roche and Lemond and yet his avg speed is higher than that of the riders he couldn't beat.

Equipment matters, as well. Maybe not as much as some big spending recreational riders would like to think, bit it matters.

Hinault raced on a steel-framed bicycle with toe clips that probably weighed in at about 18-20 lbs. He had no aero bars, aero helmet, or super-breathable performance clothing. He rode 32 hole rims with steel spokes laced 3-cross, usually.

To compare riders from different generations, using different equipment, and over a different course with different weather is fun for the sake of conversation, but meaningless when it comes to making any kind of scientific comparrison.

If anything, the fact that the speeds are as close as the are is more of a testament to riders from Hinault's era being incredibly tough men!

 

[The Hitch]

I see Kreuziger (confirmed former Ferrari client ) is pushing out the best performances of his career now.

Funny that. Funny considering how well other Ferrari clients did this giro -

Scarponi -4th
Evans 3rd
Nibali - 1st (2 stage wins)

Visconti - new Di Luca/ Scarponi

then there is rogers of course pushing out his best numbers last year and still quite good this year.

 

[The Hitch]

Equipment matters, as well. Maybe not as much as some big spending recreational riders would like to think, bit it matters.

Hinault raced on a steel-framed bicycle with toe clips that probably weighed in at about 18-20 lbs. He had no aero bars, aero helmet, or super-breathable performance clothing. He rode 32 hole rims with steel spokes laced 3-cross, usually.

To compare riders from different generations, using different equipment, and over a different course with different weather is fun for the sake of conversation, but meaningless when it comes to making any kind of scientific comparrison.

If anything, the fact that the speeds are as close as the are is more of a testament to riders from Hinault's era being incredibly tough men!

Science of Sport said 20-30 years is the time it should take for equipment to catch up to doping.

So times now can be the same as Hinault. They should not however match Armstrong.

 

[180mmCrank]

The impact on all riders of how Armstrong was pursued and finally caught must be a factor in this.

I would say that it is likely that the doping is BOTH more sophisticated and that more riders are choosing not to dope. I don't believe it is simply accepted as part of the sport in quite the same way as it has been for the last 100 years.

AND I look at those athletes that have a prior performance record to protect ... Andy Schleck or Contador for example ... and wonder if a performance drop off is linked to a change in attitude to getting caught.

I must also say that I understand why the 'do they or don't they' conversation is so compelling for some I personally find it tiresome.

 

[roundabout]

I see Kreuziger (confirmed former Ferrari client ) is pushing out the best performances of his career now.

Funny that. Funny considering how well other Ferrari clients did this giro -

Scarponi -4th
Evans 3rd
Nibali - 1st (2 stage wins)

Visconti - new Di Luca/ Scarponi

then there is rogers of course pushing out his best numbers last year and still quite good this year.

Ah, the Ferrari client Scarponi who was paced on most climbs of note by [insert name] client Niemec.

 

[sniper]

A clean Martin beating a juiced Fuglsang?
Unlikely at best.

Would love to believe in the two dutchies, but they do look awefully skinny.

Also slighlty suspicious that both are peaking simultaneously.

 

[peterst6906]

Science of Sport said 20-30 years is the time it should take for equipment to catch up to doping.

The Sport of Science guys are good in several things, but that assessment is purely a personal judgement. It's not evidence based in any credible scientific way.

Their status as reasonable sport scientists doesn't mean everything they write should be accepted without question (as scientists I'm sure they would agree that everything they write should be questioned); and this is one statement that doesn't hold up well to questioning.

It may actually be right, but there is no way to know.

 

[Zam_Olyas]

A clean Martin beating a juiced Fuglsang?
Unlikely at best.

Would love to believe in the two dutchies, but they do look awefully skinny.

Also slighlty suspicious that both are peaking simultaneously.

welcome back, straight on to Garmin i see.

 

[peterst6906]

A clean Martin beating a juiced Fuglsang?
Unlikely at best.

Would love to believe in the two dutchies, but they do look awefully skinny.

Also slighlty suspicious that both are peaking simultaneously.

You didn't seriously post that photo as an example of what Ten Dam looks like in this year's tour did you?

 

[The Hitch]

Ah, the Ferrari client Scarponi who was paced on most climbs of note by [insert name] client Niemec.

Maybe i misread the lines between your post, but if your commentating on Przemek's nationality, I always made clear that chauvinism is one of the biggest obstacles to anti doping.

I would never hold someone to a different standard because of their nationality.

There are plenty prominent Polish athletes who "never tested positive" that I think doped.

 

[180mmCrank]

You didn't seriously post that photo as an example of what Ten Dam looks like in this year's tour did you?

LOL

(Did you photo shop the old kit onto a photo from this year's tour? )

 

[Zam_Olyas]

I don't think sniper watch cycling most of the times.

 

[The Hitch]

A clean Martin beating a juiced Fuglsang?
Unlikely at best.
.

Umm, it was a sprint. And Fuglsang is hardly the best rider out there.

You didn't seriously post that photo as an example of what Ten Dam looks like in this year's tour did you?

Looks more like this to me

 

[roundabout]

Maybe i misread the lines between your post, but if your commentating on Przemek's nationality, I always made clear that chauvinism is one of the biggest obstacles to anti doping.

I would never hold someone to a different standard because of their nationality.

There are plenty prominent Polish athletes who "never tested positive" that I think doped.

No, I like Niemec and have always thought that he should have gone to a bigger team sooner than he did.

My point is that Scarponi was rather underwhelming on the climbs in the Giro even if his final position was very good.

It's probably a bit naughty of me to use the client line on Niemec, but the point remains. He was a better climber than Scarponi in the Giro.

 

[peterst6906]

Looks more like this to me

Yep, just as good a choice as snipers. At least unibet had similar colors to Belkin. Rabo, not so much.

 

[sniper]

You didn't seriously post that photo as an example of what Ten Dam looks like in this year's tour did you?

the picture was meant to show how 'fat' he still was at Rabo...

Dutch female cyclist Marijn De Vries (befriend with both Mollema & Ten Dam) now on Dutch television explaining how Mollema has recently discovered the benefits of eating KENIAN BREAD: it increases the circulation of red bloodcells and additionally makes you feel less hungry.
I'm not kidding you.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

the picture was meant to show how 'fat' he still was at Rabo...

Dutch female cyclist Marijn De Vries (befriend with both Mollema & Ten Dam) now on Dutch television explaining how Mollema has recently discovered the benefits of eating KENIAN BREAD: it increases the circulation of red bloodcells and additionally makes you feel less hungry.
I'm not kidding you.

Is that with those extra nice escargots full of badzillah's in them? They taste gooooood.

Welcome back.