here is a BigBoat post as Realgains
Test and steroids for endurance athletes
OK here it goes...I will probably draw a few flames but I can't stand it any longer. I have a **** LOAD of steroid experience and I can no longer sit back...I want the best for you guys. Sounds corny but it's true.
I have a lot of experience using testosterone and steroids in bodybuilding and road cycling. I am a trainer and a coach.
Before I got seriously into bodybuilding I was a Cat 1 roadie.
I have been reading a lot of the threads on the forum and I am quite shocked at what doses of gear some of the endurance athletes on this forum are doing!
Did you know that 100mg of IM test per week will put most men into the upper quartile of the normal range and in fact it will put not a few above normal.
100mg of cyp will give you about 70mg of pure test(minus ester weight). The average man puts out 4-7 mg of test per day....and 10 per day IF YOU ARE YOUNG AND LUCKY.
A test dose for endurance athletes should not be very high at all. 100- to 150mg per week MAX. 150 will put most mens' serum T at TWICE the highest reaches of normal.....that's 2000ng/dl! At that level your lipid profile will go to **** bro's...your HDL will drop a lot. Take more than 200 per week and it will dive to rock bottom in most men. This is not a good thing since arterial plaque build up is cumulative over years. Why add plaque to your arterial walls when you don't need to. *** This is BY FAR the worst side effect of steroid use.
Also, if you take more than 150 per week your DHT(metabolite of testosterone) will go up and if you have the genetics for hair loss you WILL loose hair. It's dose dependent....400 of test will cause much more hair loss IF you have the genetics in your family for hair loss. Other androgens, like tren or even milder ones like EQ and primo can also cause hair loss.
Also, it may mess with your prostate with the higher DHT level but it usually takes more than 150 per week. My has been messed badly at 400 a week with a high PSA. However, even at 150 per week you may see and increase in PSA with no symptoms. We know that an elevated PSA isn't good even without symptoms.
Did you know that very few men have a naturally high T, even at 19 years of age...few have a T in the upper quartile or 750-1000ng/dl.
If you take larger doses of test, above 100- 150 per week max, you WILL hold significant water weight and it is not simply because T converts to estrogen. Water weight gain happens with androgens for "kidney" reasons. They alter the renin/angiotension system. So even if your gear does not aromatize to estrogen ie: tren, you will add some water weight.
NOTE: I learned this about non aromatizing roids from the late great Nandi. He provided me with the studies to back this up. Believe me there is nobody on the forums that knew more than him on steroids.
The higher doses of the aromatizing hormones like EQ, nandrolone(deca) and especially testosterone that I read on this forum will result in at least 5-7 or even 10 pound gain in water and that's a lot for an endurance man. My experience says that 150 of test and 300-400 of EQ will result in roughly a 7 pound water weight gain.
NOTE: Some non aromatizing roids like tren for example will make you look really "hard". You end up getting leaner and estrogen levels drop to rock bottom because you are not making any more testosterone and have NO estrogen from testosterone conversion. However, there still is some water retention from the tren itself. Normally it isn't very much and you can't really "see" the water gain but it is there to some degree and a the muscular level....you notice it in UNREAL pumps that can become crippling for the endurance man and especially on a run.
Tren is a VERY powerful "androgen" and it is mainly the extreme androgenicity that makes you look so hard on tren.
Larger doses also cause muscle mass weight increase and this is not what most road cyclists, nordic skiers or runners want.
This extra water weight is not a good thing for cyclists or runners....it has to do not only with hauling weight up hills but also about how the water negatively impacts your cardio vascular system. The extra water puts more stress on your heart and your VO2 max will GO DOWN FOR SURE if you hold a good deal of water.
It can and usually does also cause crippling pumps in your calves, anterior tibialis and especially your low back. These pumps will stop you cold bro's...trust me.
So even if you take an AI like arimidex to reduce estrogen conversion and reduce water weight gain you will not be covering all your bases if you take larger doses of test or steroids.
The idea behind using testosterone, and or steroids for pure endurance sports( not track sprinting or MMA fighting) is to help with recovery so you can train hard more frequently. With supplementation you can get your T into the upper reaches of normal or a little higher and stay there...it will not go down as it does with hard training! Sometimes you can get a small boost in RBC count and increase your crit but bigger changes usually takes bigger doses with most men and that means water retention and water weight gain.
Which hormone is best for recovery reasons...testosterone FOR SURE but roids help as well.
A good dose of Test for the cyclist....100-150 mg per week .
On the 150 it is wise to take 1/4 arimidex every other day to control estrogen and water weight gain.
Why only 100mg some of you will say.....because it will get most of you into the upper reaches of normal and you will not usually have any estrogen/water retention issues and you lipid profile will be normal and may even improve a bit. Also, you stay at the upper normal and do not drop in T as you always do with hard training.
EQ....often used by cyclists, and nordic skiiers.
EQ will convert to estrogen at about half the rate of testosterone.
Some think that this roid increases RBC count more than any other roid or testosterone.
There is no proof that EQ is better than Test by the way. It never did anything more than test in this regard for me.
Actually the best roid for increasing RBC count is anadrol but it is 17 alpha alkylated and as such it is liver toxic. I do not recommend any 17aa roid for bodybuilding or endurance training since you can get better results from non 17aa gear.
You will also hold a **** load of water on even 50mg a day as this roid is a progestin and significantly increases water retention. If anyone says NO then they have not used this roid!
Good EQ dose for PURE endurance athletes(not track sprinters or MMA fighters) would be 200mg/wk
! It is best to stack test with EQ to keep your sex drive really good and for optimal recovery reasons.
So 125mg of test per week and 200 of EQ is a BIG STACK for an endurance athlete. You should take 1/4 tab of arimidex every other day with this dose to control estrogen/water.
****NOTE stack 200 or more of EQ or deca or primo with your test and your lipid profile suffer with a drop in good cholesterol(hdl)...take even more and it will go to roack bottom!
400 of EQ is bodybuilders dose....don't do it in my opinion. You will gain too much water and maybe more than a couple pounds of muscle. Most endurance men, save for really skinny "climbers"have plenty of muscle mass.....it's not about muscle mass...it's about sustainable aerobic power.
TREN!...The most powerful androgen know to man, save for the non anabolic DHT. Bodybuilders dose is 50-75mg per day. Some do 75 every other day ...this is a very powerful roid guys!
If you want to try this roid then do very little ...like 25 mg a day max.
**** on 50mg a day I got REALLY strong and gained 15 pounds of pure muscle in 10 weeks on tren alone, and 100 of test for sex drive and test normalization, while lifting hard.
I would take 100 of test a week with this roid to save your sex drive.
Nandrolone(Deca) is a mildish steroid that does convert to estrogen but less than test. 200 a week is plenty. Take 100-125 of test per week with it to save your sex drive.
Anavar...don't use it...it's 17aa. Also, for some strange reason many endurance men have had bad experiences with this roid re: cramping and crippling pumps.
Primobolin....maybe, since it is mild and doesn't convert to estrogen. Maybe try 200-250 a week. Use some test with it per above.
Oh...you can get oral primo and it is not liver toxic as it is not 17aa coated....but you have to increase the dose to see the same affect as an IM.