Doping in (modern-day) Germany

[sniper]

German doping doc Wilfried Kindermann, a leading researcher in experiments on German athletes with steroids and testosterone in the 70s, tried to get both Testo and steroids off the banned list.

Kindermann, long term member of the German NADA (up to at least 2009).
http://www.nolympia.de/2013/04/die-doping-connection-deutsche-sportarzte-und-der-dsbdosb/

Kindermann, from 2000 to 2008 head medic of the German Olympic team.
https://idw-online.de/de/news66757

 

[sniper]

Kindermann

Doctor at 8 olympic games; leading doctor German Olympic team from 2000-2008

Leading doctor of German athletics federation 1989-1996

Team doctor German national soccer team 1990-2000

Chief Medical Officer (LOC CMO) Soccre world cup 2006

Chief of DOSB Medical expert committee until 2010

Member of medical committee UEFA 2002-2011

Member of ethics committee of the German NADA (Nationalen Anti-Doping-Agentur) until 2012

Member of NADA doping control system until 2016

Member fo medical committee German soccor federation (DFB)

Member of DFB antidoping committee.

Member of think tank "Science" of the DFB

Member of German athletics antidoping committee

http://sportmedizin-saarbruecken.de/de/staff/univ-prof-em-dr-med-wilfried-kindermann

So that's the guy who in the 70s was conducting testosterone and steroids experiments on athletes and (in several studies coauthored with proven doping doctor Joseph Keul) tried to trivialize the notorious side effects of said PEDs. Also coauthored a testosterone study in the 80s with EPO doctor Heinz Liesen.
http://www.cycling4fans.de/index.php?id=4471
Kindermann later known to have administered blood thinner HES in the 90s, a product known to 'smoothen' EPO use and mask transfusions.
http://www.nolympia.de/2013/04/die-doping-connection-deutsche-sportarzte-und-der-dsbdosb/

A bright world we live in.

 

[Red Rick]

Good find Sniper.

Bright world indeed.

 

[sniper]

Cheers RR.


So in the late 80s we have Liesen, Keul and Kindermann working together on controversial testosterone studies. Liesen doing state-funded EPO research. Kindermann later exposed administering HES (typically used in combo with EPO and/or transfusions) to a T&F athlete.
Both Kindermann and Liesen becoming key figures in the medical staff of the German nationalmannschaft between 86 and 2000.

A salient find with implications for knowledge of doping in soccer and of early EPO usage in general.

https://twitter.com/MaRoVisions/status/815810070898425856

Liesen is a very well known notorious doper, a lot of his work is related to ergogenetic effects of Testo in sports. He is also popular for his emphatic relationsship with athletes, much like Müller-Wohlfahrt. He only moved on to soccer at some point for financial reasons, I guess.

Still in 2011 Liesen advocated for the legalization of testoterone, claiming its use as a so-called 'substitution' drug (read: regeneration) should be allowed.
http://www.badische-zeitung.de/sportpolitik/dopingstreit-unter-aerzten

Liesen allegedly also worked with Eddy Merckx in the 70s.
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heinz_Liesen

 

[Mr.38%]

From the top of my head, I remember his name also from soccer WC in Mexico where he doped our German team to the gills. Toni Schumacher wrote his book in the fallout of that tournament.

 

[Mr.38%]

There is a weird guy, Jochen Tiffe. Everybody knows him in my area, he was the only professional racer with a cat3 licence (for real...). In one of his many erruptions on the net he accused Huber, Keul et al in a very precise series of postings in popular German cycling forum, detailing more or less everything plus adding racist, profane cursing every second sentence. It was amazing and totally craptastic.

Edit: http://www.rennrad-news.de/forum/threads/paffrath-artikel.11188/

And there is a lot more from him (RadsportABC), his ebay offer texts were craptastic, too. Blaming everyone and the world for everything. Insanity but he was there (in Freiburg) and done that.

 

[Aragon]

Re:

What is not yet mentioned here is that Heinz Liesen was a coauthor of one of the earliest blood doping studies published as early as 1975 (carried out a year or two earlier). Unlike some of the earliest blood doping inquiries, this working paper found a huge improvement in the exercise capacity of the subjects, but was not well-known in the world because it was published in a German-language publication:

Experiments were carried out on 17 athletes in order to determine the extent to which erythrocytic autotransfusion might influence their cardiopulmonary capacity... After the erythrocytic autotransfusion the maximum O2 intake per minute rose by an average 9 %, and the maximum possible working time oin the treadmill rose by 37 %...

(R. Rost, W. Hollmann, H. Liesen, D. Schulten: "Über den Einfluß einer Erythrozyten-Retransfusion auf die kardio-pulmonare Leistungsfähigkeit", Sportarzt und Sportmedizin, 26:137-144, 1975)

While the reference to the alleged rEPO-project by Heinz Liesen in 1989 is with no doubt interesting, only one of the two research lines actually dealt with administering rEPO to participants and it is far from clear that it even ever materialized, at least Giselher Spitzer found only a vague reference to the whole project a year later. The 1988 outline of the "EPO-research" quoted by Spitzer reads actually more like a preliminary "green light" than any concrete plan and the idea may have been dropped or modified for one reason or another, one reason being that Swedes started their own rEPO project at the beginning of 1989 and reported about their findings around October 1989.

Giselher Spitzer's rEPO/Liesen-findings are in this link in pages 102-103. Perhaps someone more fluent in German can make something more out of it:
http://www.bisp.de/SharedDocs/Downloads/Aktuelles/Inhaltlicher_Bericht_HU.pdf?__blob=publicationFile

 

[Tienus]

The old DDR state sponsored doping at the Leipzig Hochschule für Körperkultur
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deutsche_Hochschule_f%C3%BCr_K%C3%B6rperkultur
There is a big list of trainers / teacher at the bottom. Many of them remained involved some of them are still involved.

 

[sniper]

Cheers Aragon.
I knew about Hollmann doing research on blood doping, with which (iirc) he officially started in 1973.
Didn't know about Liesen's involvement in the 1975 study, which is interesting as he allegedly was also coaching Merckx in that period.

Good link Tienus.
I just randomly clicked on the name Bernd Stange, and came across this salient bit:

From 2002 to 2004 he trained the Irak national soccer team. Despite the difficult political situation his team qualified for the 2004 Olympics, (...) where they reached 4th place.

In 2005 he took charge of the Cypriotic first division soccer team Apollon Limassol. He managed to bring the team from the before-last place to 7th place. In the next season he did a work of art: without a single loss Limassol won the league. That same year Apollon Limassol also won the Cypriotic supercup.
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernd_Stange

It's clear why these coaches are still wanted, despite (read: thanks to) their association with East Germany.
Well, except Heiko Salzwedel of course, who is no doubt above board.

@mr38%, yeah, Liesen's involvement in 86 Mexico is well documented, thanks to Schumann a.o.
This Tiffe guy is going full *** there! Uncut.

 

[sniper]

Is Germany a frontrunner in the global PED industry?

From the CIRC report:

One rider who tested positive at the Tour explained that he had received CERA from his
doctor, who had got it from a person in Monaco, who in turn had acquired it from
Germany.
http://www.uci.ch/mm/Document/News/CleanSport/16/87/99/CIRCReport2015_Neutral.pdf

George Karl says NBA has an issue with doping:

"We’ve got a more thorough drug-testing program than the NFL or MLB, which we always brag about. But we’ve still got a drug issue, though a different one than thirty years ago. And this one bothers me more than the dumbasses who got in trouble with recreational drugs.

I’m talking about performance-enhancing drugs—like steroids, human growth hormone, and so on. It’s obvious some of our players are doping. How are some guys getting older—yet thinner and fitter? How are they recovering from injuries so fast? Why the hell are they going to Germany in the off-season? I doubt it’s for the sauerkraut.”
http://ftw.usatoday.com/2016/12/nba-ped-drug-testing-george-karl-book

 

[sniper]

Had almost forgotten about the stuff about former East Germany doping coach Bernd Pansold, Red Bull, and RB Leipzig (currently 2nd behind Bayern Munich in the Bundesliga):

viewtopic.php?p=1857935#p1857935

The lack of scrutiny is unreal.

 

[BullsFan22]

Re:

Had almost forgotten about the stuff about former East Germany doping coach Bernd Pansold, Red Bull, and RB Leipzig (currently 2nd behind Bayern Munich in the Bundesliga):

viewtopic.php?p=1857935#p1857935

The lack of scrutiny is unreal.

Hard to scrutinize now, no more Communism. No more East Germany.

 

[sniper]

Yeah, but I mean, RB Leipzig are second in the Bundesliga and literally nobody in the German press dares or bothers to ask if there might be a medical explanation, despite the blatant doping links.

 

[BullsFan22]

Re:

Yeah, but I mean, RB Leipzig are second in the Bundesliga and literally nobody in the German press dares or bothers to ask if there might be a medical explanation, despite the blatant doping links.

The last time the German press SERIOUSLY talked about doping IN GERMANY was probably in 2007 when first Ullrich retired and later that year when after Sinkewitz was popped, the German ARD and ZDF stopped broadcasting the Tour de France.

Since then if there is any significant talk of doping it's largely about other countries, namely Russian, Kenya, Spain. The German press knows better than to throw mud at the Bundesliga.

 

[Mr.38%]

Re:

Yeah, but I mean, RB Leipzig are second in the Bundesliga and literally nobody in the German press dares or bothers to ask if there might be a medical explanation, despite the blatant doping links.

Especially because history is repeating after SC Freiburg, the PED one-hit wonder.

 

[Mr.38%]

So the EPO doping case of an Amateur/Conti rider just appeared in the NADA "database" after over one and a half year.

After a doping case, the german cycling federation handed a German Champion's jersey over to the real champ of a masters class just before the following event.

 

[Mr.38%]

Re:

So the EPO doping case of an Amateur/Conti rider just appeared in the NADA "database" after over one and a half year.

And what happened/did he do to seamlessly become official employee in a swiss Conti (later Pro Conti) team?

This stuff always gives me headaches.