Doping in XC skiing

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Kokoso said:
Robert5091 said:
http://www.svt.se/sport/vintersport/ustiugov-slog-till-mig-med-staven/
New form of biathlon? skiing and fencing? "en garde!" :lol:

If you think Sundby is full of asthma medicine then it makes you wonder what illness Ustiugov might have. We'll just have to wait and see.
Looks like Sundby isn't full of asthma medicine anymore. Certainly you've noticed the change, don't you?
Sundby has always had 2-3 bad days per season (or let's say worse than normal), so yesterday was nothing special or different. He even usually has one of those days during TDS.

The only change compared to last years is Ustiugov's performance.
 
Apr 22, 2012
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bambino said:
Kokoso said:
Robert5091 said:
http://www.svt.se/sport/vintersport/ustiugov-slog-till-mig-med-staven/
New form of biathlon? skiing and fencing? "en garde!" :lol:

If you think Sundby is full of asthma medicine then it makes you wonder what illness Ustiugov might have. We'll just have to wait and see.
Looks like Sundby isn't full of asthma medicine anymore. Certainly you've noticed the change, don't you?
Sundby has always had 2-3 bad days per season (or let's say worse than normal), so yesterday was nothing special or different. He even usually has one of those days during TDS.

The only change compared to last years is Ustiugov's performance.
It's a result of both - Usťugov certainly improved, but Sundby's overall level is noticeably lower, too. No doubt about that.
 
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that sundby this season lost his superiority we saw for 3 seasons is obvious and inarguable.

still very strong. certainly, the strongest skier of a strongest skiing nation, but we no longer witness his off-the-front-drop-every-one performances. anyone arguing the fact, btw documented in dozens of real-time videos and a heap of the official race results, probably did not follow the sport closely. that sundby had an occasional off-day (but generally fewer than his competition) still totally dominating the entire world cup does not change what we see THIS season.

thus a small drop in his performance is visible and measurable. we certainly can speculate as to why it happened. either smaller dozes of several classes of strong drugs he himself told us about or his training is different ? take your guess. my hunch is based on the common sense - after being caught doping and let off the hook only a complete idiot would not reduce his dozes. martin is not an idiot...

and what about ustiogov performance ? he also improved. but those wow-ing with the sensational headlines are confusing wood with the forest. what's needed to evaluate his improvement is - again - is to look at the objective evidence. that is, at the real-time videos and the race results. what we can easily verify is that:
1) at no time he broke away from the peloton never to be seen like sundby was doing. And,
2) that virtually all his wins were the result of his trade mark natural strength - a powerful finish acceleration.


behind the wow-ing and the sensational headlines of the ustiougovs wins virtually no one explored a very easily verifiable fact...that of his current 42 seconds lead over sundby, he was faster....by how much do you think ?...
only 15 seconds in 4 tough races. the rest was bonification.

these objective facts form my opinion on his 'doping superiority'. but i do accept that people may have a different opinion. just DONT expect me wasting time on trying to refute emotions. unless, of course they are based on new tangible evidence and more than a nation bashing.
 
Ustiugov has more natural talent than Sundby. It showed in the juniors, it showed at the U23 level and it's showing at the seniors. He's had a natural, understandable progression. So far he hasn't had a season where his level dropped completely and he magically reappeared. He's 24, so maybe we will see that in the future, but right now, as far as his progression is concerned, there is nothing unusual. I completely agree with you, Python, about this particular TDS. He isn't blowing away everyone, he is simply skiing to his strengths-his sprinting/acceleration ability and being smart with his energy output. One of his biggest strengths is the skate sprint. He won that handily and picking up 60 bonus seconds on top of a 4+ second qualifier win and a comfortable win in the finals....he already gained an advantage there. After that it was two races that came down to the last few hundred meters, again, the bonus seconds for the wins is what is edging him forward. He didn't go for all of the bonus sprints in the skiathlon and he skied smart in the handicap pursuit. Sundby was slowly gaining on him, cutting the lead to 16 seconds, but a combination of Sundby starting to feel it and Ustiugov not giving in is what increased the lead. Again, 15 bonus seconds to Sundby's 10. Take away the sprint and the bonus seconds and the lead is what? Less than 15 or even 10 seconds? The tour format, despite only having one sprint, is also helping him. Lot's of skate legs, no Toblach 35 km pursuit (he surely would have been caught by Sundby in that one), and since it's a championship season, a stage or two less than last year. That is all playing into his favor. Is Sundby a little bit weaker than in the past at the tour? I think so. I also think that had there been another sprint, Ustiugov would be well over a minute ahead now, which would have raised even more eyebrows.
 
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python said:
that sundby this season lost his superiority we saw for 3 seasons is obvious and inarguable.

still very strong. certainly, the strongest skier of a strongest skiing nation, but we no longer witness his off-the-front-drop-every-one performances. anyone arguing the fact, btw documented in dozens of real-time videos and a heap of the official race results, probably did not follow the sport closely. that sundby had an occasional off-day (but generally fewer than his competition) still totally dominating the entire world cup does not change what we see THIS season.

thus a small drop in his performance is visible and measurable. we certainly can speculate as to why it happened. either smaller dozes of several classes of strong drugs he himself told us about or his training is different ? take your guess. my hunch is based on the common sense - after being caught doping and let off the hook only a complete idiot would not reduce his dozes. martin is not an idiot...

and what about ustiogov performance ? he also improved. but those wow-ing with the sensational headlines are confusing wood with the forest. what's needed to evaluate his improvement is - again - is to look at the objective evidence. that is, at the real-time videos and the race results. what we can easily verify is that:
1) at no time he broke away from the peloton never to be seen like sundby was doing. And,
2) that virtually all his wins were the result of his trade mark natural strength - a powerful finish acceleration.


behind the wow-ing and the sensational headlines of the ustiougovs wins virtually no one explored a very easily verifiable fact...that of his current 42 seconds lead over sundby, he was faster....by how much do you think ?...
only 15 seconds in 4 tough races. the rest was bonification.

these objective facts form my opinion on his 'doping superiority'. but i do accept that people may have a different opinion. just DONT expect me wasting time on trying to refute emotions. unless, of course they are based on new tangible evidence and more than a nation bashing.
I agree to disagree. Still my opinion is that the only difference is Ustiugov. Take him away and look Martin's performance against the rest of the bunch and you'll see the light.

He might've not skiin away from the rest like in one(!) leg last year, but did that already once this year in Lillehammer mass start. And make no mistakes, the top guys in the bunch (like Heikkinen, Helner, Cologna) are in completely different form than last year at the same time. Still they don't have any weapons against Sundby (or Ustiugov) as complete skiers, although sprint and bonuses out Heikkinen is the best at the moment.

Martin is about the same level as last year if not better, the competition is just better. Heikkinen himself has said he is >minute faster in 15km as last year same time.
 
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Here's one for today from Dagbladet: http://www.dagbladet.no/sport/norsk-svensk-medisinkrangel-refser-sverige---de-er-smalige-jeg-skjonner-ikke-hvorfor/66595417

"Norwegian-Swedish medicine quarrel - rebukes Sweden: They're petty, I don't know why"

The article goes on to describe different perceptions of the Norwegian (continuing) use of nebulizers in cross country. Team coach Løfshus say's it's widespread in XC and it's going to continue (because it's the Norwegian team coach that decides policy for the whole of XC, see?) whereas in Norway the discussion is more 'nuanced', i.e. there's more acceptance for it. Matthias Fredriksson (XC, Sweden) says that the Norwegians should at least stop using nebulizers while the investigation into Norwegian medication in XC is ongoing. Swedish skiers have asthma, he says, but they don't take their medicine via a nebulizer.

The Dear Leader Løfshus says he is nonetheless 'satisifed' with the way the discussion has gone in Norway. Asthma medicine is all part of health and safety for skiers.

It's nice that the national team thinks about their athletes health so much, it's puzzling why they didn't make all this public years ago. A TV camera in between sprint heats in the top floor of the waxing truck perhaps?
 
Re:

Blaaswix said:
Here's one for today from Dagbladet: http://www.dagbladet.no/sport/norsk-svensk-medisinkrangel-refser-sverige---de-er-smalige-jeg-skjonner-ikke-hvorfor/66595417

"Norwegian-Swedish medicine quarrel - rebukes Sweden: They're petty, I don't know why"

The article goes on to describe different perceptions of the Norwegian (continuing) use of nebulizers in cross country. Team coach Løfshus say's it's widespread in XC and it's going to continue (because it's the Norwegian team coach that decides policy for the whole of XC, see?) whereas in Norway the discussion is more 'nuanced', i.e. there's more acceptance for it. Matthias Fredriksson (XC, Sweden) says that the Norwegians should at least stop using nebulizers while the investigation into Norwegian medication in XC is ongoing. Swedish skiers have asthma, he says, but they don't take their medicine via a nebulizer.

The Dear Leader Løfshus says he is nonetheless 'satisifed' with the way the discussion has gone in Norway. Asthma medicine is all part of health and safety for skiers.

It's nice that the national team thinks about their athletes health so much, it's puzzling why they didn't make all this public years ago. A TV camera in between sprint heats in the top floor of the waxing truck perhaps?
I've read the article you quoted and I am stunned. According to Løfshus the problem is Sweden. They don't want to understand the way Norway are medically treating their skiers. The Swedes are captious and fault-finding.
Løfshus doesn't seem to be bothered that the medical expert of WADA after the Sundby case stated that the use of Nebulizers is forbidden, totally forbidden. So, business as usual for the Norwegians. But I guess they are a little bit more cautious with the doses after Johnsrud Sundbys doping conviction. Yesterday the English commentators on Eurosport speculated in reduced asthma medication among the Norwegians as an explantion on more moderate results this year.

And so today Bendiksen came forward and explained how he could recommend Johaug an anabolic ointment.
http://www.vg.no/sport/johaug-tatt-i-doping/slik-har-lege-bendiksen-forklart-seg-om-hvorfor-han-sviktet-johaug/a/23891730/
His excuses are:
1. Domestical problems with sick relatives.
2. Another injured skier, Hans Christer Holund, who fell in Stelvio and had to visit the hospital
3. A scheduled press-conference the 5th of september (after Johaug had started the anabolic lip treatment) about asthma medication after Johnsrud Sundby case.

So, I guess Johaug have a pretty strong case to sue Bendiksen and the Norwegian Ski Federation on millions. If she doesn't go forward with a legal case it will appear very suspicoius.
 
Nov 15, 2015
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Blaaswix said:
Here's one for today from Dagbladet: http://www.dagbladet.no/sport/norsk-svensk-medisinkrangel-refser-sverige---de-er-smalige-jeg-skjonner-ikke-hvorfor/66595417

"Norwegian-Swedish medicine quarrel - rebukes Sweden: They're petty, I don't know why"

The article goes on to describe different perceptions of the Norwegian (continuing) use of nebulizers in cross country. Team coach Løfshus say's it's widespread in XC and it's going to continue (because it's the Norwegian team coach that decides policy for the whole of XC, see?) whereas in Norway the discussion is more 'nuanced', i.e. there's more acceptance for it. Matthias Fredriksson (XC, Sweden) says that the Norwegians should at least stop using nebulizers while the investigation into Norwegian medication in XC is ongoing. Swedish skiers have asthma, he says, but they don't take their medicine via a nebulizer.

The Dear Leader Løfshus says he is nonetheless 'satisifed' with the way the discussion has gone in Norway. Asthma medicine is all part of health and safety for skiers.

It's nice that the national team thinks about their athletes health so much, it's puzzling why they didn't make all this public years ago. A TV camera in between sprint heats in the top floor of the waxing truck perhaps?
They claim to have stopped nebulizing salbutamol and other beta agonists.
 
Jan 3, 2016
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Re: Re:

John de Savage said:
Blaaswix said:
Here's one for today from Dagbladet: http://www.dagbladet.no/sport/norsk-svensk-medisinkrangel-refser-sverige---de-er-smalige-jeg-skjonner-ikke-hvorfor/66595417

"Norwegian-Swedish medicine quarrel - rebukes Sweden: They're petty, I don't know why"

The article goes on to describe different perceptions of the Norwegian (continuing) use of nebulizers in cross country. Team coach Løfshus say's it's widespread in XC and it's going to continue (because it's the Norwegian team coach that decides policy for the whole of XC, see?) whereas in Norway the discussion is more 'nuanced', i.e. there's more acceptance for it. Matthias Fredriksson (XC, Sweden) says that the Norwegians should at least stop using nebulizers while the investigation into Norwegian medication in XC is ongoing. Swedish skiers have asthma, he says, but they don't take their medicine via a nebulizer.

The Dear Leader Løfshus says he is nonetheless 'satisifed' with the way the discussion has gone in Norway. Asthma medicine is all part of health and safety for skiers.

It's nice that the national team thinks about their athletes health so much, it's puzzling why they didn't make all this public years ago. A TV camera in between sprint heats in the top floor of the waxing truck perhaps?
They claim to have stopped nebulizing salbutamol and other beta agonists.
Looking at this link, http://www.vg.no/sport/langrenn/norge-dopinghaanet-under-tour-de-ski/a/23891894/ it seems that some spectators have a view of what the consequences of that might be :p
 
Jan 3, 2016
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For those that haven't seen it, some fans held up a banner, on TV as the field went past, reading 'less Ventolin = less champions WADA wake up!"

Dagbladet is mightily offended, saying Norway has been 'taunted'. But the banner doesn't mention Norway. Why do they think they were referring to Norway? Eh? :lol:
 
Jan 3, 2016
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John de Savage said:
Kowalczyk used a prohibited substance that requires a TUE (and is well known to be performance enhancing) without applying for a TUE and received a short suspension back in 2005.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Justyna_Kowalczyk#The_suspension_in_2005

It's a bit sanctimonious for her to criticise opponents who use medications that do not even require a TUE.
It's not sanctimonious at all. She took a medicine that is banned in competition but not out of competition, for a diagnosed injury, and she was suspended for it. I don't recall her national team manager going on a massive publicity offensive, replete with sulky press conferences and ringing around journalists to make sure there is a 'nuanced debate'.

Norway had/has a team bus with a second floor with equipment not normally seen outside an ER for the administration of asthma medicine in competition, also for athletes without an asthma diagnosis. And there is now a relentless effort to portray this as a normal, and even desirable, part of endurance sports medicine. See the difference?
 
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John de Savage said:
Kowalczyk used a prohibited substance that requires a TUE (and is well known to be performance enhancing) without applying for a TUE and received a short suspension back in 2005.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Justyna_Kowalczyk#The_suspension_in_2005

It's a bit sanctimonious for her to criticise opponents who use medications that do not even require a TUE.
I can't even believe I'm seeing after all the hypocrism Norwegians has been exercising for about.... well 30 years.
 
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John de Savage said:
Kowalczyk used a prohibited substance that requires a TUE (and is well known to be performance enhancing) without applying for a TUE and received a short suspension back in 2005.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Justyna_Kowalczyk#The_suspension_in_2005

It's a bit sanctimonious for her to criticise opponents who use medications that do not even require a TUE.

Yes, she tested positive and was suspended. That was taken for an achilles injury. She was given a chance to appeal (like virtually every athlete that has a positive test) and she won the appeal and her suspension was shortened. She appealed to CAS and CAS overturned FIS's decision, as they (CAS) understood that it wasn't used as a PED, but for an injury. However, they did say it was negligent. Either way, her suspension was longer than Sundby's. Like one or two have mentioned, the fact that she was able to win the appeal shows validity to what she was using the substance, particularly as she was an unknown skier at the time (had good junior results, but she was only 21 at the time so nothing to speak of at world cups), from Poland and with no army (like the NSF) to back her.

What the Norwegians have been doing is systematically using the asthma medicine to increase the performances of their athletes. I get it on using such medicine with a valid TUE and using it only to what it's prescribed, but when non-asthmatics use it and use it on a regular basis and it obviously increases their performances (otherwise why would they use it) then that's, by all intents and purposes, blatant doping. Kowalczyk has been on about this for 6 or 7 years. She saw how much Bjoergen improved during the 2009/2010 season. Since the Torino Olympics, up to the start of the 2009/2010 season, Bjoergen was struggling to even make it into the top 10 in some races. I don't know how many races she actually won during those 3 1/2 years, but it wasn't many. The Norwegians were saying that her improvement was due to better coping with pressure, psychology, dealing with media, better training...but perhaps it was something else. The drug that Bjoergen was using, symbicort, was actually on the banned substance list, but she obviously had a TUE. The drug was later taken off the banned list. I think her criticism of the Norwegians using asthma meds and her wondering how so many top athletes have asthma issues in such an environment is more than understandable. In fact, more athletes need(ed) to speak out about this. Why are so many athletes having such breathing issues? Why are those that don't even have issues, taking these substances? What the fancy bears and the subsequent articles have revealed, is that it seems to be easy to apply and be granted a TUE for not just asthma meds, but a whole host of other potential PED's.

At the absolute least, Kowalczyk has been very consistent throughout the years of being critical about asthma med use. The fact that almost 70% of all Norwegian XC Olympic medals from 1992 on, have been won by skiers with asthma is worrisome.
 
Nov 15, 2015
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The hypocrisy lies in calling for a complete ban on asthma meds while she herself has used performance enhancing drugs.
The fact that she had a medical reason to do so is not a mitigating circumstance in the context of her routinely criticising sick athletes who benefit from prescription medications. She talks the talk but she didn't walk the walk.
 
Re:

John de Savage said:
The hypocrisy lies in calling for a complete ban on asthma meds while she herself has used performance enhancing drugs.
The fact that she had a medical reason to do so is not a mitigating circumstance in the context of her routinely criticising sick athletes who benefit from prescription medications. She talks the talk but she didn't walk the walk.

Her criticism of widespread asthma med use in the Norwegian team has been prophetic. I suppose she would have been better not competing and waiting for the injury to heal, but she probably would have had to take something to help her. The fact is, athletes registered under their Olympic committees in Olympic sanctioned sports are tested out of competition and the drug was, as mentioned above, not banned when used out of competition. And she obviously had an injury issue. She probably had to use some very strong painkillers after the foot injury during 2014 Olympic season. I am guessing she used a TUE for what she used. As I said, her criticism stretches to the use of these meds on athletes that clearly don't need them.
 
Nov 15, 2015
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Re: Re:

BullsFan22 said:
John de Savage said:
The hypocrisy lies in calling for a complete ban on asthma meds while she herself has used performance enhancing drugs.
The fact that she had a medical reason to do so is not a mitigating circumstance in the context of her routinely criticising sick athletes who benefit from prescription medications. She talks the talk but she didn't walk the walk.

Her criticism of widespread asthma med use in the Norwegian team has been prophetic. I suppose she would have been better not competing and waiting for the injury to heal, but she probably would have had to take something to help her. The fact is, athletes registered under their Olympic committees in Olympic sanctioned sports are tested out of competition and the drug was, as mentioned above, not banned when used out of competition. And she obviously had an injury issue. She probably had to use some very strong painkillers after the foot injury during 2014 Olympic season. I am guessing she used a TUE for what she used. As I said, her criticism stretches to the use of these meds on athletes that clearly don't need them.
Yes, she relied on "very strong pain medication" to perform after her unfortunate injury during the 2014 season. I guess it's hard to have principles when an Olympic gold medal is on the line.

Her criticism is not limited to the use of meds on athletes that clearly don't need them. Hence the hypocrisy.

EDIT: I sound like a hater, but tbh I still like Justyna. I always cheered for her in her many battles with Marit and TJ .
 
Re: Re:

John de Savage said:
BullsFan22 said:
John de Savage said:
The hypocrisy lies in calling for a complete ban on asthma meds while she herself has used performance enhancing drugs.
The fact that she had a medical reason to do so is not a mitigating circumstance in the context of her routinely criticising sick athletes who benefit from prescription medications. She talks the talk but she didn't walk the walk.

Her criticism of widespread asthma med use in the Norwegian team has been prophetic. I suppose she would have been better not competing and waiting for the injury to heal, but she probably would have had to take something to help her. The fact is, athletes registered under their Olympic committees in Olympic sanctioned sports are tested out of competition and the drug was, as mentioned above, not banned when used out of competition. And she obviously had an injury issue. She probably had to use some very strong painkillers after the foot injury during 2014 Olympic season. I am guessing she used a TUE for what she used. As I said, her criticism stretches to the use of these meds on athletes that clearly don't need them.
Yes, she relied on "very strong pain medication" to perform after her unfortunate injury during the 2014 season. I guess it's hard to have principles when an Olympic gold medal is on the line.

Her criticism is not limited to the use of meds on athletes that clearly don't need them. Hence the hypocrisy.

EDIT: I sound like a hater, but tbh I still like Justyna. I always cheered for her in her many battles with Marit and TJ .
So Justyna should keep her mouth shut because she has her own sceleton in the closet while Norwegians in general can remind regularly (with big letters) the current situation and history of Russia, Finland etc. (Like they've done in past couple of weeks). You don't see anything wrong with that vs. your opinion of Justyna commenting?
 
Apr 22, 2012
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Re:

John de Savage said:
The hypocrisy lies in calling for a complete ban on asthma meds while she herself has used performance enhancing drugs.
The fact that she had a medical reason to do so is not a mitigating circumstance in the context of her routinely criticising sick athletes who benefit from prescription medications. She talks the talk but she didn't walk the walk.
People DO wrong things, Kowalczyk, you, me...everybody. That doesn't mean they can't get better and that they don't have a right to criticize. Kowalczyk had her punishment and that's it.

Norwegian hypocrisy at it's best. Hollier than thou. Nice ilustration of Norwegian mentality, no wonder it's happening wha't happening there.
 
I have a hard time understanding that medicating an injury should be equally dubious as continues medication the way it has been put forward by the Norwegian team. In fact, I find their methods much more dangerous for the sport than most other doping cases. Most people do understand that you have crossed all lines when injecting steroids or EPO. Manipulating tests is of course also a no go zone. There is now an ongoing investigation about the medical routines within Norwegian XC-skiing, hopefully much will be clarified then.

What has been clear the last months is that the Norwegian XC-team has a very generous interpretation of what is considered to be okay and ethical. An interpretation that is not shared by the Sweidsh or Finnish teams or by the way WADA medical expertise. The dominating argument is that they are using medication to enabling the skiers to compete on their normal level.

  • If being rough in your respiratory in the middle of a sprint event, then use Nebulizer and asthma medication to open up the airways, regardless if you have a diagnosis for asthma or not.
  • If you do compete in dry and cold climate, like in Toblach last week, then use Nebulizer and asthma medication to treat your respiratory, regardless if you have a diagnosis for asthma or not.
  • If you participate in a junior championship in a country where the air could be polluted, then use Nebulizer and asthma medication to treat your respiratory, regardless if you have a diagnosis for asthma or not.
With a perverted logic, the Norwegian team claims this is not performance enhancing. This logic opens up a lof of other questions, like:

  • If you are an athlete that under a long period of time have struggled with your nutrient uptake and hence can’t build muscles as your team mates, is it then okay to medicate up to “normal” level?
  • If you are an athlete that suffers from unusual low hemoglobin levels and hence cannot compete at the same level as your team mates, is it then okay to medicate up to “normal” level?
The big danger is that young skiers in such an environment learn that medication is okay if the purpose is to enable you to always compete at your best.

After the documentary ”Blodracet” it became painstakingly clear with the testimonies from late prof. Bengt Saltin that even the Norwegian skiers manipulated their blood levels during the 90s. Same persons involved then, now have leading positions in FIS, the Norwegian Ski Federation and different Anti-Doping committees. The XC-community have some hard work in front to restore trust.
 
Apr 22, 2012
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Discgear said:
There is now an ongoing investigation about the medical routines within Norwegian XC-skiing, hopefully much will be clarified then
Not much hope there, given the "independent" comission. And it's about asthma medicine only if I understood well. No other medical problems.
 
Sep 25, 2009
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i know many have answered this question for themselves, but may be...just may be...the norwegians indeed pulled back on many barely legal, semi-legal or those we never learned about illegal meds and methods ? at least in the recent tour de ski ?

i am looking at their results and the number of complaints and the drop-outs...it is inescapable that the crushing superiority was replaced by an occasional podium here or there and that some high profiled favorites like krogh, iversen (and almost toenseth) could not suddenly continue... as if someone refused them the usual magic cure :surprised:

i do accept that any lack of performance is a relative thing and that the strength of the completion must be considered. still, i haven't seen for a long time the norge ladies finishing off the podium so many times or their men (with the exception of sundby) being so benign.

may be they indeed took a med break and what we see is a real competition ?
 
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