^^Yeah, it's a shame, really. See my post above about opportunities, and I think Escarabejo is correct that this is probably coming from "coaches" and "advisers" who have a financial interest in seeing their riders make the big time. The fact that they get caught in testing means that someone isn't supervising them correctly, or at all.
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First, EF Education First, derived from Slipstream is My local connection to PRO racing with roots in Boulder, Colorado. Follow them. However, I'm noticing Sergio Higuita recently moved up from racing for Colombian Pro Continental squad Manna Postbox which was just announced to:
According to UCI anti-doping regulation 7.12.1, Manzana Postobon will now be suspended for a period of between 15 and 45 days, which will be decided by the UCI Disciplinary Commission, due to the team registering a second AAF within a 12-month period.
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/manzana-postobon-team-to-be-suspended-after-second-adverse-analytical-finding/
I belive Higuita is a clean. Cleaner. Clean as Vaughters aspired to be...
Let's hope Higuita grows to be a long standing great racer.
According to UCI anti-doping regulation 7.12.1, Manzana Postobon will now be suspended for a period of between 15 and 45 days, which will be decided by the UCI Disciplinary Commission, due to the team registering a second AAF within a 12-month period.
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/manzana-postobon-team-to-be-suspended-after-second-adverse-analytical-finding/
I belive Higuita is a clean. Cleaner. Clean as Vaughters aspired to be...
Let's hope Higuita grows to be a long standing great racer.
Re:
This is like saying "everybody is doing it, why only us?" which seems about right.
Alexandre B. said:
:lol:
This is like saying "everybody is doing it, why only us?" which seems about right.
Sad but lure of contract in World Tour was probably hard to resist especially after the success of Quintana, Uranluckyboy said:
Let's make this clear: Latin America is full of doping.. Funvic from Brazil, Najar and Dani in Argentina, Those guys from Chile, Mr 63 and his cohort in Venezuela, The Rojas brothers et al, from Costa Rica... What makes you think Colombia was an oasis in that "desert"?
The local scene is dark as you can imagine, but Manzana was always concerned about that. They built their own testing program while being amateur or CT, they gained enmity among the local peloton, certain journos and even the Federation (like when they took the Colombian representation in Tour de l'Avenir, or the sponsorship "Colombia es Pasión" from them).
Their flagship has been clean cycling, and I find illogical at this point that doping became a team policy. Instead, it's my belief that it was an individual thing: Training partners, bad advising from those around the riders. Look, it's not even the same drug.
And, the lost face to fight their own battle, so it's understandable that they fold
The local scene is dark as you can imagine, but Manzana was always concerned about that. They built their own testing program while being amateur or CT, they gained enmity among the local peloton, certain journos and even the Federation (like when they took the Colombian representation in Tour de l'Avenir, or the sponsorship "Colombia es Pasión" from them).
Their flagship has been clean cycling, and I find illogical at this point that doping became a team policy. Instead, it's my belief that it was an individual thing: Training partners, bad advising from those around the riders. Look, it's not even the same drug.
And, the lost face to fight their own battle, so it's understandable that they fold
https://www.eltiempo.com/deportes/ciclismo/jarlinson-pantano-no-peleara-con-uci-por-dopaje-y-se-retiro-del-ciclismo-373980
Pantano retired. Meanwhile he is still talking of a "false positive" and that he did nothing wrong and knows no explanation for this. Also no word on the possible opening of the B sample. That would actually be intersting to see in my opinion. Looks like he just does not want to admit it in my opinion. I mean Cardoso also couldn't afford the legal way, but at least he wanted the B sample and the results were different.
Pantano retired. Meanwhile he is still talking of a "false positive" and that he did nothing wrong and knows no explanation for this. Also no word on the possible opening of the B sample. That would actually be intersting to see in my opinion. Looks like he just does not want to admit it in my opinion. I mean Cardoso also couldn't afford the legal way, but at least he wanted the B sample and the results were different.
Manzana-Postobon suspended for 45 days!
Yes... the team that has already closed down has been suspended…
Yes... the team that has already closed down has been suspended…
That's right Pantano. Don't waste your money in a pointless defense. You'll need it in the future.
Re:
That's the reason why Postobon was penalized. Because doping was an individual thing. They obviously made mistakes. Had they been assisted by better experts this would not have happened unfortunately.slosada said:
Do we have clinic threads for Ineos, Wiggins, Froome and Thomas, but not for the latest champ, Colombian Bernal?
It seems cyclingnews do consider Colombians to be clean (either that or some of the most rabid posters have an agenda against a certain country
)
It seems cyclingnews do consider Colombians to be clean (either that or some of the most rabid posters have an agenda against a certain country
)
Re:
Maybe no-one is arguing that Egan is clean..?
Fergoose said:Do we have clinic threads for Ineos, Wiggins, Froome and Thomas, but not for the latest champ, Colombian Bernal?
It seems cyclingnews do consider Colombians to be clean (either that or some of the most rabid posters have an agenda against a certain country
Maybe no-one is arguing that Egan is clean..?
We all know he is doping but it's not as in your face as it was with Wiggins or Froome and i have yet to see him go to great lengths claiming he is clean which usually annoys the *** out of me.
Re: Re:
Okay. I'll say I think Bernal is clean (and mean it). Now there is no excuse for double standards.
King Boonen said:Fergoose said:Do we have clinic threads for Ineos, Wiggins, Froome and Thomas, but not for the latest champ, Colombian Bernal?
It seems cyclingnews do consider Colombians to be clean (either that or some of the most rabid posters have an agenda against a certain country
Maybe no-one is arguing that Egan is clean..?
Okay. I'll say I think Bernal is clean (and mean it). Now there is no excuse for double standards.
Re:
At some point I'd love to understand what drives the sense of persecution by so many brits on this forum. Maybe just consider the differences in the relative performances of Froome and Wiggins, and their backgrounds in comparison to Bernal. Not going to rehash it all, but this is a young guy, who didn't win a stage, who didn't dominate, who did well in the terrain you'd expect him to, with nary an alien looking performance the entire time.
Is he clean? I'd be somewhat surprised if he were, but his performances and background, in STARK contrast to that of Froome and Wiggins, don't set off any major alarm bells.
You get that this is the difference, not some nationalistic conspiracy theory, right? That if anything, folks on this english-speaking board are more inclined to root for brits, right?
If you think there's a question, start a Bernal thread.
Fergoose said:Do we have clinic threads for Ineos, Wiggins, Froome and Thomas, but not for the latest champ, Colombian Bernal?
It seems cyclingnews do consider Colombians to be clean (either that or some of the most rabid posters have an agenda against a certain country
At some point I'd love to understand what drives the sense of persecution by so many brits on this forum. Maybe just consider the differences in the relative performances of Froome and Wiggins, and their backgrounds in comparison to Bernal. Not going to rehash it all, but this is a young guy, who didn't win a stage, who didn't dominate, who did well in the terrain you'd expect him to, with nary an alien looking performance the entire time.
Is he clean? I'd be somewhat surprised if he were, but his performances and background, in STARK contrast to that of Froome and Wiggins, don't set off any major alarm bells.
You get that this is the difference, not some nationalistic conspiracy theory, right? That if anything, folks on this english-speaking board are more inclined to root for brits, right?
If you think there's a question, start a Bernal thread.
Re: Re:
Olympic champion Wiggins getting escorted by super-domestiques up every climb was more 'dominant' than Bernal stomping up the shortened stage?
I dont feel persecuted, I dont support Ineos and you may note the author of the Froome clinic thread. So I'm not sure why you interpreted it as such (Pinot, Bardet, Nibali and Sastre are probably my fav riders this century, not a Brit among them). What drives my perspective is that there is a something deeply amusing about individuals who will jump up and down about Olympic champs like Wiggins and Thomas and conspiracy theories about Cookson then having nothing to say about Egan. The silence is deafening and to me the situation mirrors the roadside fans who boo Thomas because he is a 'cheat' on terrible Sky but cheer Bernal who is on the same team and performing better than doping Thomas. It's a position I find worthy of comment.
As I say, I have no concerns about Bernal but if you think he is doping then fair enough.
- Olympic champion Thomas apparently merits 85 dedicated pages
- Olympic champion Wiggins apparently merits 92 dedicated pages
- Sky/Ineos apparently merits 1997 dedicated pages
- Bernal, the youngest TdF champ in a century on the same team - not even a thread
I think it is reasonable for me to suggest a Colombian is getting a comparatively easy ride and I look forward to the mental gymnastics that will take place in some quarters to reconcile the above inconsistency. Maybe Botero would have got no comment if he was working for Brailsford too.
red_flanders said:Fergoose said:Do we have clinic threads for Ineos, Wiggins, Froome and Thomas, but not for the latest champ, Colombian Bernal?
It seems cyclingnews do consider Colombians to be clean (either that or some of the most rabid posters have an agenda against a certain country
At some point I'd love to understand what drives the sense of persecution by so many brits on this forum. Maybe just consider the differences in the relative performances of Froome and Wiggins, and their backgrounds in comparison to Bernal. Not going to rehash it all, but this is a young guy, who didn't win a stage, who didn't dominate, who did well in the terrain you'd expect him to, with nary an alien looking performance the entire time.
Is he clean? I'd be somewhat surprised if he were, but his performances and background, in STARK contrast to that of Froome and Wiggins, don't set off any major alarm bells.
You get that this is the difference, not some nationalistic conspiracy theory, right? That if anything, folks on this english-speaking board are more inclined to root for brits, right?
If you think there's a question, start a Bernal thread.
Olympic champion Wiggins getting escorted by super-domestiques up every climb was more 'dominant' than Bernal stomping up the shortened stage?
I dont feel persecuted, I dont support Ineos and you may note the author of the Froome clinic thread. So I'm not sure why you interpreted it as such (Pinot, Bardet, Nibali and Sastre are probably my fav riders this century, not a Brit among them). What drives my perspective is that there is a something deeply amusing about individuals who will jump up and down about Olympic champs like Wiggins and Thomas and conspiracy theories about Cookson then having nothing to say about Egan. The silence is deafening and to me the situation mirrors the roadside fans who boo Thomas because he is a 'cheat' on terrible Sky but cheer Bernal who is on the same team and performing better than doping Thomas. It's a position I find worthy of comment.
As I say, I have no concerns about Bernal but if you think he is doping then fair enough.
- Olympic champion Thomas apparently merits 85 dedicated pages
- Olympic champion Wiggins apparently merits 92 dedicated pages
- Sky/Ineos apparently merits 1997 dedicated pages
- Bernal, the youngest TdF champ in a century on the same team - not even a thread
I think it is reasonable for me to suggest a Colombian is getting a comparatively easy ride and I look forward to the mental gymnastics that will take place in some quarters to reconcile the above inconsistency. Maybe Botero would have got no comment if he was working for Brailsford too.
So in short, you have no issue with Bernal, but you question why there isn't a Bernal thread. The only inconsistency I see is in your position.
Re:
Look again. You know, the kind of guy that'd go out of their way to take a pop at Thomas but stay silent on Bernal despite saying he is also probably a doping.
viewtopic.php?f=20&t=17756&p=2213539&hilit=Geraint#p2213539
That sort of inconsistency, that some might call "absurd".
And I actually credit you because you have at least aired an opinion on Bernal (even if I dont agree with it). I wonder how many Colombian Tour victories it will take for the Thomas haters to turn their loathing towards Egan.
red_flanders said:
Look again. You know, the kind of guy that'd go out of their way to take a pop at Thomas but stay silent on Bernal despite saying he is also probably a doping.
viewtopic.php?f=20&t=17756&p=2213539&hilit=Geraint#p2213539
That sort of inconsistency, that some might call "absurd".
And I actually credit you because you have at least aired an opinion on Bernal (even if I dont agree with it). I wonder how many Colombian Tour victories it will take for the Thomas haters to turn their loathing towards Egan.
Re: Re:
My point here is that I'd like to see people stop taking negative opinions about individuals and extrapolating them into some kind of vendetta against the British. You could certainly say some have a problem with Sky, but that has everything to do with how Sky have behaved, and nothing to do with where they're from. Basically you're accusing other posters of nationalism or bigotry without a shred of evidence for it.
I don't believe the transformation of Geraint Thomas from track rider to mountain climber is credible in any way. I find it ridiculous. Bernal on the other hand has the physique and background of a climber, which makes him if not believable, acceptable. You can argue with my subjective reasoning all you want, but grant that it's based on the individuals and not their nationality. If anything, I'm predisposed to favoring english-speaking riders.
I quite like Thomas' personality, and he doesn't grate on my like Froome or Wiggins did, but his performances are almost as absurd. Bernal I don't care much about one way or another, but I find his performances at least approaching credibility.
Looking at one rider's background and performances and making a judgement about them, and then doing the same with another rider and coming to another conclusion isn't "inconsistent". It's basic logic and offering evaluation of individuals. Cherry-picking one comment about one rider from someone's posting history and ignoring the thousands of posts offering opinions on other riders is a pretty silly way to make a case. I'd like to see people assume good faith arguments from their fellow members, and ignore people when you're convinced that's not their goal. If you think I'm not discussing these topics in good faith, or that I haven't thought about these people as individuals, you've made a mistake.
Bottom line, Sky and certain riders have given the public a thousand reasons not to like them. Being British, or semi-British isn't one of them.
Fergoose said:red_flanders said:
Look again. You know, the kind of guy that'd go out of their way to take a pop at Thomas but stay silent on Bernal despite saying he is also probably a doping.
viewtopic.php?f=20&t=17756&p=2213539&hilit=Geraint#p2213539
That sort of inconsistency, that some might call "absurd".
And I actually credit you because you have at least aired an opinion on Bernal (even if I dont agree with it). I wonder how many Colombian Tour victories it will take for the Thomas haters to turn their loathing towards Egan.
My point here is that I'd like to see people stop taking negative opinions about individuals and extrapolating them into some kind of vendetta against the British. You could certainly say some have a problem with Sky, but that has everything to do with how Sky have behaved, and nothing to do with where they're from. Basically you're accusing other posters of nationalism or bigotry without a shred of evidence for it.
I don't believe the transformation of Geraint Thomas from track rider to mountain climber is credible in any way. I find it ridiculous. Bernal on the other hand has the physique and background of a climber, which makes him if not believable, acceptable. You can argue with my subjective reasoning all you want, but grant that it's based on the individuals and not their nationality. If anything, I'm predisposed to favoring english-speaking riders.
I quite like Thomas' personality, and he doesn't grate on my like Froome or Wiggins did, but his performances are almost as absurd. Bernal I don't care much about one way or another, but I find his performances at least approaching credibility.
Looking at one rider's background and performances and making a judgement about them, and then doing the same with another rider and coming to another conclusion isn't "inconsistent". It's basic logic and offering evaluation of individuals. Cherry-picking one comment about one rider from someone's posting history and ignoring the thousands of posts offering opinions on other riders is a pretty silly way to make a case. I'd like to see people assume good faith arguments from their fellow members, and ignore people when you're convinced that's not their goal. If you think I'm not discussing these topics in good faith, or that I haven't thought about these people as individuals, you've made a mistake.
Bottom line, Sky and certain riders have given the public a thousand reasons not to like them. Being British, or semi-British isn't one of them.
people forget about how suspicious Thomas was already as a classics rider before his amazing climbing transformation in 2015. a lot of people accuse van Aert and Van Der Poel of doping already, now imagine next year they can suddenly climb well enough to win the Tour de France. it has nothing to do with what country Thomas represents.
Bernal, on the other hand, might be the most plausibly clean winner of a Tour de France since Greg LeMond.
Bernal, on the other hand, might be the most plausibly clean winner of a Tour de France since Greg LeMond.
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