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Colombians Considered Clean?

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Mar 31, 2010
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craig1985 said:
Duarte's positive doping case to be re-opened | Cyclingnews.com

I assume naturally high testerone levels, or something he had a TUE for?
yes indeed. also uci has confirmed this.

we are talking here about colombians in european peloton. in colombia there was and may still be doping too but never to the extent of europe because of money issues as well as not the expertise that teams like us postal had. still riders in south america getting caught on anabolic steroids and epo says enough. buenahora getting caught in vuelta colombia 2008 on extreme low dosis of ephedrine(!) and was suspended for 2 years... in europe that would never happen
 
Aug 17, 2009
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I don't see any issue with Colombian cyclists competing in Europe. The Colombians I have met(non- cyclists) are competitive and confident. They remind me a lot of Germans, no problem in coming to the front.
I do not think doping is an issue with Colombia, just great climbers.
 
craig1985 said:
Whatever happened to Daniel Rincon? He rode one year at USPS (2004) and then disappeared, now if he was doping, he was certainly doing it wrong.
Or maybe Colombians do not get as much benefit from doping as Europeans or Americans who have bigger body and muscle build. Another of the main disadvantages when they dope is that they have a high hematocrit to begin with so the effect of any O2 vector would be minimize.

Third reason is money. As a group or as a whole the Colombian teams probably did not have the access or money that other bigger European teams had in the 90's to better Doctors or techniques. Result: Extinction from the European peloton.

I think there is a poster with user name "Proff" who explained the first two points better than I did.

Whether they dope more or they dope less, how do we know this?? Doping is a secret practice so there is no good statistic other than rumors and positives. There is no way of knowing that. The only thing that we know is that we are all humans and we all make the same kind of mistakes than in other places. In order to know whether they dope or not I use the same criteria that I use for the European riders. Watts/kg results, natural talent shows early, rumors, etc.

I am Colombian so I am bias anyway, so if you ask me I'd say that they are cleanish.:D But I know for a fact that there are some that are not clean at all.

As for the guy who said that Pablo Escobar had or owned cycling teams, he/she has been watching too much TV. Please stop mixing the Cocaine stories with the cycling stories because they are just plain stupid.
 
Ryo Hazuki said:
yes indeed. also uci has confirmed this.

we are talking here about colombians in european peloton. in colombia there was and may still be doping too but never to the extent of europe because of money issues as well as not the expertise that teams like us postal had. still riders in south america getting caught on anabolic steroids and epo says enough. buenahora getting caught in vuelta colombia 2008 on extreme low dosis of ephedrine(!) and was suspended for 2 years... in europe that would never happen
Some of the cases brought up here happened in South America but outside of Colombia, and then there's also Castelblanco. I think France is in Europe.

I think the decline and rise of Colombian cycling might be a clue as to the general dirtiness of the European pro peloton, but not because the Colombians are a bunch of good-natured hobbits.
 
Mar 31, 2010
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hrotha said:
Some of the cases brought up here happened in South America but outside of Colombia, and then there's also Castelblanco. I think France is in Europe.

I think the decline and rise of Colombian cycling might be a clue as to the general dirtiness of the European pro peloton, but not because the Colombians are a bunch of good-natured hobbits.
castelblanco was never caught on doping in europe.
 
Escarabajo said:
As for the guy who said that Pablo Escobar had or owned cycling teams, he/she has been watching too much TV. Please stop mixing the Cocaine stories with the cycling stories because they are just plain stupid.
That's not completely accurate, Pablo Escobar was a bit of a cycling fan, not as much as he liked football, but he still gave some money to Colombian cyclists too, and I think his brother was a successful amateur/semi-pro at one time (before Pablo became a drug lord I think). How much all that stuff has to do with the up- and then downturn of Colombian cycling I couldn't say, but it's not 100% unrelated.

eta: here's something the guy from Cycling Inquisition wrote about it, including a picture of a rider in Pablo Escobar sponsored gear.
 
Le breton said:
Do you have anything to back up what you are saying? Maybe you were not born yet and don't know it, but Fignon entered at least one stage race in Colombia, he even acquired a funny nickname : "filet-mignon".

If he despised Colombians as your comment imply, why would he have raced in their country?
in his own words:
http://www.amazon.com/Were-Young-Carefree-Laurent-Fignon/dp/0224083198
and you may want to check out the web and the past threads where this topic was brought up.

Fignon went to Colombia to race the Clasico RCN due to the "appearance fees" paid by the organizers--I remember well how arrogant and indifferent was he, that he couldn't even give a post race interview. Now on the other hand, I witnessed the ITT in Bogota when Bernard Hinault won it, but Herrera got the overall--and he was very humble & sort of having fun during the race- the same has been said about Kelly, Lemond, Roche & many more who participated in the Race.

if you are interested in the Clasico RCN history- this is a link with videos & info:
http://www.clasicorcn.com.co/category/cronicas/
 
Mar 31, 2010
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hrotha said:
He couldn't have been caught for EPO in 1999 before there was an EPO test, but when those 1999 Tour de France samples were retested his were positive. Same with Armstrong, Beltrán and Hamburger.
said lequipe yes.... nothing official at all. if that's the best you can come up with as far as colombians doping in europe...
 
Mar 31, 2010
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spalco said:
That's not completely accurate, Pablo Escobar was a bit of a cycling fan, not as much as he liked football, but he still gave some money to Colombian cyclists too, and I think his brother was a successful amateur/semi-pro at one time (before Pablo became a drug lord I think). How much all that stuff has to do with the up- and then downturn of Colombian cycling I couldn't say, but it's not 100% unrelated.

eta: here's something the guy from Cycling Inquisition wrote about it, including a picture of a rider in Pablo Escobar sponsored gear.

that was only for track cycling as pablo's brother was a talented trackcylist I believe. he never sponsored any pro team in or outside of colombia. it was all football, he never liked cycling, only his brother did.
 
Mar 31, 2010
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hfer07 said:
in his own words:
http://www.amazon.com/Were-Young-Carefree-Laurent-Fignon/dp/0224083198
and you may want to check out the web and the past threads where this topic was brought up.

Fignon went to Colombia to race the Clasico RCN due to the "appearance fees" paid by the organizers--I remember well how arrogant and indifferent was he, that he couldn't even give a post race interview. Now on the other hand, I witnessed the ITT in Bogota when Bernard Hinault won it, but Herrera got the overall--and he was very humble & sort of having fun during the race- the same has been said about Kelly, Lemond, Roche & many more who participated in the Race.

if you are interested in the Clasico RCN history- this is a link with videos & info:
http://www.clasicorcn.com.co/category/cronicas/
bernard hinault has always been a fan of colombian cycling ever since he first went there. the the no nonsense way of cycling and attacking, the passion of both cyclists and fans, last year at tour the avenir hinault himself was almost happier than the colombians winning it. be sure he will push hard within aso to get cep in dauphinee and tour de france for the coming years. prudhomme is an enthusiast as well btw.
 
Ryo Hazuki said:
said lequipe yes.... nothing official at all. if that's the best you can come up with as far as colombians doping in europe...
I'm afraid we won't be able to reach an agreement, then, if you only accept official sources from the kind of corrupt organizations that deal with cycling. L'Equipe is a serious source. It's about as much of a proof as cycling fans are ever going to get. I'm sorry but your optimism about the sport is unfounded and very naïve.
 
Feb 24, 2011
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Ryo, you are getting extremely biased and that's annoying. Moreover, it makes you lose credibility. I'm colombian too, but I can accept facts.

Pablo Escobar himself (not only his brother) sponsored cycling. Not by owing a cycling team like his brother (and that is pointless, anyways, because Bicicletas Ositto was a gift from Pablo), but he did quite a few donations to colombian teams riding the Tour. Initially, personal donations, but later on using the Group Inverca as a facade (Inverca was related to other sports, like football, when they controlled the team Independiente Santa Fe).

When Bernal was the director of Coldeportes (the principal guvernment sports office), he sent a letter to Pablo Escobar, asking him to join the Corporación Tour de Francia, and that would confirm the financial aid Escobar did to cycling in Colombia.

That being said, I don't think the financial aid from Escobar to cycling did indeed vastly improved the colombian level. First of all, because most of this money was stolen by the sports manager in the government offices (a lot of them were later killed by the same drug cartels), but also because if it was true that cyclists had access to huge ammounts of money by then, it wouldn't make sense not to start using Ferrari's kind of programs at the beginning of the 90's.
 
Ildabaoth said:
Ryo, you are getting extremely biased and that's annoying. Moreover, it makes you lose credibility. I'm colombian too, but I can accept facts.

Pablo Escobar himself (not only his brother) sponsored cycling. Not by owing a cycling team like his brother (and that is pointless, anyways, because Bicicletas Ositto was a gift from Pablo), but he did quite a few donations to colombian teams riding the Tour. Initially, personal donations, but later on using the Group Inverca as a facade (Inverca was related to other sports, like football, when they controlled the team Independiente Santa Fe).

When Bernal was the director of Coldeportes (the principal guvernment sports office), he sent a letter to Pablo Escobar, asking him to join the Corporación Tour de Francia, and that would confirm the financial aid Escobar did to cycling in Colombia.

That being said, I don't think the financial aid from Escobar to cycling did indeed vastly improved the colombian level. First of all, because most of this money was stolen by the sports manager in the government offices (a lot of them were later killed by the same drug cartels), but also because if it was true that cyclists had access to huge ammounts of money by then, it wouldn't make sense not to start using Ferrari's kind of programs at the beginning of the 90's.


Good post.

The funny thing is that neither Ryo nor the other big Colombian cheerleader on these boards DAOTEC (whose presence evades us for the same reason as Valverde) are actually Colombian.

They are both Dutch.


I have no idea why but while Ryos blind cheerleading on the pro section (picking Duarte or Serpa or Soler for every race etc) has antagonised other the other Dutchies, there seems to be something about your cyclists that inspires such support from them.
 
IMHO any relation of Pablo Escobar with cycling has no bearing with the topic in hand here guys. The main teams were Cafe de Colombia, Pilas Varta and Postobon. Later on Kelme came into the scene but was considered more of a hybrid team between Spanish riders and Colombians. So let's forget about Pablo please. You can create your own thread in the General section related to Pablo if that's what you want.
 
Nov 10, 2009
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Escarabajo said:
Fignon did say some bad things about the Colombians while he was alive. In his book he said some things that really were not truth and I can account for that. You can google it if you want, but it is well known in this Forum the dislike of Fignon for the Colombians.
OK, I believe you, I just had not heard that before. It does not quite fit my idea of Fignon, I would rather have imagined him reading Garcia Marquez between stages :D.
Anyway, Fignon was never a favourite of mine, too aloof and cocky, a good commentator though. About 4-5 years ago he was giving away the cups and other prizes in a cyclosport event I had entered and finished second in my age category. When I saw him shaking the hands of all the younger recipients I was thinking about how to avoid shaking his hand as I considered him - without proof other his see-saw results throughout his career - to be among the worst of the dopers. In the end somebody else gave me my cup and prize and I didn't have to shake his hand.
 
Mar 31, 2010
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Ildabaoth said:
Ryo, you are getting extremely biased and that's annoying. Moreover, it makes you lose credibility. I'm colombian too, but I can accept facts.

Pablo Escobar himself (not only his brother) sponsored cycling. Not by owing a cycling team like his brother (and that is pointless, anyways, because Bicicletas Ositto was a gift from Pablo), but he did quite a few donations to colombian teams riding the Tour. Initially, personal donations, but later on using the Group Inverca as a facade (Inverca was related to other sports, like football, when they controlled the team Independiente Santa Fe).

When Bernal was the director of Coldeportes (the principal guvernment sports office), he sent a letter to Pablo Escobar, asking him to join the Corporación Tour de Francia, and that would confirm the financial aid Escobar did to cycling in Colombia.

That being said, I don't think the financial aid from Escobar to cycling did indeed vastly improved the colombian level. First of all, because most of this money was stolen by the sports manager in the government offices (a lot of them were later killed by the same drug cartels), but also because if it was true that cyclists had access to huge ammounts of money by then, it wouldn't make sense not to start using Ferrari's kind of programs at the beginning of the 90's.
where are your sources that pablo escobar donated to the big colombian teams in europe? and what amounts of money where they because as far as I know he never did, he may have done to colombian cycling federation but that was a total mess up until 2 years ago
 
Jun 16, 2009
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The Hitch said:
I have no idea why but while Ryos blind cheerleading on the pro section (picking Duarte or Serpa or Soler for every race etc) has antagonised other the other Dutchies, there seems to be something about your cyclists that inspires such support from them.
Its probably because Colombians tend to race a bit more like we want the Euro pros to race - suicidal attacks on every bend on every climb etc. Nobody leaves anything in the tank, they just try to win every race they enter. Whatever the reasons for their physical performances, their attitudes are what makes them popular. (well thats what I think anyway)
 
Aug 6, 2009
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Ryo Hazuki said:
wow, have any evidence of this or did you suck it out of your thumb?
What evidence would you need, oh snippy, sarcastic one?

Feel free to send me a pm and I'll sort you out. Purchase the plane ticket to Colombia and I'll have people meet you there so you can take part in the race and get a feel for what really goes on.

My guess is, since you probably don't have the resources you won't take me up on this offer, which is the only one I can make to ease your doubts.

There is nothing like seeing things for oneself. Would that be enough "proof" for you?
 
Feb 24, 2011
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Pablo Escobar said it himself in an interview with Carla Toscano, there is also a book, Los jinetes de la cocaína, there is the letter sent by Julio Nieto Bernal himself to Pablo Escobar (it was in the news, but I can't find it online and honestly, I can't be bothered to look for stuff if you keep being stubborn yourself), there is the fact that quite a few cycling managers and cyclists were killed by drug cartels in the 80's and there is the report in Cycling Inquisition quoted by spalco earlier.

Nevertheless, as I stated in my previous post, I don't think it was enough money to build a super team or something similar. Even the best colombian teams had limited budgets, not barely enough to even equip themselves with the best bikes. It was mostly bonus prizes, like money that Escobar gave to other public figures like footballers and bullfighters.
 
Feb 24, 2011
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The Hitch said:
I have no idea why but while Ryos blind cheerleading on the pro section (picking Duarte or Serpa or Soler for every race etc) has antagonised other the other Dutchies, there seems to be something about your cyclists that inspires such support from them.
It is because they are awesome. :)
 
Jun 16, 2009
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Ryo Hazuki said:
where are your sources that pablo escobar donated to the big colombian teams in europe? and what amounts of money where they because as far as I know he never did, he may have done to colombian cycling federation but that was a total mess up until 2 years ago
Its pretty hillarious that you want to go head to head with people who have presented such detailed information on a topic when all you have to come back with is that you personally haven't seen anything written on it.

Here is a truly excellent article, written by a Colombian cyclist - in particular please note the picture roughly 25% of the way down, of a cyclist with "Pablo Escobar Renovacion Liberal" written on his shorts...

Cycling inquisition: Pablo escobar, guerillas, and my Dream Bike
 
Ildabaoth said:
but he did quite a few donations to colombian teams riding the Tour. Initially, personal donations, but later on using the Group Inverca as a facade (Inverca was related to other sports, like football, when they controlled the team Independiente Santa Fe).
Pablo Escobar & Independiente Santa Fe????? I beg your pardon???? If you claim to be Colombian-regardless which region are you originally from--You better know that all the Capital city Football teams were ruled by the Gacha, Carranza & Lozano crew-in constant war with the Escabar family-so that little fact tells me your knowledge is as complex as copy/paste

Martin318is said:
Its pretty hillarious that you want to go head to head with people who have presented such detailed information on a topic when all you have to come back with is that you personally haven't seen anything written on it.

Here is a truly excellent article, written by a Colombian cyclist - in particular please note the picture roughly 25% of the way down, of a cyclist with "Pablo Escobar Renovacion Liberal" written on his shorts...

Cycling inquisition: Pablo escobar, guerillas, and my Dream Bike
Ildabaoth said:
(it was in the news, but I can't find it online and honestly, I can't be bothered to look for stuff if you keep being stubborn yourself), there is the fact that quite a few cycling managers and cyclists were killed by drug cartels in the 80's and there is the report in Cycling Inquisition quoted by spalco earlier.

Cycling managers & Cyclists themselves "massacred" by the mafia..........

You know- there is a famous saying in my country: GOSSIPING KILLS MORE PEOPLE THAN DECEASES...

wow- I mean- If you folks take for truth a blog that barely focuses on cycling rather than the author's fascination for the Colombian mafia-in which are gigantic mistakes none the less-I'd say that's a truly revelation of what is going on nowadays with journalism & the people out there just swallowing everything without even questioning or doing some deeper investigation.....

now- I'd be glad to go as deep as possible with this none sense IF THE THREAD WAS CALLED "PABLO ESCOBAR & HIS INVESTMENTS IN SPORTS" but since the thread has a different topic to address to, I just cannot keep the contribution to it-I find it even repulsive that a mod/admin here finds amusing to bring this person to discussion-knowing all the harm he caused not only in my country, but around the world with all the drug trafficking & killings because of the very drugs that might as well have ended up in the hands of a love one... perhaps your own families
 
Feb 24, 2011
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hfer07 said:
...
You know- there is a famous saying in my country: GOSSIPING KILLS MORE PEOPLE THAN DECEASES...
There is a famous saying in my country: writing in all caps and like if your question mark key is damaged doesn't make you any cooler. ;)

Anyways, point taken, the Grupo Inverca wasn't Escobar's, but Gacha's. That would mean colombian cycling was somewhat sponsored not by only one drug lord, but two. Happy now? ;)

Please enlighten us about the invitation to Escobar to be a member of the Corporación Tour de Francia. Or about the interview Escobar himself gave to Carla Toscano, saying he donated money for colombian riders to go to the Tour de France. Or tell us about the assassination of Alfonso Flórez (former cyclist) or Murillo (former cycling team owner) by the cartel de Medellín.

It is easy to dismiss other opinions by treating them as gossip. So go ahead and tell us another explanation why Escobar said that he donated money, and why there are even pictures of cyclists showing his name in their shorts.

If you are colombian -regardless of the region you are originally from-, you better know that drug cartels were in everything in the 80's. Escobar himself was a Congressman! And if even so you believe drug money would stay away from the most important sport in Colombia of that decade, well, I guess I shouldn't talk to you about Santa.
 
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