Comprehensive Climbers Ranking

[Red Rick]

What could be the reason that Piancavallo has such high numbers? Is it associated with some local wind conditions (not discounted in formulas)? Or is the asphalt quality (underrated aspect IMO) absolutely top notch?

- Altitude basically the lowest you can get on a climb that long
- Steep at the beginning, often leading to a very aggressive climb from the base
- Usually no big climbs before
- Usually the kilometers before the climb are a false flat downhill
- Slight tailwind appears to be common.

I don't know about the asphalt quality.

But for me the main reason is the low altitude, which I think gets often undersold as a factor when climbs go super fast. Check the Giro last year, you have Santa Barbara where it's pretty much the pre finale and the full peloton paced by domestiques does like 6.1 for 36 minutes and it's absolutely no big deal. Or Evenepoel doing 6.6 for 30 minutes in Norway in 2022.

It's why you get Lo Port in Catalunya having Roglic/Evenepoel do a bigger performance than Pogacar the entire year. It's why the top W2W index for 2014 is the seemingly completely random Lanciano in Tirreno. It's also why Lagos de Covadonga has fast climbing times on the steep section even when the action looks like ***

 

[Peyresourde]

- Altitude basically the lowest you can get on a climb that long
- Steep at the beginning, often leading to a very aggressive climb from the base
- Usually no big climbs before
- Usually the kilometers before the climb are a false flat downhill
- Slight tailwind appears to be common.

I don't know about the asphalt quality.

But for me the main reason is the low altitude, which I think gets often undersold as a factor when climbs go super fast. Check the Giro last year, you have Santa Barbara where it's pretty much the pre finale and the full peloton paced by domestiques does like 6.1 for 36 minutes and it's absolutely no big deal. Or Evenepoel doing 6.6 for 30 minutes in Norway in 2022.

It's why you get Lo Port in Catalunya having Roglic/Evenepoel do a bigger performance than Pogacar the entire year. It's why the top W2W index for 2014 is the seemingly completely random Lanciano in Tirreno. It's also why Lagos de Covadonga has fast climbing times on the steep section even when the action looks like ***

Full agreement. The altitude and the easy approach are the main factor. My adjustments are very negative for this climb, e.g. -6/-7 in 1998. The asphalt does not seem to be anything special.

It has also only been used 3 times, and the watts were also not always that much off the charts.


1998: Unipuerto. Insane pace from the bottom. Pantani in terms of watts on same level as Alpe d'Huez. Tonkov and Zülle with PBs in w/kg. In 1998 the bike weights are also a bit uncertain. I know Pantani was on a 6.9 kg bike, but the others could have been quite a bit heavier or lighter (no weight limit yet).

2017: The Giro contenders had a decent level, Piancavallo was in line with other climbs that race. I think Landa and Pinot did a PB there, but not by much and both improved it later.

2020: Big PBs for Hindely, Kelderman, Hart and Almeida (86, 82, 82, 82). The pacing was absolutely perfect by the Sunweb train comparable to PdB (of course on a lower level).

Hindley reached the same level again for the first time on Angliru last year.
Almeida later improved compared to this performance.
Kelderman never did anything close to this again/before.
Geoghegan Hart might have actually been quite talented and was simply never able to quite put it together again but still had some decent w/kg perfomances over the years (Stelvio, Penas Blancas 2022, Cappuccini 2023).

 

[Krzysztof_O]

@Red Rick @Peyresourde

I totally failed to notice that Piancavallo's base is at 161 m! (almost sea level start). This is one of the lowest big climbs (1 km+ of elevation gain) in pro cycling. Easy approach also makes cyclists relatively fresh at the bottom.

BTW it's very interesting how much cyclists gain at low elevation (even though they prepare a lot on altitude). I think they gain relatively more at low elevation than your average Joe (due to their muscles being optimized for oxygen utilization while average Joe returns a lot of oxygen back).

 

[Red Rick]

@Red Rick @Peyresourde

I totally failed to notice that Piancavallo's base is at 161 m! (almost sea level start). This is one of the lowest big climbs (1 km+ of elevation gain) in pro cycling. Easy approach also makes cyclists relatively fresh at the bottom.

BTW it's very interesting how much cyclists gain at low elevation (even though they prepare a lot on altitude). I think they gain relatively more at low elevation than your average Joe (due to their muscles being optimized for oxygen utilization while average Joe returns a lot of oxygen back).

Oxygen transfer is all gradient based, I dont see why normies would benefit less from low altitude.

Pretty sure pros are generally much more adapted to even middling altitude than normies

 

[Krzysztof_O]

Oxygen transfer is all gradient based, I dont see why normies would benefit less from low altitude.

Pretty sure pros are generally much more adapted to even middling altitude than normies

So what's the reason of relatively quick initial progress of untrained individuals? (assuming they are not overweight).
I don't think it's such a quick development of cardiovascular system but it's oxygen consumption increase in muscles.
Even I feel considerably better after 2-3 days of mountain trekking (up to 10% of VAM increase at comfortable level) and I'm quite lean.

EDIT: it's probably initial adaptation to altitude in my case (which would confirm your point) but in general I still stick to oxygen utilization increase in muscles (together with mass loss) as the first step of form increase in case of untrained amateurs with cardiovascular system development taking more training time.

 

[yaco]

Have you ever checked KOMs on big climbs that have been raced by a big race? How many KOMs are by random guys doing a training ride?

This is a 50+ minute climb, not a 1 minute subsection of La Redoute

We were discussing the Angliru stage at the Vuelta femmes.

 

[Peyresourde]

Have you ever checked KOMs on big climbs that have been raced by a big race? How many KOMs are by random guys doing a training ride?

This is a 50+ minute climb, not a 1 minute subsection of La Redoute

For the men all the KOMs are from races, but Gardner is a really good climber. Her KOM on Alpe d'Huez is also much faster than Vollering from the Tour 2024.

 

[Samu Cuenca]

We were discussing the Angliru stage at the Vuelta femmes.

Illi Gardner's time was the only available reference point since it hadn't been climbed in a women's race before. But of course you're right that context as well as weather conditions matter a lot. Gardner's ride on Alpe d'Huez in 2024 was also over 3 minutes faster than what Vollering managed in the Tour 1.5 month later, but then she wasn't a part of a tactical battle against Rooijakkers or had crashed a few days before either. Pieterse and Claes also had faster recon rides on AdH than what they managed during the race, so it's obviously clear fatigue plays a part.

Gardner is a pretty good climber though. Depending on where you put the start and finish of the climb, she also beat Vollering's time on Lagos de Covadonga during her Asturian trip last year, but not by a lot, although it's also a shorter effort than Angliru and AdH.

 

[Brullnux]

Have you ever checked KOMs on big climbs that have been raced by a big race? How many KOMs are by random guys doing a training ride?

This is a 50+ minute climb, not a 1 minute subsection of La Redoute

Gardner is more than a random guy, she's absurd on these types of climbing efforts. It's more like an elite hill climber having the KOM on the types of climbs that hill climbing compeititons are on. Gardner has that but on big passes and climbs.

If cycling were more just mountaineering or like trail running then Gardner would probably be up there with the very best.

Edit: to add this, I remember reading that her FTP and 5 minute w/kg are genuinely elite but then her 1 minute and below efforts are like Cat 1 level.

 

[Red Rick]

So what's the reason of relatively quick initial progress of untrained individuals? (assuming they are not overweight).
I don't think it's such a quick development of cardiovascular system but it's oxygen consumption increase in muscles.
Even I feel considerably better after 2-3 days of mountain trekking (up to 10% of VAM increase at comfortable level) and I'm quite lean.

EDIT: it's probably initial adaptation to altitude in my case (which would confirm your point) but in general I still stick to oxygen utilization increase in muscles (together with mass loss) as the first step of form increase in case of untrained amateurs with cardiovascular system development taking more training time.

Sounds more like a priming response, it's way too short to have oxygen vector effects.

 

[Pozzovivo]

Everyone went very fast today despite a strong headwind in some sections. Crazy to see how close Gall came - Vingegaard definitely went deep. Honorable ride by Pellizzari!

Hope this ride indexes well @Peyresourde! Big gaps between several groups.

 

[Peyresourde]

Final analysis for today, the strong wind makes uncertainties a bit higher (I assumed a very slight tailwind) . Finally we have a high overall climbing level this year:

Jonas Vingegaard | 90 (+1): 6.41 W/kg for 39:04 on Blockhaus (Giro 2026)
Felix Gall | 88 (+1): 6.36 W/kg for 39:17 on Blockhaus (Giro 2026)
Jai Hindley | 82 (+1): 6.19 W/kg for 40:06 on Blockhaus (Giro 2026)
Gulio Pellizzari | 82 (+1): 6.18 W/kg for 40:09 on Blockhaus (Giro 2026)
Ben O'Connor | 82 (+1): 6.18 W/kg for 40:09 on Blockhaus (Giro 2026)


- Vingegaard won as expected with a strong performance for the first week and clearly better than in Catalunya
- Gall with a career performance (together with Superbagneres last year). Decathlon is also the only non-favorite team that knows how to use their domestiques on climbs (Mühlberger did a great job giving extra shelter)

- Red Bull messed up like they normally do. They paced for no reason and then Pellizzari was not on the wheel of Vingegaard. But both Hindley and Pellizzari are in great shape.
- Most surprising for me was O'Connor also equaling his career best. He seems to be the type of rider that pushes more watts after long stages. Maybe he should do a hard warm-up for shorter stages in the future.


Edit: After looking through some powerfiles, I changed the wind slightly and reduced the draft bonus due to the crosswind. The w/kg thus increased by 0.02-0.03.

 

[canina82]

Preliminary analysis for today, the strong wind makes uncertainties a bit higher (I assumed a slight tailwind) . Finally we have a high overall climbing level this year:

Jonas Vingegaard | 90 (+2): 6.38 W/kg for 39:04 on Blockhaus (Giro 2026)
Felix Gall | 88 (+2): 6.33 W/kg for 39:17 on Blockhaus (Giro 2026)
Jai Hindley | 82 (+2): 6.16 W/kg for 40:06 on Blockhaus (Giro 2026)
Gulio Pellizzari | 81 (+2): 6.15 W/kg for 40:09 on Blockhaus (Giro 2026)
Ben O'Connor | 82 (+2): 6.16 W/kg for 40:09 on Blockhaus (Giro 2026)


- Vingegaard won as expected with a strong performance for the first week and clearly better than in Catalunya
- Gall with a career performance (together with Superbagneres last year). Decathlon is also the only non-favorite team that knows how to use their domestiques on climbs (Mühlberger did a great job giving extra shelter)

- Red Bull messed up like they normally do. They paced for no reason and then Pellizzari was not on the wheel of Vingegaard. But both Hindley and Pellizzari are in great shape.
- Most surprising for me was O'Connor also equaling his career best. He seems to be the type of rider that pushes more watts after long stages. Maybe he should do a hard warm-up for shorter stages in the future.

38'26" Vingegaard

I handtimed and it's equal to the Giro's time (they were sharing on the screen the climbing time).

 

[Netserk]

I handtimed and it's equal to the Giro's time (they were sharing on the screen the climbing time).

different segments

 

[Peyresourde]

I handtimed and it's equal to the Giro's time (they were sharing on the screen the climbing time).

I mentioned it in the climbing time thread. The Giro's timing started from the village, but the full climb starts almost 40 seconds earlier after the bridge.

 

[Tim Cahill]

It feels similar level to Pogacar's 2024 Giro?

I'm sceptical about their claim that he is better in his 2nd GT and Gall being better than Dani Martinez might push him further than he wants to go, but if he is serious about the Tour then I feel he should not be quite at his best here.

 

[Brullnux]

It feels similar level to Pogacar's 2024 Giro?

I'm sceptical about their claim that he is better in his 2nd GT and Gall being better than Dani Martinez might push him further than he wants to go, but if he is serious about the Tour then I feel he should not be quite at his best here.

I think it's a better climbing performance than anything Pogacar did before Livigno/Monte Grappa, but Pogacar did a very good TT which might be similar to this. So yeah, roughly comparable

 

[Peyresourde]

It feels similar level to Pogacar's 2024 Giro?

I'm sceptical about their claim that he is better in his 2nd GT and Gall being better than Dani Martinez might push him further than he wants to go, but if he is serious about the Tour then I feel he should not be quite at his best here.

Vingegaard was very good today, I expect a great level from him in the Tour provided everything goes smoothly until then.

The claim about being better in the second GT is of course bs. They only justify this by looking at 2 climbs (Bejes 2023 with literally perfect conditions and Valdezcaray 2025). On all other climbs he was worse than his respective Tours.

Though I do think it is easier to be better at the Tour after the Giro (compared to Vuelta after Tour), with the first race overall being less stressful and there being a week longer between races. The motivation is also easier to bring for the Tour than the Vuelta.

 

[Berniece]

- Red Bull messed up like they normally do. They paced for no reason and then Pellizzari was not on the wheel of Vingegaard. But both Hindley and Pellizzari are in great shape.

Pacing for no reason? :s

 

[Mayomaniac]

Oxygen transfer is all gradient based, I dont see why normies would benefit less from low altitude.

Pretty sure pros are generally much more adapted to even middling altitude than normies

Maybe among flatlanders...

 

[Mayomaniac]

Regarding Piancavallo, it is the first mountain or even just proper hill if you take the direct way coming from the adriatic sea, so there could be a tailwind coming from the coastal line all the way inwards.

 

[Pozzovivo]

We need you to weigh in on Bernal's claim that yesterday was his best 40 min watts value, @Peyresourde.

I strongly doubt Bernal's claim unless he's considerably heavier than years past.

 

[Red Rick]

We need you to weigh in on Bernal's claim that yesterday was his best 40 min watts value, @Peyresourde.

I strongly doubt Bernal's claim unless he's considerably heavier than years past.

Fresh, well paced 40 min climbs are actually pretty rare, and Bernal has spent much more time in the hospital than competitive in GC in the last few years. He has no outliers from before his first major injury, and only Zoncolan 2021 lines up somewhat, and he might be discounting that because it wasn't 40 minutes.

 

[Peyresourde]

We need you to weigh in on Bernal's claim that yesterday was his best 40 min watts value, @Peyresourde.

I strongly doubt Bernal's claim unless he's considerably heavier than years past.

Copy from my post in another thread about Bernal:

'His power meter probably read slightly high, but it is not impossible (especially if he weighs below 60kg). I have him at 5.88 w/kg and Vingegaard at 6.38 w/kg, so a 0.5 w/kg difference.

I think he also mentioned that it was his best 40 minute power, which is hard to believe. His record (in race) should probably be from Zoncolan 2021 (6.14 w/kg for 40 minutes).'


Up to 6 w/kg yesterday is possible for Bernal, especially as he was dropped early and was apparently alone for a lot of the climb. Maybe the effects of the crosswind were also a bit worse than I considered. (Then my calc would be bit low for everyone)

The first and easiest explanation is always the powermeter in these cases. And as Red Rick says, he also does not have many good 40 minute efforts besides Zoncolan in his career. Maybe Gamoniteiru from 2021, but that was a 50 minute effort.

 

[Pozzovivo]

A lot of criticism of RB Bora for pacing the first part. Was it a fake pace or was the climb paced hard from the bottom (seems likely given the fast ascent)?