Doping in XC skiing

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High tempo is not a red flag for me. I am one big dude and I run at higher cadence than most Johaug types. Because I trained myself to do it. As a big guy, skiing obviously that's let obvious to try still.
 
I really didn't want to post this, but what do people think about Diggins? I know her history pretty well from domestic racing as a junior, to junior worlds, u23's, national championships...She always had the talent, though technique and tactics weren't always there, and now she has strength, confidence and the mindset, but I remember her racing at world juniors and she was waaaay back. Obviously just because a skier is way back as a 17/18 year old, doesn't mean they'll stay back in the senior ranks. Her technique as a junior was awful. She relied on capacity, talent and grit more than anything. She's certainly improved on that over the years. But what about beating the Norwegians, first last year and now at the start of this season? The Norwegians have always operated in 'suspicious' ways for a long time. No doubt there were things going on back in the 90's when and early 2000's when they dominated, and now with the asthma stories, it doesn't seem like much has changed. Well, methods and doctors may have changed, but the need to go above and beyond is certainly still there. What do we think of Diggins? Is it possible that she is operating as a clean athlete these days?
 
Sep 12, 2012
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BullsFan22 said:
maltiv said:
Robert5091 said:
http://www.dn.se/sport/johan-esk-lakaren-tycker-astmasjuka-ska-tavla-i-handikappidrott/
Swedish reasoning for making "sick" athletes take suspensions from sport whilst "recovering".

Also "Calle Halfvarsson was relieved to be diagnosed with asthma" (!)
Seems like the asthma is working out pretty well for him.
Yeah. No stopping him at the moment.
Even works as a placebo:
http://www.vg.no/sport/langrenn/langrenn/trodde-han-inhalerte-astmamedisin-lagkompis-fortalte-ham-at-den-var-tom/a/23863187/
 
Sep 25, 2009
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anyone is free to own their own opinion, but i dont feel we have nearly enough evidence on diggins...her record is noted for a performance directly inverse to long distance. the shorter , the better..a 5k is by any measure not a distance race. though technically it is not a sprint either.

the norge 'approach', particularly at the start of a season, and following the 2 damaging fiascos with sundby and johaug, may have been to quell the international discontent by holding back a bit. the fallas and the fellas (pun intended) may have been off the semi-legal cures spared for the worlds this year.

the diggins spurious performance consistent with her record would not arouse me yet.

as to calle's tue, why would you folks get mad when all he's doing is ' taking care of his health' the way his vikings bros had taught him ;)
 
First finish a Ventolin discus ahead of schedule, maybe with some nebulizer sessions thrown in the mix.
Nice ploy to call it stronger as a placebo. Very omerta style.
Call me sceptical, but I don't believe it. The guy either takes LOADS of it to get the doping traits, or he simply can't produce symptoms without his personal physician around, behind closed doors.
 
Nov 15, 2015
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olhell said:
BullsFan22 said:
maltiv said:
Robert5091 said:
http://www.dn.se/sport/johan-esk-lakaren-tycker-astmasjuka-ska-tavla-i-handikappidrott/
Swedish reasoning for making "sick" athletes take suspensions from sport whilst "recovering".

Also "Calle Halfvarsson was relieved to be diagnosed with asthma" (!)
Seems like the asthma is working out pretty well for him.
Yeah. No stopping him at the moment.
Even works as a placebo:
http://www.vg.no/sport/langrenn/langrenn/trodde-han-inhalerte-astmamedisin-lagkompis-fortalte-ham-at-den-var-tom/a/23863187/
An actual asthmatic would presumably notice if he ran out of meds.
 
Re: Re:

John de Savage said:
olhell said:
BullsFan22 said:
maltiv said:
Robert5091 said:
http://www.dn.se/sport/johan-esk-lakaren-tycker-astmasjuka-ska-tavla-i-handikappidrott/
Swedish reasoning for making "sick" athletes take suspensions from sport whilst "recovering".

Also "Calle Halfvarsson was relieved to be diagnosed with asthma" (!)
Seems like the asthma is working out pretty well for him.
Yeah. No stopping him at the moment.
Even works as a placebo:
http://www.vg.no/sport/langrenn/langrenn/trodde-han-inhalerte-astmamedisin-lagkompis-fortalte-ham-at-den-var-tom/a/23863187/
An actual asthmatic would presumably notice if he ran out of meds.
Which he probably noticed today, or?
 
Apr 22, 2012
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Cloxxki said:
If stupidity can in anyway be use as leverage to get a lower ban
I agree with a point, but to be fair, you are confusing stupidity or simple mistake or ignorance at best; and that still is not same caliber as stupidity.
 
Apr 22, 2012
3,570
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Re: Re:

olhell said:
BullsFan22 said:
maltiv said:
Robert5091 said:
http://www.dn.se/sport/johan-esk-lakaren-tycker-astmasjuka-ska-tavla-i-handikappidrott/
Swedish reasoning for making "sick" athletes take suspensions from sport whilst "recovering".

Also "Calle Halfvarsson was relieved to be diagnosed with asthma" (!)
Seems like the asthma is working out pretty well for him.
Yeah. No stopping him at the moment.
Even works as a placebo:
http://www.vg.no/sport/langrenn/langrenn/trodde-han-inhalerte-astmamedisin-lagkompis-fortalte-ham-at-den-var-tom/a/23863187/
Almost everything works as placebo.
 
Funny how nobody questions Kowalczyk who is obviously bigger and heavier than Bjørgen:p I sometimes wonder if any of you ever did xc on a competitive level or at all. Comparing it to cycling like you do is just ridiculous. Cycling is continous effort over hours. Skiing is maximum effort 30sec-3min, rest, and then 70-80% on the flats before you put on another max effort again. You seemingly know nothing of what it takes to do well in skiing. If you think 10-15kg makes it impossible to follow on the short hills in WC skiing, you dont understand physiology.
Theres only one hill in the entire WC where this cycling analogy comes into effect, finishing alpine in TdS, and the results there are as expected, Johaug beats even most of the guy's. Also, if you think Johaug or any of the top contenders suffer from "bad technique", you are delusional, they just choose what suites them. Kowalczyk in skate is perhaps an exception to that, and the swedes are perhaps a bit better overall than the rest, but they are all extremely good.
I know that this forum is essentially a race to the bottom in who can be the most cynical, I also agree its warranted at times, but you have to try to at least know some basics about what you are talking about before saying something is impossible, or clear indication of doping.
 
Kowalckzyk is not getting a by here at all. Here musculature has been noted, and her lack of form last year has been attributed to being clean-ish.
Look at the 30km of Sochi. How well Bjoergen stayed with the Duracell bunny. To me, that's not cool. The oxygen has to come from somewhere. Those were 3 minute climbs, and no sign of weakness at the summit.
So much extra muscle mass for a little bit of outright speed, but no ill effect of the added weight on an uphill? Even up Alpe Cermis she loses to very few lanky skinny girls.
 
Apr 22, 2012
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Oude Geuze said:
Funny how nobody questions Kowalczyk who is obviously bigger and heavier than Bjørgen:p
Kowalczyk was questioned here times and times again. No way Kowalczyk is bigger than Bjoergen, too. Kowalczyk is not even nearly so muscular as Marit is. She is just taller.
Comparing it to cycling like you do is just ridiculous.
Comparing it is ok; nobody says it's exactly the same.
If you think 10-15kg makes it impossible to follow on the short hills in WC skiing, you dont understand physiology.
No one is saying that more muscular athletes and/or athletes with heavier built are not able to follow on short hills. Hard to even say who your reaction belongs to. Problem with Marit as I see it is this: she is of the charts. She posses musculature of female bodybuilder. She has bigger muscles than male athletes. To me xc skiing still more or less is and endurance sport, but she can win 30 km race.

Nothing more is needed to be told, but since you've begun with it...
Skiing is maximum effort 30sec-3min, rest, and then 70-80% on the flats before you put on another max effort again.
There were people in this thread elaborating on cycling vs. xc skiing effort in far greater detail than you. I think are oversimplyficating it a lot. First and foremost in cycling you have varying kinds of efforts - you have completely flat prologues, you have MTT's, you have pan flat stages where most of the stage is often not in the very high pace and so on. Even in one stage/one day race intensity changes too.
 

Just a few words about Marit Bjørgen and the asthma treatment which she has been on for almost a decade.

Before all hell broke loose with asthma treatment in sports you had to have a TUE. Marit had a TUE on Symbicourt, a drug with the active substances Budesonid and Formoterol. Most of the following is based on a text posted by the signature ebbeholmer on a Swedish forum a few days ago. We have heard a numerous times that the medication she is using is not performance enhancing.http://www.svt.se/sport/artikel/analys-av-bjorgens-astmamedicin-karlsson-inte-prestationshojande/ In this article the journalist expresses relief that her medication wasn’t Clenbuterol as the rumors told but Symbicourt which the medics says is a “clean” substance.

So what about the Beta2 agonist Formoterol then? Well, according to several sources it is very potent, even superseding Clen. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17134898
The findings indicate that formoterol has considerably more powerful anabolic effects on skeletal muscle than older generation beta(2)-agonists [like clenbuterol and albuterol]
And this study shows that the effect on women are multiple times stronger than on men with Formoterol. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25650070
Fifteen healthy adults (8 men).
MEASUREMENTS:
Volunteers were treated with oral formoterol 160 μg/day for one week.
"Formoterol induced an absolute anabolic effect that was greater in women (30 vs 8%). Heart rate, systolic and diastolic blood pressures were unaffected.
CONCLUSION:
In a therapeutic dose, formoterol stimulates protein anabolism in humans. It induced gender-dimorphic effects on protein turnover and on the partitioning of amino acids from oxidative loss toward protein synthesis, effects that are greater in women than in men."
From a body-builder forum http://www.musclechemistry.com/upload/archive/index.php/t-74086.html:
-Vascularity is coming out quite nicely, and I am noticing a little toning already and veins coming out massively.
-Especially during curls, pumps are amazing.
This study shows that the ideal effect is as low as 160 microgram daily to avoid side-effects but still reach optimal gain https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/06/110606092742.htm:
Research in animals has shown that formoterol can stimulate the growth of muscle and the burning of fat. This is the first study demonstrating the beneficial metabolic effects of formoterol in humans," said the study's lead author Paul Lee, MD, PhD, a research fellow at the Garvan Institute of Medical Research in Sydney.
The discovery is important, Lee said, because "it suggests that formoterol may be used in the future to prevent obesity and muscle loss in humans."
He said they found that the 160-microgram dose had metabolic benefits without raising heart rate.
The rate of fat oxidation, or burning, rose by almost 25 percent, indicating there may be a loss of fat in the long term, Lee reported.
And then finally back to the real experts, body-builders https://area1255.blogspot.se/2015/11/formoterol-strongest-beta-agonist.html:

Friday, November 13, 2015
Formoterol - The Strongest Beta-Agonist Available that does much more than Clen
Formoterol (brand name Foradil, among others) is the strongest medically accessible beta-adrenergic agonist - it is used in medicine for Asthma. As opposed to Albuterol which is an Emergency only inhaler (generally) formoterol is used daily to treat Asthma. It's duration of action is much longer (about 9-12 hours).

The benefit to bodybuilders, athletes and even 'fitness enthusiasts' is that Formoterol treatments downregulates the myostatin system; which allows for a surge of muscle growth(also see here). Myostatin inhibitors are in deep investigation (!) for muscle wasting disorders but even in normal animals and humans; myostatin inhibition causes dramatic, almost unprecedented muscle growth.

Clenbuterol does not offer this effect.

Thus, Formoterol is far superior to Clen and does not just 'burn fat' - rather, it has profound anabolic effects that may surpass a ***-load of other commonly used pharmaceuticals and supplements..it may even parallel steroids and is synergistic with all forms of testosterone.

FORMOTEROL comes prescribed in capsules which are loaded into an inhaler, while emptying the powder into a drink or holding it under tongue does not prove efficacious for asthma - it is the recommended mechanism of absorption for workout purposes....
But clearly those studies are unknown to Olympiatoppen, the NSF and their medical team and Marit Bjørgen herself. It is truly not fun anymore with FIS elite XC-skiing.
 
I dont think Kowa is getting free a pass around here. But her best/worst exploits are from the past, and have been discussed in the thread. If she storms to a ridiculous victory in, say, Lahti, then surely she will be called out.

The flipside of Oude Geuze's argument about technique would be that virtually no competitive edge can be gained via technique training, because all of the athletes self-adapt to what is an optimum for them anyway. I dont think this is very credible and you probably did not mean this, did you?
 
Sep 25, 2009
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i will root for the kowa chick every time over any norge chick (well, perhaps, except the heidi weng chick :) ), but to say she was getting a pass here is ignorant and lazy.

yes, kowa's skating has practically not improved in over a decade. she's hardly alone among the elite athletes...
it'd be interesting if she with her coaches ever estimated how much efficiency she is loosing due to her poor technique. btw, jusyna has a phd in applied physiology (physical education) and i would assume is quite capable to approach the improvement analytically. while she is bearable to watch at a skating start, she literally breaks down - like last weekend in lillehammer during an individual 5K - at the finish.

what can be more suspicious than with such a sub-par technique she won a gold in the turin 30 k freestyle :Question: :idea:

there is nothing to add about the freakish marit. i was relieved she could have a baby :)
 
Re:

Cloxxki said:
Kowalckzyk is not getting a by here at all. Here musculature has been noted, and her lack of form last year has been attributed to being clean-ish.
Look at the 30km of Sochi. How well Bjoergen stayed with the Duracell bunny. To me, that's not cool. The oxygen has to come from somewhere. Those were 3 minute climbs, and no sign of weakness at the summit.
So much extra muscle mass for a little bit of outright speed, but no ill effect of the added weight on an uphill? Even up Alpe Cermis she loses to very few lanky skinny girls.
This is exactly the kind of fallacious analysis I'm talking about. 3 minute climb is not a threshold climb, its an anaerobic lactate fest of Vo2 max power.
Consider Bjørgen and Johaug on a 30k, 5K circuit with 4 hills, a 3minute one, and 3 1minute climbs. They will spend perhaps 13 minutes per lap on a 30k. During the ascent Bjørgen will need to expend more watts than Johaug, but she's a larger woman, more muscular with a bigger stride which translates to more speed at a typical WC anearobic climb. This means Johaug must go uphill at about 100% capacity just to stay in touch. Going over the crest, Bjørgen amassed a lot more oxygen debt than Johaug, but she has a greater kreatin kinase capacity, greater buffer capacity, bigger liver for the cory cycle (recycle lactate), larger glycogen storage etc and perhaps she didn't need to go 100%, but rather 95%. Yeah, sure she couldn't sustain that for 10minutes, and Johaug would beat her, but there are no hills that long except for TdS, where it does happen, every year.
So we get to the downhill, Bjørgen is faster. On the flats, Bjørgen is faster. Johaug has to compensate with frequency and greater %threshold power to stay in contention during at least 50% of the course. Remeber, there is almost no drafting, its not like cycling, where I could finish in the pack the entire first week of the TdF. The flats kill you, they go 22+kph, just try that, its like running. I was passed by a semi pro field once, and I could'nt hang on for more than 30seconds, it was a 45k race. Now you will perhaps better understand why Calle Halvarsson, Petter Northug, Justyna Kowalczyk etc can in fact compete on a long "hilly" course. It's like RvF, only 1/10th the lenght, which last year was won by Alexander Kristoff...
Yes, its entirely possible that Marit is doping, you can never rule that out. Perhaps though, shes a belgian blue, myostatin freak. Or she has some anabolic receptor sensitivity of gods:p She was allways muscly, with big legs and powerful upper body, its not a recent thing.
And give me a break on the Beta2 agonists, they have at best a mild anabolic influence, mainly on smooth muscle cells, but damn its uncomfortble to take high doses, trembling, palpitations, and also muscle weakness and wasting at hig doses. But with symbicort, she's also getting cortison, anti inflammatory agent, known for its catabolic effects and skeletal muscle wasting, central fat deposition and Na retention. But the doses are too low to give significant systemic effect from inhalation. This last paragraph though, I admit I'm not fully up on the latest, especially on the sport-phys side. Just citing stuff from my education about 3 yrs ago. I'll look into it though, and come back with some review articles.
 
Re:

python said:
i will root for the kowa chick every time over any norge chick (well, perhaps, except the heidi weng chick :) ), but to say she was getting a pass here is ignorant and lazy.

yes, kowa's skating has practically not improved in over a decade. she's hardly alone among the elite athletes...
it'd be interesting if she with her coaches ever estimated how much efficiency she is loosing due to her poor technique. btw, jusyna has a phd in applied physiology (physical education) and i would assume is quite capable to approach the improvement analytically. while she is bearable to watch at a skating start, she literally breaks down - like last weekend in lillehammer during an individual 5K - at the finish.

what can be more suspicious than with such a sub-par technique she won a gold in the turin 30 k freestyle :Question: :idea:

there is nothing to add about the freakish marit. i was relieved she could have a baby :)
Why do you write "norge" in singular, non specific with a lower case "n" in such a passive agressive way in all your posts? You would never write "i will root for the kowa chick every time over any england chick" Thats how hateful and bitter people talk, and I know most of you are deep in the cynical echo-chamber of resentment down here but damn, who beat you so bad wearing red suite? Just a modicum of civility and respect for nations and their athletes would be nice.
 

Irondan

Administrator
Moderator
Re: Re:

Oude Geuze said:
python said:
i will root for the kowa chick every time over any norge chick (well, perhaps, except the heidi weng chick :) ), but to say she was getting a pass here is ignorant and lazy.

yes, kowa's skating has practically not improved in over a decade. she's hardly alone among the elite athletes...
it'd be interesting if she with her coaches ever estimated how much efficiency she is loosing due to her poor technique. btw, jusyna has a phd in applied physiology (physical education) and i would assume is quite capable to approach the improvement analytically. while she is bearable to watch at a skating start, she literally breaks down - like last weekend in lillehammer during an individual 5K - at the finish.

what can be more suspicious than with such a sub-par technique she won a gold in the turin 30 k freestyle :Question: :idea:

there is nothing to add about the freakish marit. i was relieved she could have a baby :)
Why do you write "norge" in singular, non specific with a lower case "n" in such a passive agressive way in all your posts? You would never write "i will root for the kowa chick every time over any england chick" Thats how hateful and bitter people talk, and I know most of you are deep in the cynical echo-chamber of resentment down here but damn, who beat you so bad wearing red suite? Just a modicum of civility and respect for nations and their athletes would be nice.
Please use the "Report" function to bring mods attention to any offensive language or comments.

Taking moderation efforts upon yourself and insulting the other members that have posted in this thread is strictly prohibited.

Cheers
 
Re: Re:

Oude Geuze said:
Thats how hateful and bitter people talk, and I know most of you are deep in the cynical echo-chamber of resentment down here but damn, who beat you so bad wearing red suite? Just a modicum of civility and respect for nations and their athletes would be nice.
Why not a modicum of civility and respect for your fellow posters? You're truly entering this forum like a Rhino with ADHD. Arrogance seems indeed to be a widespread affliction in Norway.
 
The length taken to ascend the climb of course also is only one measure of the climb. Johaug's physical advantage is at its greatest on the steeper ascents, staying with her on, say, Mördarbacken is to me more of a red flag than on the drag into the stadium in Sochi, which, though long, was not especially steep until near the end, which is why in the skiathlon Johaug rather lost out and it was instead Kalla, less built for climbing but with the best V-1 of the quintet (Bjørgen, Johaug, Weng, Saarinen and Kalla) that was stringing them out.

As for Northug competing in hilly 50ks, sometimes that's because he's just that good, and sometimes it's because there have been some very frustrating races to watch tactically, with people either afraid to chance their arm à la Olsson until late on, or chase down any move rather than make the likes of Petter contribute to the pacing. Northug is great at skiing his own race and letting the event come to him, and some days he is absolutely on it and nothing will drop him anyway, and other days the opposition just hands the race to him on a silver platter.
 
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