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Dominance in Tour Victories

OK, so here come some more numbers. This time it is number of stages Tour victors win during their victories. Quick overview – I did leave out wins in team time trials, as that seemed fairer. And I went back to 1969, just to include Merckx, as he seemed to be most likely to be the gold standard on this. And I did include Armstrong in this, as well as Contador in 2010 and Landis in 2006 as alternate winners. Also worth mentioning is that I have no sense of the history of the Tour going anywhere near that far back, so any conclusions or hypotheses I may come up with should be considered with that in mind. And, finally, I did the research on this fairly quickly, so may have made a mistake or two.

Eddy Merckx is the Tour champion who won the most stages during a Tour victory since 1969, with eight in both the 1970 and 1974 Tours. Hinault won 7 stages in 1979, and Merckx won another 6 stages in the 1969 and 1972 Tours. And, in something I was unaware of, Ocana won 6 stages in the 1973 Tour. Fignon comes in with 5 stages in the 1984 Tour, as does Hinault in 1981, and Armstrong in 2004.

The next thing worth addressing, and this is where I started with this research, is whether winning four stages and the Tour is a significant accomplishment among Tour winners. Clearly, it is significant in cycling, but is that a point at which one can separate a Tour victory from a dominant Tour victory, or, in different terms, are these winners in a separate echelon from other Tour victors?

If the dividing line is winning five stages, then we have the list above covering nearly the last fifty years of the Tour. If it is winning four stages, then Nibali gets included. I think that sort of answers the question for most, as putting Nibali into a group with Merckx, Hinault, and Fignon seems on its face unwarranted. I don’t have enough of a sense of Ocana to be able to fairly assess him as a Tour rider, but that accomplishment of six stage wins and a Tour victory suggests that he was a remarkable rider. And Armstrong is Armstrong at this point – all the opinions on him have been opined at this point, and no point in doing it again, really, but on the road, he is a fair shout (at the least) to include with Hinault, Fignon, and Ocana.

So, if we make the dividing line winning five or more stages in a Tour victory, then no current rider matches the accomplishments of the five listed above. I suspect the argument that the Tour is not the same race as it was in the era of Merckx through Hinault holds some water, and deserves consideration in why the only rider since then to make it into the group is Armstrong, but all things considered, that does not explain Indurain or Lemond, clearly dominant Tour winners, at least in some sense of the term, not being able to accomplish what the others have. And, looking at this another way, there was a gap of twenty years between Fignon winning five stages and the Tour in 1984 and Armstrong doing so in 2004. This isn’t something that happens all the time, and perhaps we are just in an interim before it happens again.

Or, another way to look at this, claims to unusual dominance by any current Tour winners are probably premature. The numbers I am bringing into this are just one slice of the total picture, but I think this is a reasonable way to assess Tour performances. I do have the year-by-year breakdown if anyone wants me to post that in here, and I suppose it is mildly interesting reading.
 
I think stage wins might not tell the whole story in terms of dominance. Look at Froome in 2013 for example. Three stage wins, but the flat TT was arguably his most dominant performance of all the stages - putting in two minutes on the closest of his rivals.
 
I thought Nibali was pretty dominant. He had his stage wins in the mountains, but also his performance on the cobbles was one of the great stage rides of recent Tours, there just happened to be one cobble specialist who finished ahead of him.

Froome last year was as complete a Tour performance as you could ask for. He won in the mountains, TTs, and even jumped away on a crosswind stage for good measure. Again, like Nibali in 2014, on that crosswind stage he happened to have the green jersey in the break with him, so finished 2nd, but he was in complete control. There were other days in the mountains where he finished ahead of or with most other GC contenders, but because breaks were up the road there wasn't a stage win to worry about.

Short answer, I don't think a simple number like "x stage wins" makes one Tour win better than another.
 
Even though Indurain never won a road stage during his five Tour winning years, I think that he was indeed considered extremely dominant. He was just not too greedy and didn't need to hunt for stages outside the time trials, where he put his rivals in their places.
 
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I think we won't see anyone like Merckx anymore, he could win either a bunch sprint, a TT or a MTF. The more terrains you can win on, the more victories you bring home given that there's enough fitness and a bit of luck. Now there's too much specialization. We can still see some extraordinary rider monopolizing the GC for a few consecutive years like Froome did with the TDF but I don't think it's physically possible to fight for every stage and also bring the yellow jersey at home.
 
Re:

DFA123 said:
I think stage wins might not tell the whole story in terms of dominance. Look at Froome in 2013 for example. Three stage wins, but the flat TT was arguably his most dominant performance of all the stages - putting in two minutes on the closest of his rivals.
Or Armstrong 2001, his most dominant performance. Froome had his problems in the Alps.
 
I have no idea where that is coming from...

I just thought that you misunderstood what the OP said (because all he said was that for fairness, TTTs were omitted, not ITTs).

I don't really understand how that comment can put me in such a bad light, but allright then.
 
It's not the number of stage wins, but the gap to and the name of the runner-up. To put some perspective:

NIbali 2014 put more than 7 min to Peraud
Fignon 1984 put more than 10 min to Hinault
Ocaña 1973 put almost 16 min to Thevenet.

What Ocaña did in a single stage through Madeleine, Galibier, Izoard and Les Orres is the definition of an epic ride. He went alone with Fuente in Galibier, with more than 130km to the finish. The 3rd in the stage arrived 7 minutes behind. Compare that to a ride of 50km through cobbles or a series of last climb attacks to take 1 or 2 minutes in each MTF.
 
Re:

Dazed and Confused said:
Why doesn't ITTs count?

Also Ocana was one of the greatest tour riders of all time, but he was up against EM and quite a bit of bad luck.
Sorry if I was not clear, but when I came up with the numbers on stage wins, ITTs were counted, but TTTs were not.
 
I didn't watch any of these mentioned dominant tour wins, except Nibali's. But to be honest, I doubt Nibali was any less dominant than Fignon or Armstrong. The guy already won stage two, then crushed all his rivals on the cobbles and after that was around 4 classes above everyone else in the mountains.
However his two strongest rivals both crashed and the 4th of the big 4 wasn't riding the tour. That most likely means he was not as strong as the other dominant riders but under the for him relatively easy circumstances he was still incredibly dominant.
 
There's a big difference in how Tours looked between Merckx's era and now. In 1970 there were 29 stages. In those days they would often have two stages in a day. Typically a flat stage in the morning and a short TT in the afternoon.

They would also have many more TTs. And this was an era before TT specialists - the GC riders were the specialists.

In 1970, four of Merckx's eight wins were time trials, three under 10km. In 1981 four of Hinault's wins were TTs (25 stages that year). That just doesn't happen these days.

In my time watching the Tour (30 years now), Armstrong in 2004 was the most dominant.
 
While I applaud the effort, many Tour winners such as Anquetil or Indurain didn't give a toss about stage wins.
Not to mention of course the issue of stage numbers that Parker explains so well, or how domestiques are so much closer in level to leaders nowadays which has led to more spread out wins and far far smaller winning margins (and a lot less attacking).

For example, Indurain's 1995 win was one of the most crushingly dominant I've seen. It was actually more dominant than Lance 2004. On one stage he realized a rider minutes ahead had become a danger and just by upping the pace, without even attacking, nobody could hold his wheel. In a few short kms he put several minutes into every one of the other GC contenders.

Yet he only took 2 stage wins, both time trials. Because he didn't care about stage wins.

Or better yet, the year before that. 1994. Indurain was similarly dominant. He again tried to drop others only on one climb, and murdered everyone. Then followed wheels the rest of the Tour. He won only 1 stage and yet won the Tour by over 5 minutes. If we exclude Ugrumov who was allowed to gain 15 minutes in breakaways because he was down on GC, Indurain won that Tour by over 7. Nobody was even close to threatening him. 1 stage win.

I appreciate the effort, but it's a flawed metric by any standard

Heck, even looking at the old days of Merckx. Ocaña doesn't make your list, yet his 1973 win was far more dominant and impressive than every Merckx Tour win other than 1969.
 
Re:

GuyIncognito said:
Heck, even looking at the old days of Merckx. Ocaña doesn't make your list, yet his 1973 win was far more dominant and impressive than every Merckx Tour win other than 1969.
He does mention Ocana in 1973. The problem with that though is the absence of Merckx (just as the absence of Froome & Contador hurts Nibali). A win is a win but 40 odd years later people point out that was the one Merckx skipped (a little unfairly as many think he would have won in 71 if he hadn't crashed)
 
A number of people have raised persuasive arguments against the utility of the metric involved here. The only counter-argument I will bring up is that I think the level of competition may vary from year to year, but not as significantly as it may seem at the time. Likewise, the variance in the level of competition over time is fairly narrowly bounded, or at least so it seems to me.

But the number of stages being larger is definitely something that could make a difference, as is the absence of a need to win stages for the strongest riders.

As always, this is only my perspective, and I am often wrong.
 
No one is right or wrong here :) ...it's a matter of angles, how you look at it.

For me, numbers are not too relevant: the story is, the riders are. Merckx was a monster, a dominant rider, when he won, it was the result of his domination. Nothing subbtle with Eddy: he'd bludgeon the opposition in to submission. '71 was the exception, against a great Luis Ocana who gave him a run for his money and could have won the whole thing.

Hinault was the same: he was the strongest, the most aggressive, he would beat up those who stood in his way. Except in '84 when he lost to a super Fignon.

BigMig didn't win many stages, but when he did, it was Tour-over. That's domination. By stage 9, we all knew that he had it in the bag. the other riders knew it too.

The same can be said about Lance and Froome: when the other contenders don't show up to win but fight for second, that's a clear sign of one's domination.

LeMond was a fantastic champion, he dominated the '86 Tour, but not in '89 or '90 (that one is debatable - Chappucci make it look like the hare and the tortoise for most of the Tour).

Evans won in the very end, Wiggo was not the dominant rider in his own team...Roche, Delgado were the best in '87 and '88, but didn't dominate.

Nibali had 2 1/2 minutes over Froome and Berto before they dropped, he dominated before the mountains were evn there, and the dominated everyone.

That's how I look at it...usually stage wins and time gaps confirm actual domination, but not always.
 
Ocana was probably the most aggressive rider in the history of the tour imo. Note: with reference to serious contenders.

luisocana.jpg


Of course he was also brilliant against the clock.
 
Gigs_98 said:
I didn't watch any of these mentioned dominant tour wins, except Nibali's. But to be honest, I doubt Nibali was any less dominant than Fignon or Armstrong. The guy already won stage two, then crushed all his rivals on the cobbles and after that was around 4 classes above everyone else in the mountains.
However his two strongest rivals both crashed and the 4th of the big 4 wasn't riding the tour. That most likely means he was not as strong as the other dominant riders but under the for him relatively easy circumstances he was still incredibly dominant.
It was less dominant. Nibali was very impressive, but Armstrong was extraterrestrial against stronger competition (only Pantani was missing) in 2001. He beat Ullrich to a pulp. Fignon was class in 1984, and could never again match it.
 
Roche, Delgado were the best in '87 and '88, but didn't dominate.

Roche and Evans won two of the most closely fought, open to all comers, Tours in recent memory. In both cases, any of the top 5 or more would have been considered genuine GC threats until very late in the race.

Delgado, though, finished 17s behind Rooks on stage 12 to Alpe d'Huez, took the race lead, followed it up by winning the TT the next day, and never lost time to another contender for the rest of the race, finishing with a 7 minute cushion. That's pretty dominant in anyone's language.
 
Leinster said:
Roche, Delgado were the best in '87 and '88, but didn't dominate.

Roche and Evans won two of the most closely fought, open to all comers, Tours in recent memory. In both cases, any of the top 5 or more would have been considered genuine GC threats until very late in the race.

Delgado, though, finished 17s behind Rooks on stage 12 to Alpe d'Huez, took the race lead, followed it up by winning the TT the next day, and never lost time to another contender for the rest of the race, finishing with a 7 minute cushion. That's pretty dominant in anyone's language.
I remember this Tour very well, he was the favorite and prevailed. But it wasn't dominant, as far as I define it. Dominant is that: leaving no doubt. From start to finish. The guy with an iron fist. Pedro Delgado left us fans wondering. Nothing like the LA or Dawg in recent years.
 
A lot of great performances have been mentioned this thread but there's another that stands out for me and that's Contador in 2009. The time gaps may not have been as big as 1997 or 2014 but the demolition job he did on that parcours was spectacular, and he even soft pedalled Ventoux.