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Colombians Considered Clean?

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people forget about how suspicious Thomas was already as a classics rider before his amazing climbing transformation in 2015. a lot of people accuse van Aert and Van Der Poel of doping already, now imagine next year they can suddenly climb well enough to win the Tour de France. it has nothing to do with what country Thomas represents.

Bernal, on the other hand, might be the most plausibly clean winner of a Tour de France since Greg LeMond.
 
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Fergoose said:
Olympic champion Wiggins getting escorted by super-domestiques up every climb was more 'dominant' than Bernal stomping up the shortened stage?

I dont feel persecuted, I dont support Ineos and you may note the author of the Froome clinic thread. So I'm not sure why you interpreted it as such (Pinot, Bardet, Nibali and Sastre are probably my fav riders this century, not a Brit among them). What drives my perspective is that there is a something deeply amusing about individuals who will jump up and down about Olympic champs like Wiggins and Thomas and conspiracy theories about Cookson then having nothing to say about Egan. The silence is deafening and to me the situation mirrors the roadside fans who boo Thomas because he is a 'cheat' on terrible Sky but cheer Bernal who is on the same team and performing better than doping Thomas. It's a position I find worthy of comment.

As I say, I have no concerns about Bernal but if you think he is doping then fair enough.

- Olympic champion Thomas apparently merits 85 dedicated pages
- Olympic champion Wiggins apparently merits 92 dedicated pages
- Sky/Ineos apparently merits 1997 dedicated pages
- Bernal, the youngest TdF champ in a century on the same team - not even a thread

I think it is reasonable for me to suggest a Colombian is getting a comparatively easy ride and I look forward to the mental gymnastics that will take place in some quarters to reconcile the above inconsistency. Maybe Botero would have got no comment if he was working for Brailsford too. :p
Stop calling them "Olympic champion" as if track riding is in any way relevant to winning grand tours. Track riders winning grand tours is akin to middle distance runners winning marathons. If it ever happens alarm bells better be ringing all over the place, just like with Thomas and Wiggins. That's why they have long threads dedicated to them. Nothing about them suddenly pounding everyone in the mountains makes any sense, and Wiggins in particular finishing 3rd in 2009 raises more red flags than a communist rally.

Bernal on the other hand has always been an extremely talented climber. The most suspicious thing about him is the team he rides for, not the way he rides. I'd even go as far as saying Bernal is one of the more believeable riders of the last 30 years. Not that it takes much, mind you.
 
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zlev11 said:
people forget about how suspicious Thomas was already as a classics rider before his amazing climbing transformation in 2015. a lot of people accuse van Aert and Van Der Poel of doping already, now imagine next year they can suddenly climb well enough to win the Tour de France. it has nothing to do with what country Thomas represents.

Bernal, on the other hand, might be the most plausibly clean winner of a Tour de France since Greg LeMond.
Yes, basically there is one thing that really gets people suss: "amazing transformation." Especially on the climbing front.

Say what you will about Bernal, one simply cannot apply that predicate to him.

Whereas Thomas, Froome, Wiggins: yes, yes and yes. It's actually very simple.
 
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What is the debate here? All the top road cyclists dope. I hate to upset you all with this news. They can't race as hard as this tour just gone for 3 weeks and not dope. 22 year olds should not be winning the Tour De France.

What else would you all like to know?
 
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Look at Thomas De Gendt. He can win solo by holding off 20 men lapping it out hard as they can. The gap could be 2 minutes with 20km to go and still 2 minutes at the finish And he could go out and do it all again the next day. Not doping? Yeah Right
 
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Craigee said:
Look at Thomas De Gendt. He can win solo by holding off 20 men lapping it out hard as they can. The gap could be 2 minutes with 20km to go and still 2 minutes at the finish And he could go out and do it all again the next day. Not doping? Yeah Right
But using your logic, the 20 men chasing him are also doping...so surely they cancel each other out. But de Gendt still wins :confused:
 
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The Hegelian said:
zlev11 said:
people forget about how suspicious Thomas was already as a classics rider before his amazing climbing transformation in 2015. a lot of people accuse van Aert and Van Der Poel of doping already, now imagine next year they can suddenly climb well enough to win the Tour de France. it has nothing to do with what country Thomas represents.

Bernal, on the other hand, might be the most plausibly clean winner of a Tour de France since Greg LeMond.
Yes, basically there is one thing that really gets people suss: "amazing transformation." Especially on the climbing front.

Say what you will about Bernal, one simply cannot apply that predicate to him.

Whereas Thomas, Froome, Wiggins: yes, yes and yes. It's actually very simple.
I'm of the same mind on this point about Bernal. The big issue with which I continue to struggle is that Bernal rides for Ineos. If one believes that Wiggins, Froome, and Thomas could not have achieved their TDF wins without pharmaceutical "insurance," and if one also believes that such programs would have to be approved/acknowledged/condoned by team management, then it's hard to imagine that the team would not provide similar resources for their co-team-leader (Bernal) going into the tour. Still, to me, the performances from Bernal in this year's tour looked like the efforts of a prodigiously talented and well-trained young rider who rode within himself and put himself out there when it counted most, in week 3. He was not the strongest climber in week 2 but looked to be the strongest in week 3--perhaps holding onto form better than rivals. Recall his time trial was good but not great, consistent with what might be expected of a strong rider of his size/weight. He lost time in that stage to a number of top GC performers, including Thomas, Alaphilippe, and Pinot, but still limited losses. None of his performances looked alien. All subjective observations, of course.
 
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JosephK said:
The Hegelian said:
zlev11 said:
people forget about how suspicious Thomas was already as a classics rider before his amazing climbing transformation in 2015. a lot of people accuse van Aert and Van Der Poel of doping already, now imagine next year they can suddenly climb well enough to win the Tour de France. it has nothing to do with what country Thomas represents.

Bernal, on the other hand, might be the most plausibly clean winner of a Tour de France since Greg LeMond.
Yes, basically there is one thing that really gets people suss: "amazing transformation." Especially on the climbing front.

Say what you will about Bernal, one simply cannot apply that predicate to him.

Whereas Thomas, Froome, Wiggins: yes, yes and yes. It's actually very simple.
I'm of the same mind on this point about Bernal. The big issue with which I continue to struggle is that Bernal rides for Ineos. If one believes that Wiggins, Froome, and Thomas could not have achieved their TDF wins without pharmaceutical "insurance," and if one also believes that such programs would have to be approved/acknowledged/condoned by team management, then it's hard to imagine that the team would not provide similar resources for their co-team-leader (Bernal) going into the tour. Still, to me, the performances from Bernal in this year's tour looked like the efforts of a prodigiously talented and well-trained young rider who rode within himself and put himself out there when it counted most, in week 3. He was not the strongest climber in week 2 but looked to be the strongest in week 3--perhaps holding onto form better than rivals. Recall his time trial was good but not great, consistent with what might be expected of a strong rider of his size/weight. He lost time in that stage to a number of top GC performers, including Thomas, Alaphilippe, and Pinot, but still limited losses. None of his performances looked alien. All subjective observations, of course.

I agree with this. Although it appears the Ineos/Sky tuned down their usage this year compared to previous years. I won't say he's clean, but Bernal is at least believable. I'd also add to this that if you believe Froome/Thomas, et all are doping and it's team wide (similar to US Postal or Kelme) then Bernal also must be part of the program. Same goes for Quickstep and Evenepoel. However, again in Bernal's case, at least he looks believable in this year's Tour.
 
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brownbobby said:
Craigee said:
Look at Thomas De Gendt. He can win solo by holding off 20 men lapping it out hard as they can. The gap could be 2 minutes with 20km to go and still 2 minutes at the finish And he could go out and do it all again the next day. Not doping? Yeah Right
But using your logic, the 20 men chasing him are also doping...so surely they cancel each other out. But de Gendt still wins :confused:
I was thinking the 20 were not doping when I said that, Obviously. Most pro riders never win anything but you get the same old riders like De Gendt who are juiced up to do the impossible. You do see his big performances surely. Groups cannot catch him when he's on. I said all the TOP riders dope. Not all riders. The top riders are likely to have positives covered up. Andre Agassi admitted years later to taking a banned substance after getting caught with a positive test but the authorities believed his reasoning and it was never made public.

The world is corrupt.
 
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Craigee said:
brownbobby said:
Craigee said:
Look at Thomas De Gendt. He can win solo by holding off 20 men lapping it out hard as they can. The gap could be 2 minutes with 20km to go and still 2 minutes at the finish And he could go out and do it all again the next day. Not doping? Yeah Right
But using your logic, the 20 men chasing him are also doping...so surely they cancel each other out. But de Gendt still wins :confused:
I was thinking the 20 were not doping when I said that, Obviously. Most pro riders never win anything but you get the same old riders like De Gendt who are juiced up to do the impossible. You do see his big performances surely. Groups cannot catch him when he's on. I said all the TOP riders dope. Not all riders. The top riders are likely to have positives covered up. Andre Agassi admitted years later to taking a banned substance after getting caught with a positive test but the authorities believed his reasoning and it was never made public.

The world is corrupt.
Ah ok...i would argue that 'top road cyclist' applies to anyone riding at World Tour Level, even more so those completing Grand Tours.

...and yeah of course some of De Gendts wins are astonishing, but on the flip side he's very selective on which stages he targets, is only ever really competing for wins against fellow breakaway artists/stage hunters as he's no threat to the GC, and rarely (if ever?) puts together such performances back to back.

Thats a whole different level to being competitive and at the front end of the race day after day for 3 weeks.
 
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I agree with this. Although it appears the Ineos/Sky tuned down their usage this year compared to previous years. I won't say he's clean, but Bernal is at least believable. I'd also add to this that if you believe Froome/Thomas, et all are doping and it's team wide (similar to US Postal or Kelme) then Bernal also must be part of the program. Same goes for Quickstep and Evenepoel. However, again in Bernal's case, at least he looks believable in this year's Tour.
I would agree after watching Bernal in California and seeing a relatively mistake-free Tour. Having said that it is also naïve to think that enhancements aren't used on the junior and other emerging levels. If Bernal has a team with a program it would also be naïve to think that management wouldn't want the insurance. It's tough to imagine a 21 year old lasting 3 weeks...period.
 
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Stop calling them "Olympic champion" as if track riding is in any way relevant to winning grand tours. Track riders winning grand tours is akin to middle distance runners winning marathons. If it ever happens alarm bells better be ringing all over the place, just like with Thomas and Wiggins. That's why they have long threads dedicated to them. Nothing about them suddenly pounding everyone in the mountains makes any sense, and Wiggins in particular finishing 3rd in 2009 raises more red flags than a communist rally.

Bernal on the other hand has always been an extremely talented climber. The most suspicious thing about him is the team he rides for, not the way he rides. I'd even go as far as saying Bernal is one of the more believeable riders of the last 30 years. Not that it takes much, mind you.
Good point regarding middle distance runners and marathons.

Reminds me of Mo Farah doing a trial 1500m a couple seconds off world record pace (peak EPO 90's world record pace at that). Especially remember - Steve "when others run 3.35 they must be doping" Cram, suddenly relaxing his standards for detecting doping in the distance
 
Good point regarding middle distance runners and marathons.

Reminds me of Mo Farah doing a trial 1500m a couple seconds off world record pace (peak EPO 90's world record pace at that). Especially remember - Steve "when others run 3.35 they must be doping" Cram, suddenly relaxing his standards for detecting doping in the distance
Looking at today's Vuelta finish there is some rarified air in Columbia and certain Eastern European environments.
 
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Stop calling them "Olympic champion" as if track riding is in any way relevant to winning grand tours. Track riders winning grand tours is akin to middle distance runners winning marathons. If it ever happens alarm bells better be ringing all over the place, just like with Thomas and Wiggins. That's why they have long threads dedicated to them. Nothing about them suddenly pounding everyone in the mountains makes any sense, and Wiggins in particular finishing 3rd in 2009 raises more red flags than a communist rally.

Bernal on the other hand has always been an extremely talented climber. The most suspicious thing about him is the team he rides for, not the way he rides. I'd even go as far as saying Bernal is one of the more believeable riders of the last 30 years. Not that it takes much, mind you.
Glad to see the new forum, hopefully it works better now. Okay, so Olympic Champion is entirely relevant, it demonstrates a baseline of physical performance... on a bike. In what way is that not incredibly relevant in a race typically favouring strong time trialists over pure climbers? Which brings me to...

If Bernal is such a credible victor of the TdF, what other climbers who won the TdF similarly impressed? It is really rare for climbers to win it, be they confirmed dopers or not. A winner almost always has to be one of the tio finishers in the ITT. Heck, even Pantani really struggled. In Contador's victory years he was aceing the ITT.

I'd argue that it is far more suspicious to win the TdF as a climber than it is being ferried up the mountain by peak condition Poels / Porte / Rodgers to suppress attacks, then gaining winning margins in the ITT (like Thomas and Wiggins). Factor in that Bernal also did this with arguably the weakest performing Sky/Ineos domestique assistance and a month later the lack of Bernal thread just gets more baffling.

I think the forum thinks our young Slovenian superstar is also from South America. He isn't even getting as much clinic love as a Yates, or even a JTL! :D

I'm not going to call racism or bigotry, I dont know or care about the nationality of posters. But I will call double standards and hypocrisy (in general terms at the forum community) for the treatment of Bernal.

Now that you've read this you can all go and make a thread on how James Knox or Teo GH are the most disgustingly unbelievable riders you have ever seen. :p
 
If Bernal is such a credible victor of the TdF, what other climbers who won the TdF similarly impressed? is really rare for climbers to win it, be they confirmed dopers or not. A winner almost always has to be one of the tio finishers in the ITT. Heck, even Pantani really struggled. In Contador's victory years he was aceing the ITT.
Can you name a single winner of the TDF who wasn't a climber? Climbers always win the Tour, the question is how well they have to do in the ITTs. If there is only one, and it's relatively short, like this year, then the winner doesn't have to be a great time trialer. The winner does have to be a great climber, because there are far more opportunities to lose time on climbs than there are to lose time on TTs.

Being a great TTer is not essential to winning the Tour. Sastre was not a great TTer, Schleck was terrible at the chronology. Rasmussen probably would have won a Tour if he hadn't been kicked off his team.
 
Can you name a single winner of the TDF who wasn't a climber? Climbers always win the Tour, the question is how well they have to do in the ITTs. If there is only one, and it's relatively short, like this year, then the winner doesn't have to be a great time trialer. The winner does have to be a great climber, because there are far more opportunities to lose time on climbs than there are to lose time on TTs.

Being a great TTer is not essential to winning the Tour. Sastre was not a great TTer, Schleck was terrible at the chronology. Rasmussen probably would have won a Tour if he hadn't been kicked off his team.
The only years it has been won by someone who couldn't pull out a top5 ITT in the past couple of decades are those you name. Sastre, Schleck & Bernal (maybe Nibali too, as his ITT isn't usually a top5). That is a total of three or four years out of twenty. Sure, the guys in the other 17 years could climb well to varying degrees, but most typically had support of the strongest, or second strongest set of domestiques. Top5 ITT supported by strongest set of domestiques is the formula for TdF victory, even in years when the time trial kms are limited. The shallower gradients at the TdF even mean that many of their climbs do not suit pure climbers, instead favouring diesels that cant compete at the same level at the Giro or Vuelta.

You'd be really stretching the definition of "climber" to say Wiggins, Thomas and Evans were climbers who could blow away the opposition on the climbs. They grit their teeth, hang on and (in the case of Thomas) launch a punchy attack with their track speed within the final km. More historically Lemond, Indurain etc won the TdF far more regularly than superior specialist climbers.
 
The only years it has been won by someone who couldn't pull out a top5 ITT in the past couple of decades are those you name. Sastre, Schleck & Bernal (maybe Nibali too, as his ITT isn't usually a top5). That is a total of three or four years out of twenty. Sure, the guys in the other 17 years could climb well to varying degrees, but most typically had support of the strongest, or second strongest set of domestiques. Top5 ITT supported by strongest set of domestiques is the formula for TdF victory, even in years when the time trial kms are limited. The shallower gradients at the TdF even mean that many of their climbs do not suit pure climbers, instead favouring diesels that cant compete at the same level at the Giro or Vuelta.
LA won nearly every MTF in every year of his dominance. When he didn't win, it was because he didn't need to by that point, and was riding more conservatively. Contador in his prime was considered the best climber in the peloton, and Froome has consistently been one of the best climbers in the Tours he has won. That right there is 13 Tours won by top climbers.

You'd be really stretching the definition of "climber" to say Wiggins, Thomas and Evans were climbers who could blow away the opposition on the climbs. They grit their teeth, hang on and (in the case of Thomas) launch a punchy attack with their track speed within the final km.
Wiggins and Thomas we've discussed extensively in the Clinic, but the bottom line is that they climbed better than everyone else (except Froome for Wiggins) in the Tours they won. The fact that they weren't considered good climbers going into the Tour is irrelevant. They won their particular Tour because they climbed with the best. Evans was consistently good in the Tour and other GT, he didn't do that just by dominating time trials and hanging on in the mountains. He gained time on most of his rivals in the TT, but he didn't dominate them.

More historically Lemond, Indurain etc won the TdF far more regularly than superior specialist climbers.
In those days, TTs were longer and more frequent, and still you had to be a very good climber to win. I would hardly say Lemond was primarily a TT specialist. Indurain was, but again, he couldn't have won those Tours on just the strength of TT. Real TT specialists like Cancellara and Martin have never been competitive in Tours or other GT.
 
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Glad to see the new forum, hopefully it works better now. Okay, so Olympic Champion is entirely relevant, it demonstrates a baseline of physical performance... on a bike. In what way is that not incredibly relevant in a race typically favouring strong time trialists over pure climbers? Which brings me to...

If Bernal is such a credible victor of the TdF, what other climbers who won the TdF similarly impressed? It is really rare for climbers to win it, be they confirmed dopers or not. A winner almost always has to be one of the tio finishers in the ITT. Heck, even Pantani really struggled. In Contador's victory years he was aceing the ITT.

I'd argue that it is far more suspicious to win the TdF as a climber than it is being ferried up the mountain by peak condition Poels / Porte / Rodgers to suppress attacks, then gaining winning margins in the ITT (like Thomas and Wiggins). Factor in that Bernal also did this with arguably the weakest performing Sky/Ineos domestique assistance and a month later the lack of Bernal thread just gets more baffling.

I think the forum thinks our young Slovenian superstar is also from South America. He isn't even getting as much clinic love as a Yates, or even a JTL! :D
come on, Slovenia is Colombia... literally:frikkin' 6000 m hotel... sleep high and train at the sea level
 
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