Cycling, a deeply criminal business

Oct 16, 2010
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messycolin said:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2012/nov/05/david-millar-cycling

David millar giving a thoughtful and provocative interview in guardian newspaper.
what a load of crap.
again he's vouching for Wiggins and Sky.

"There's still a sad irony here. Sky won the Tour clean and they have become another flag-bearer for the future. But they're getting vilified because their zero-tolerance policy has been questioned. Yet they were still clean. They never doped. There's room for Sky's zero-tolerance aim but there should be flexibility. Teams like ours [Garmin-Sharp – which Millar leads alongside Jonathan Vaughters, his team manager and another former drug-using cyclist turned redoubtable anti-doping campaigner] work by including those of us who made past mistakes."
amazing really.
the last bit of credibility i was willing to give Millar vanishes with this interview.

"Doping is just a non-subject to the young guys," Millar says. "To them it's the dark ages of the sport. It's easy to forget that, when I turned pro, it was everywhere. That's what we mustn't forget. Jonathan and I have this sense of history but we want to change things in the future. We think it carries so much more weight and power to work with people who have learnt from the past and want to make a difference. But it's also easy for others to move away from the fact that we cleaned up the sport – from the ground. You can win the biggest races clean now and that's a seismic change.
"Tyler doesn't know what the sport is like today. He hasn't spent time with us and seen what we've done to clean up their mess. I think it's great what Tyler has done, with the book, and coming to terms with the past. But can we put it into context please? It's such a shame Sky and us are talking points because we're both clean teams and putting ourselves on a soap box in different ways. We both want to acknowledge the past by cleaning up the present and creating a better future for cycling."
:rolleyes:
 
Sniper is right though. I only skimmed over the interview and I was mildly happy that he was adoping a somewhat harsher stance on McQuaid (still too soft, IMO; but it's an improvement). But Millar simply can't vouch for Sky. On the one hand, we're told it's not talked about anymore, not even within the same team, but on the other we have to believe Millar, who isn't even a Sky rider, knows for sure they're clean. If the doping culture is receding (and I believe it was at least until 2011), then the doping that is still going on will be more secretive than ever, and Millar has simply no way to know what other teams are up to.

All this talk about it being in the past conveniently forgets the ongoing Padua investigation.
 
Jul 17, 2012
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hrotha said:
Sniper is right though. I only skimmed over the interview and I was mildly happy that he was adoping a somewhat harsher stance on McQuaid (still too soft, IMO; but it's an improvement). But Millar simply can't vouch for Sky. On the one hand, we're told it's not talked about anymore, not even within the same team, but on the other we have to believe Millar, who isn't even a Sky rider, knows for sure they're clean. If the doping culture is receding (and I believe it was at least until 2011), then the doping that is still going on will be more secretive than ever, and Millar has simply no way to know what other teams are up to.
He's in a far better position than anyone on this forum to comment on other teams, yet it doesn't stop anyone here, incuding you, saying who is dirty in the peloton
 
Aug 10, 2010
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hrotha said:
Sniper is right though. I only skimmed over the interview and I was mildly happy that he was adoping a somewhat harsher stance on McQuaid (still too soft, IMO; but it's an improvement). But Millar simply can't vouch for Sky. On the one hand, we're told it's not talked about anymore, not even within the same team, but on the other we have to believe Millar, who isn't even a Sky rider, knows for sure they're clean. If the doping culture is receding (and I believe it was at least until 2011), then the doping that is still going on will be more secretive than ever, and Millar has simply no way to know what other teams are up to.

All this talk about it being in the past conveniently forgets the ongoing Padua investigation.
Festina was the end of team-organized doping. USPS/Discovery/Astana was the end of team-organized doping. I'm sure Padua will be the end of team-organized doping, as well.
 

martinvickers

BANNED
Oct 15, 2012
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JimmyFingers said:
He's in a far better position than anyone on this forum to comment on other teams, yet it doesn't stop anyone here, incuding you, saying who is dirty in the peloton
Miller can clearly comment on Garmin. Whether you believe him or not is a personal issue, but you cannot argue he has no way of knowing.

He clearly doesn't have the 'inside' line on Sky, but by the same token he has long knowledge of both Wiggins, Brailsford and British Cycling. He's can't 'vouch' for them, but he probably knows some bits and bobs.

Can't for the life of me see how he'd know a damn thing about Berti.
 
Millar is always interesting, because he is knowledgeable, articulate and political.

You don't have to agree with him (though I do most of the time) but no one will give you a better litmus test of the way the wind is blowing (mixing metaphors!) than DM

Mr McQuaid, are you listening? " Pat needs to cut that cord and move forward. He needs to wake up to the fact that some revolutions become unstoppable."

Probably too late anyway.
 
hrotha said:
Sniper is right though. I only skimmed over the interview and I was mildly happy that he was adoping a somewhat harsher stance on McQuaid (still too soft, IMO; but it's an improvement). But Millar simply can't vouch for Sky. On the one hand, we're told it's not talked about anymore, not even within the same team, but on the other we have to believe Millar, who isn't even a Sky rider, knows for sure they're clean. If the doping culture is receding (and I believe it was at least until 2011), then the doping that is still going on will be more secretive than ever, and Millar has simply no way to know what other teams are up to.

All this talk about it being in the past conveniently forgets the ongoing Padua investigation.
Miller is compromised. He doesn't give any other team the same ringing endorsement of cleanness. He only gives the seal of clean approval to the team whereby his sister is head of PR. That is what's known as a "conflict of interest" and its the very thing he is accusing McQuaid/HVB/Armstrong of.... Miller also owns a financial stake in Garmin. Again its within his own personal interest to claim they are clean. It would be better coming from an independent source or at least someone who doesn't gain financially from saying they are clean.

David might want to let us know "why" he knows Sky are clean? Why would he have such information?
 
thehog said:
Miller is compromised. He doesn't give any other team the same ringing endorsement of cleanness. He only gives the seal of clean approval to the team whereby his sister is head of PR. That is what's known as a "conflict of interest" and its the very thing he is accusing McQuaid/HVB/Armstrong of.... Miller also owns a financial stake in Garmin. Again its within his own personal interest to claim they are clean. It would be better coming from an independent source or at least someone who doesn't gain financially from saying they are clean.

David might want to let us know "why" he knows Sky are clean? Why would he have such information?
Exactly. Even if Millar is right (and I'm actually more inclined to believe him than not), he's speaking way too confidently in things that he can't know. Okay, he's pals with Brailsford and maybe he sees and believes Brailsford's commitment to clean sport, if all of Brailsford's media blablabla is true. Maybe he's friends with some of the riders and they've talked about how great it is to be in a team environment where they're encouraged to be clean. Maybe he's even seen some blood profiles, whatever good that would do. Those would all be reasonable assumptions, if most of Sky's riders were clean, and if Brailsford is honest.

However, even if that was the case, it's cringeworthy to see him say 'As Brad clearly won clean, cycling is cleaner etc etc'. That's too much like Sky PR, pandering to the casual fan but insulting the knowledgable fan's intelligence. It's friggin annoying, and to the cynical fan, you begin to suspect he could be being dishonest instead of just PR-savvy (I suppose those two things are often the same).

It would be much better to see him say 'I believe in Sky. I've talked to Brailsford, Wiggins, whatever, and I believe them when they say they're clean' rather than out-and-out declaring them as such. But then maybe people from the other side of the equation would be asking 'why isn't he saying they're clean for sure? He must be hiding something'. Actually, I'm sure there would be people in the clinic saying that too.

Either way, the guy needs to tone it down a bit I think.
 
Mar 13, 2009
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thehog said:
Miller is compromised. He doesn't give any other team the same ringing endorsement of cleanness. He only gives the seal of clean approval to the team whereby his sister is head of PR. That is what's known as a "conflict of interest" and its the very thing he is accusing McQuaid/HVB/Armstrong of.... Miller also owns a financial stake in Garmin. Again its within his own personal interest to claim they are clean. It would be better coming from an independent source or at least someone who doesn't gain financially from saying they are clean.

David might want to let us know "why" he knows Sky are clean? Why would he have such information?
Rabobank were clean now. Dave Millar's definition, o'course.

#grain_of_salt
 
JimmyFingers said:
He's in a far better position than anyone on this forum to comment on other teams, yet it doesn't stop anyone here, incuding you, saying who is dirty in the peloton
Millar is not in a better position than anyone on this forum. For 1 he has a **** poor record at identifying clean riders having pushed his weight behind Piepoli, Contador and on a different level, Mcquaid.

For another, had he been voicing a different opinion he would be widely dismissed as a proven cheat. he is, unlike most posters on here, a proven cheat.
 
The Hitch said:
Millar is not in a better position than anyone on this forum. For 1 he has a **** poor record at identifying clean riders having pushed his weight behind Piepoli, Contador and on a different level, Mcquaid.

For another, had he been voicing a different opinion he would be widely dismissed as a proven cheat. he is, unlike most posters on here, a proven cheat.
His breakdown in that interview in TDF (2007) when told about Vino's positive has always bothered me. I mean, even a Clinic rookie wouldn't have blinked an eye at that news FFS:(

I still have a 'It's Milllar Time' T shirt though bought from his long gone web site (run by Fran). Anyone else man (and old) enough to fess up they were a duped member also?
 
Jul 17, 2012
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The Hitch said:
Millar is not in a better position than anyone on this forum. For 1 he has a **** poor record at identifying clean riders having pushed his weight behind Piepoli, Contador and on a different level, Mcquaid.

For another, had he been voicing a different opinion he would be widely dismissed as a proven cheat. he is, unlike most posters on here, a proven cheat.
Do they ride as a professional, have a first-hand experience of doping themselves, and race and train and talk with the people they are accusing on a regular basis? Your speculation and his speculation are both the same: speculation, it's just his is far more qualified i.e. in a much better position.

Then it becomes a case of whether you believe him or not.
 
Sep 29, 2012
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JimmyFingers said:
Do they ride as a professional, have a first-hand experience of doping themselves, and race and train and talk with the people they are accusing on a regular basis? Your speculation and his speculation are both the same: speculation, it's just his is far more qualified i.e. in a much better position.

Then it becomes a case of whether you believe him or not.
Is it possible that because Millar IS in there, doing all that, with all those, that the omerta has a greater impact on what he does or does not say than someone outside the circle?

He wants to be head of the UCI, remember?
 
Aug 18, 2012
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JimmyFingers said:
He's in a far better position than anyone on this forum to comment on other teams, yet it doesn't stop anyone here, incuding you, saying who is dirty in the peloton
It's not a question of inside knowledge but honesty and integrity affecting your claims - Millar has none.
 
May 3, 2010
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ferryman said:
His breakdown in that interview in TDF (2007) when told about Vino's positive has always bothered me. I mean, even a Clinic rookie wouldn't have blinked an eye at that news FFS:(

I still have a 'It's Milllar Time' T shirt though bought from his long gone web site (run by Fran). Anyone else man (and old) enough to fess up they were a duped member also?
I remember Millar from when he first broke through. Do you remember he had a column in one of the cycling monthlies? He'd be telling us all about him and Bobby J. That was when I was duped. After he got popped I went back and re-read them and saw that from start to finish the whole thing was bull**** and all about promoting David Millar.

Looking back on it, like Jimmy Savile, it was the start of a pattern. He says and will do, anything to make himself look good.

He's somewhere between a politician and a used-car salesman only slightly less trustworthy.
 
May 25, 2011
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The Hitch said:
Millar is not in a better position than anyone on this forum. For 1 he has a **** poor record at identifying clean riders having pushed his weight behind Piepoli, Contador and on a different level, Mcquaid.

For another, had he been voicing a different opinion he would be widely dismissed as a proven cheat. he is, unlike most posters on here, a proven cheat.
He called Landis "a weasel" as well, which in my opinion means backing Armstrong. Best thing he can do is keep his mouth shut.
 
JimmyFingers said:
Do they ride as a professional, have a first-hand experience of doping themselves, and race and train and talk with the people they are accusing on a regular basis? Your speculation and his speculation are both the same: speculation, it's just his is far more qualified i.e. in a much better position.

Then it becomes a case of whether you believe him or not.
In 1 ear and out the other. Did you not read my point. He was WRONG twice.

Im sorry, if he was just another rider coming out and giving his opinion then it would be harder for me to argue against your point, but we are talking about a guy with a proven record of declaring as clean guys who aren't. To put such a persons opinion on the subject on such a high pedestal is just stupid.
 
Jul 29, 2009
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I think people here maybe sometimes forget that what "most people believe" can create reality. While it is important to not be naive about what is going on with doping in the peloton it is also important to believe in change. Just put yourselves in the shoes of a neo pro entering the scene now. It is actually irrelevant what is really going on as there is no way for him to know the percentage of doping. What really matters is what he believes is going on. If he reads the Clinic he will believe that lots of doping is still going on. And where does that leave him? Cheat or be cheated. Same thing. If he believes David Millar and Team Sky and Team Garmin he maybe thinks: Great, I don't need to dope. Give it a go.
If other teams believe that Sky and Garmin are clean maybe they say: F**k, we can do it without the juice. Let's give it a go. If they believe they are not clean then they have the excuse to do it.
It is a fine line. It is crucial to open the eyes of the naive people and many members of the clinic do a brilliant job in that. But if you don't give credit or some trust to anyone anymore where does that leave you and cycling? There is no hope, only fear and disappointment. It is risky to trust again but without it nothing new will ever evolve. If you are not able to trust cycling anymore why don't you support ten-pin bowling instead then? I am sure they are clean.
 
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