Do Professional Racers Know Their Team Mates are Doping?

[elapid]

This thread is a question for current and ex-professionals that are in our midst, such as Beroepsrenner and Joe.

As professional or ex-professional racers, can you tell me whether or not you would know if one of your team mates was doping? For instance, would the rest of the Gerolsteiner team (riders and/or managers) have known that Kohl and Schumacher were doping (EPO and blood transfusions), or is it really that easy to do without your team mates knowing?

Also, how sophisticated do you think doping is in the professional peloton? Are there riders spending squillions of dollars on doctors, programs and drugs, while others cannot afford this type of setup and try different options based on heresay, internet, etc?

I think I know the reasons why cyclists dope, but am really trying to understand how possible it is for an individual to dope without the knowledge of his team or team mates, and how riders decide how and when to dope.

 

[blackcat]

yes, they know their teammates limits. And they know in the final week, what riders like Kohl can timetrial at.

If one had followed riders like Schumacher for about 8 years, you would see him win a truckload of prologues and chronos with Skil in that two year period, but he had some pretty mediocre tts in races like GP des Nations. He was not a natural chrono rider, without the big time program.

Now even at GP des Nations, he was at a T-Mobile feeder, the Jan Ullrich Development team-T-Mobile. Then T-Mobile moved their development relationship to Sparkasse.

 

[180mmCrank]

Yes they do

 

[rhubroma]

Of course they do, and thus we get the omertà.

In Italy where I have raced not as a pro, but close, once you become dilettante at 18, then soon after, if not allready then, you are introduced to the team medic (il dottore - and he is a cultural part of the team. Read between the lines.) and become emmersed in a clan of riders who either dope themselves or fill you in on what is going on. At some point, you inevitably take (or have the opportunity to) testosterone as a minimum base, before moving to, HGH and EPO. None of this is, of course, shocking to an Italian cyclist, because, like Bob Roll remarking about Belgian kids, Italian lads are not bred on naivtè and innocence the way kids back in the States frequently are.

For once you get in the saddle, doping is talked about among fellow riders. So it's out in the open at least in terms of it being widespread practice at the dilettante and pro levels. So by the time you're a pro at 23-25 years old, you're allready a seasoned veteran with it. And up until recently, team doping was common practice. Now they have to be more descrete about it. So the mouths are less chatty, but the regime has essentially remained the same.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

I think Joe's out riding (I hope so), but a search of his past posts, and other messages indicate the answer is affirmative. Bero, Francie and the others will likely concur.

An oddity is that in last year's Tour there was dissent among Gerolsteiner after Schumacher popped +. When it was announced that CERA could be detected, several of their riders were happy, and happy some guys were getting caught. Schumacher was quiet, but apparently Kohl was one of those acting happy, and he was also one to speak out saying he was clean! So it seems likely that a lot of the doping had been driven into deeper secrecy, though obviously still going on, as it's probably several of those Gerolsteiner riders were clean, and being honest, unlike Kohl who was playing along, and assumed he wouldn't get caught, as he never had before. But Gerolsteiner had deeper problems than that in the past, so who really knows.

In that infamous IM between JV and FA, JV states that Kevin Livingston said that he was astonished when he got to T-Mob to find no doping program, and that Jan's hct was like 39. On the surface, this gives the impression that T-Mobile was somehow clean circa 2001-2002. But a deeper investigation by just about anyone shows that's highly unlikely. What's more likely is that there was probably a lull of doping during that time on the team, and what doping there was at T-Mob was refined and under a veil of secrecy and very controlled in a tight circle that KL didn't know about.

 

[BroDeal]

In that infamous IM between JV and FA, JV states that Kevin Livingston said that he was astonished when he got to T-Mob to find no doping program, and that Jan's hct was like 39. On the surface, this gives the impression that T-Mobile was somehow clean circa 2001-2002. But a deeper investigation by just about anyone shows that's highly unlikely. What's more likely is that there was probably a lull of doping during that time on the team, and what doping there was at T-Mob was refined and under a veil of secrecy and very controlled in a tight circle that KL didn't know about.

That is what I would suspect: That on some teams there is an A team and a B team, the A team being small and directed where to get help with their preparation. The ProTour teams have a large number of riders. Who would want all twenty-five riders in the know, especially now that one rider might get popped and talk to the police? Does anyone think that Fumiyuki Beppu was getting the same treatment on Disco as those expected to go to the Tour?

 

[craig1985]

A lot of the Barloworld riders (where the majority of the riders speak either English or Italian, and I would assume Baden Cooke is pretty good at French, if not fluent) last year claimed they had no idea that Duenas was doping because they couldn't really talk to him since he (Duenas) only speaks Spanish, a language none of them could speak (Soler aside and he was out of the race at that point). I would believe the lack of ability to speak Spanish bit, but if you around a guy almost 24/7 then you would sort of have some idea what is going on or not. Brad Wiggins mentions this in his book that he had a gut feeling that Cristian Moreni was a doper, and he said he got on with the guy before Mo0reni failed his dope test.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

....
An oddity is that in last year's Tour there was dissent among Gerolsteiner after Schumacher popped +. When it was announced that CERA could be detected, several of their riders were happy, and happy some guys were getting caught. Schumacher was quiet, but apparently Kohl was one of those acting happy, and he was also one to speak out saying he was clean! So it seems likely that a lot of the doping had been driven into deeper secrecy, though obviously still going on, as it's probably several of those Gerolsteiner riders were clean, and being honest, unlike Kohl who was playing along, and assumed he wouldn't get caught, as he never had before. But Gerolsteiner had deeper problems than that in the past, so who really knows....

Actually I read recently that Kohl confirmed that story about the riders on the Gerolsteiner bus being happy - when he was asked what his reaction was he said he was sitting at the very top of the bus and no-one could see him- I will try and dig up a link to it.

Alpe - agreed, after Operation Puerto the practices would be run very differently. Again Kohl said last year that it went through his manager, and also Kohl mentions Rassmussen shared the cost.
On the other side it appears that he didn't know about TinTin or Schumacher.

 

[blackcat]

I think Joe's out riding (I hope so), but a search of his past posts, and other messages indicate the answer is affirmative. Bero, Francie and the others will likely concur.

An oddity is that in last year's Tour there was dissent among Gerolsteiner after Schumacher popped +. When it was announced that CERA could be detected, several of their riders were happy, and happy some guys were getting caught. Schumacher was quiet, but apparently Kohl was one of those acting happy, and he was also one to speak out saying he was clean! So it seems likely that a lot of the doping had been driven into deeper secrecy, though obviously still going on, as it's probably several of those Gerolsteiner riders were clean, and being honest, unlike Kohl who was playing along, and assumed he wouldn't get caught, as he never had before. But Gerolsteiner had deeper problems than that in the past, so who really knows.

In that infamous IM between JV and FA, JV states that Kevin Livingston said that he was astonished when he got to T-Mob to find no doping program, and that Jan's hct was like 39. On the surface, this gives the impression that T-Mobile was somehow clean circa 2001-2002. But a deeper investigation by just about anyone shows that's highly unlikely. What's more likely is that there was probably a lull of doping during that time on the team, and what doping there was at T-Mob was refined and under a veil of secrecy and very controlled in a tight circle that KL didn't know about.

but JV is either incredibly naive, or he had some agenda to make Armstrong look bad.

Because Moreau has always been charged. And he said CM was clean. Wrong. There is word he got popped last year for Agritubel, but it was one of those test positives, that just disappear.

Like Cancellara going home from Cali after blasting the prologue. Obviously he had to go to Aigle and visit Rumpf and McQuaid to cover this up.

And unfortunately, Landis' life is ****ed up, and all he did, is what the other riders did. Yet some are covered up, and some are scapegoats. And Liggett and Sherwen play their role beautifully.

 

[blackcat]

That is what I would suspect: That on some teams there is an A team and a B team, the A team being small and directed where to get help with their preparation. The ProTour teams have a large number of riders. Who would want all twenty-five riders in the know, especially now that one rider might get popped and talk to the police? Does anyone think that Fumiyuki Beppu was getting the same treatment on Disco as those expected to go to the Tour?

Actually Bro, have a look at Fumi's tt in Langkawi in... (thinking) '06. There was a chrono in 06 in Langkawi. Fumi is damn high in the classification for a very mediocre rider who would not be on a roster if he was not Japanese.

They obviously charged the Postal bus in Solvang at the pre-season training camp. Wonder who was providing them with the gear.

2005 Tour actually. Beppu would have been 22. I think. Memory folks.

1 Nathan O'Neill (Aus) Navigators Insurance 24.42.76 (49.29 km/h)
2 Ryan Cox (RSA) Barloworld 0.04.82
3 Jose Rujano (Ven) Colombia Selle Italia 0.15.25
4 Tiaan Kannemeyer (RSA) Barloworld 0.20.94
5 Michael Barry (Can) Discovery Channel 0.24.19
6 Marlon Perez Arango (Col) Colombia Selle Italia 0.27.36
7 Bogdan Bondariew (Ukr) Action 0.36.54
8 David Plaza Romero (Spa) Barloworld 0.37.81
9 Tom Danielson (USA) Discovery Channel 0.41.97
10 Fumiyuki Beppu (Jpn) Discovery Channel 0.43.50
11 Russell Van Hout (Aus) Colombia Selle Italia 0.51.96
12 Jurgen Van De Walle (Bel) Landbouwkrediet-Colnago 0.53.93
13 Tom Southam (GBr) Barloworld 0.53.98
14 Sergio Ghisalberti (Ita) Domina Vacanze 0.55.02
15 Benjamin John Day (Aus) Mr Bookmaker.Com-Sports Tech 0.55.07
16 Alireza Haghi (IRI) Iran 0.56.94
17 David McCann (Irl) Ireland 0.59.22
18 Michael Creed (USA) Discovery Channel 1.02.72
19 Antonio Cruz (USA) Discovery Channel 1.09.26
20 Brett Lancaster (Aus) Ceramica Panaria - Navigare 1.10.19
21 Piotr Chmielewski (Pol) Action 1.13.62
22 Jorg Jaksche (Ger) Liberty Seguros 1.14.18


ok, from the bottom, who he beat, Jaksche, no 'xplanation.
Lancaster, very strong prologue rider, can ride a decent chrono.
Day, by memory, 11th in 2004 Worlds tt.
who beat him: Plaza, who beat him, brother of Ruben assume, think David can ride a chrono too.
Cox, decent chrono rider, but always GC in Langkawi, so motivated.
Kannemeyer, a second in a tt at Tour de l'Avenir.
Russ Van Hout has a third place, or even second place, in the Dutch national chrono champs, circa 2003/4. Also a 5th or a 6th in the Giro chrono of about 2005.
Nathan ONeil has won about 4 Aus tt champs. And come top 15 twice in the worlds, and in 2001, think he was 3rd or 4th on two occasions, may be 2000, when Leipheimer was second.

Anyone think Fumi did not get magic injections in Solvang?

Fumi has been clean at Skil I assume. Did come out of VC La Pomme Marseille, dont think they are clean.

 

[blackcat]

A lot of the Barloworld riders (where the majority of the riders speak either English or Italian, and I would assume Baden Cooke is pretty good at French, if not fluent) last year claimed they had no idea that Duenas was doping because they couldn't really talk to him since he (Duenas) only speaks Spanish, a language none of them could speak (Soler aside and he was out of the race at that point). I would believe the lack of ability to speak Spanish bit, but if you around a guy almost 24/7 then you would sort of have some idea what is going on or not. Brad Wiggins mentions this in his book that he had a gut feeling that Cristian Moreni was a doper, and he said he got on with the guy before Mo0reni failed his dope test.

does Brad say he has a gut feeling any of his GB teammates are dopers? If not, he really should STFU.

 

[Jonathan]

When Dave Bruylandts was caught, it suddenly became public knowledge that his fellow riders called him 'Dr. Dave'. That's one of those things one would like to know earlier, but the rider's aren't telling.

 

[blackcat]

When Dave Bruylandts was caught, it suddenly became public knowledge that his fellow riders called him 'Dr. Dave'. That's one of those things one would like to know earlier, but the rider's aren't telling.

actually, I was aware of Dr Dave's nick, prior to that.

 

[Mongol_Waaijer]

Last year I rode a stage race where Dr. Dave was riding.

It was a running dare for us to sidle up to him and call him "Dr. Dave" in our best Flemish accent.

He didn't like it much.

 

[Jonathan]

Last year I rode a stage race where Dr. Dave was riding.

It was a running dare for us to sidle up to him and call him "Dr. Dave" in our best Flemish accent.

He didn't like it much.

'Allez, Dokterr Deaff!'

 

[A moron]

Yes they do

No, they don't... Many of them may suspect teammates of doing so, but those who are clean are not involved in these things!

But most clean riders realise why they can keep up with world champs in the first two trainings camps, and why they don't later in the season!

I think only few of them can say "I have seen him taking those pills" and so on... This might have been the way it worked before 98', when everybody was doing it.

 

[Digger]

Apparently David Millar left Saunier Duval due to his 'suspicions' regarding his teammates...

 

[Escarabajo]

No, they don't... Many of them may suspect teammates of doing so, but those who are clean are not involved in these things!

But most clean riders realise why they can keep up with world champs in the first two trainings camps, and why they don't later in the season!

I think only few of them can say "I have seen him taking those pills" and so on... This might have been the way it worked before 98', when everybody was doing it.

Your point of view seems very reasonable. I have to agree that maybe before 1998 or even 2006, it was the case that everybody knew in the team who was doing what, but nowdays it looks to be a lot harder. You can suspect of peers leaving the hotel alone for an hour. But to actually see anything is another thing.

 

[blackcat]

Apparently David Millar left Saunier Duval due to his 'suspicions' regarding his teammates...

well, why was Millar going to Cecchini with Maxi Sciandri?

A little hypocritical no? He was prepared to see the good doctor, for training and nutritional advice, a doctor who had been compromised beyond measure like Ferrari.

To me, this indicates a worse intention, than his teammates on Saunier, actually charging. Because he now spins it as "Saunier were shocking in their ethical practises".

Well, yeah they were. But why the f did you go to Cecchini. He is part of the dark side. This action is instructive. Millar cannot deny the subtext, and it is hypocritical in the extreme.

When Vino was popped in 2006, he said to Paul Kimmage he was "surprised at Vino, he had no idea, and he was disappointed as Vino was his favourite rider" -words to that effect.

So, you tell me. Was Millar telling the truth there. And, was he being expedient, dishing the dirt on Saunier Duval. Remember, Slipstream is trying to position themselves as the clean team, ergo, everyone else is not clean.

So, how does this fit with Saunier. Is this not good for their communications strategy. You have Saunier painted as dirty, which they were, in him and his squad, as pure. When Millar himself, went to see Ceccho. Is this credible, do you buy this message? It seems hypocritical in the extreme and duplicitous. You do not pick your time to tell the truth, and you cannot pick your time to go to a notorious doctor. You either do these things, and they betray intent, or you act differently, which is instructive to an alternative scenario.

 

[Turd Ferguson]

A lot of the Barloworld riders (where the majority of the riders speak either English or Italian, and I would assume Baden Cooke is pretty good at French, if not fluent) last year claimed they had no idea that Duenas was doping because they couldn't really talk to him since he (Duenas) only speaks Spanish, a language none of them could speak (Soler aside and he was out of the race at that point).

They don't need to speak the same language, they speak the international language of doping. Lucky Soler left, he would have been popped at some point too...well maybe a few years ago when he came into great form.

Teamates do know, but like most of you said, it has become much more secretive. I'm sure they all spill the beans at the end of the season party anyways....Yay, I didn't get caught this year, lets party!!! (Enter Boonen)

 

[Digger]

well, why was Millar going to Cecchini with Maxi Sciandri?

A little hypocritical no? He was prepared to see the good doctor, for training and nutritional advice, a doctor who had been compromised beyond measure like Ferrari.

To me, this indicates a worse intention, than his teammates on Saunier, actually charging. Because he now spins it as "Saunier were shocking in their ethical practises".

Well, yeah they were. But why the f did you go to Cecchini. He is part of the dark side. This action is instructive. Millar cannot deny the subtext, and it is hypocritical in the extreme.

When Vino was popped in 2006, he said to Paul Kimmage he was "surprised at Vino, he had no idea, and he was disappointed as Vino was his favourite rider" -words to that effect.

So, you tell me. Was Millar telling the truth there. And, was he being expedient, dishing the dirt on Saunier Duval. Remember, Slipstream is trying to position themselves as the clean team, ergo, everyone else is not clean.

So, how does this fit with Saunier. Is this not good for their communications strategy. You have Saunier painted as dirty, which they were, in him and his squad, as pure. When Millar himself, went to see Ceccho. Is this credible, do you buy this message? It seems hypocritical in the extreme and duplicitous. You do not pick your time to tell the truth, and you cannot pick your time to go to a notorious doctor. You either do these things, and they betray intent, or you act differently, which is instructive to an alternative scenario.

Lol....Look at the thread title maybe, before you launch into a rant about David!!!! Completely going beyond topic. For the record, it was 2007 that Vino was busted...Secondly, he wasn't even talking to Kimmage at that stage, as Paul was still pi$$ed wit him. Those words were said at a press conference during the Tour, to a number of journos, and Paul reported on the apparent contradictions of those words, the following Sunday. I suggest you read Paul's interview with David from last year's Tour to address your questions, and the difficulty David found (mentally) in going from being a doper to a clean rider. He admits himself there are contradictions in his first year or so back....

 

[Escarabajo]

They don't need to speak the same language, they speak the international language of doping. Lucky Soler left, he would have been popped at some point too...well maybe a few years ago when he came into great form.

Teamates do know, but like most of you said, it has become much more secretive. I'm sure they all spill the beans at the end of the season party anyways....Yay, I didn't get caught this year, lets party!!! (Enter Boonen)

Not anymore. Look at Thomas Dekker.

 

[Eva Maria]

well, why was Millar going to Cecchini with Maxi Sciandri?

A little hypocritical no? He was prepared to see the good doctor, for training and nutritional advice, a doctor who had been compromised beyond measure like Ferrari.

To me, this indicates a worse intention, than his teammates on Saunier, actually charging. Because he now spins it as "Saunier were shocking in their ethical practises".

Well, yeah they were. But why the f did you go to Cecchini. He is part of the dark side. This action is instructive. Millar cannot deny the subtext, and it is hypocritical in the extreme.

When Vino was popped in 2006, he said to Paul Kimmage he was "surprised at Vino, he had no idea, and he was disappointed as Vino was his favourite rider" -words to that effect.

So, you tell me. Was Millar telling the truth there. And, was he being expedient, dishing the dirt on Saunier Duval. Remember, Slipstream is trying to position themselves as the clean team, ergo, everyone else is not clean.

So, how does this fit with Saunier. Is this not good for their communications strategy. You have Saunier painted as dirty, which they were, in him and his squad, as pure. When Millar himself, went to see Ceccho. Is this credible, do you buy this message? It seems hypocritical in the extreme and duplicitous. You do not pick your time to tell the truth, and you cannot pick your time to go to a notorious doctor. You either do these things, and they betray intent, or you act differently, which is instructive to an alternative scenario.

Miller never went to Checcini.

When Miller came back into the sport he was getting training advice from Max Sciandri, who runs the UK's U23 program in Italy. Max trained under Cecchini when he was a pro and based his training philosophy on Cecchini's methods (Less the drugs, hopefully).

Miller never worked directly with Checchini, but used training programs from Sciandri that were based on Checcini's theories.

Unlike Ferrari Checchini is an actual coach, Ferrari is a Hematologist. The messy stuff Checcho outsourced to Fuentes.

 

[blackcat]

Lol....Look at the thread title maybe, before you launch into a rant about David!!!! Completely going beyond topic. For the record, it was 2007 that Vino was busted...Secondly, he wasn't even talking to Kimmage at that stage, as Paul was still pi$$ed wit him. Those words were said at a press conference during the Tour, to a number of journos, and Paul reported on the apparent contradictions of those words, the following Sunday. I suggest you read Paul's interview with David from last year's Tour to address your questions, and the difficulty David found (mentally) in going from being a doper to a clean rider. He admits himself there are contradictions in his first year or so back....

actually, don't try and correct me on an error of the year, when the actual reporting was correct.

There was an interview, on verus, or some station had covered it, Kimmage asked the question. And Millar answered it. You fricken find it, but dont tell me what happened, because I was correct.

You find the footage Digger, issue a retraction.

 

[blackcat]

Miller never went to Checcini.

When Miller came back into the sport he was getting training advice from Max Sciandri, who runs the UK's U23 program in Italy. Max trained under Cecchini when he was a pro and based his training philosophy on Cecchini's methods (Less the drugs, hopefully).

Miller never worked directly with Checchini, but used training programs from Sciandri that were based on Checcini's theories.

Unlike Ferrari Checchini is an actual coach, Ferrari is a Hematologist. The messy stuff Checcho outsourced to Fuentes.

actually, he was going to ceccho til it became public. Then there was a stink, and Brailsford wanted him off the Ceccho spell.