Doping, nationalism, culture

[pleyser]

I came across an insightful article over at Velonews (who knew?)...

http://velonews.competitor.com/2012...explores-cultural-phenomenon-of-doping_265230

The article goes way beyond Armstrong in its scope, though the university professor didn't have to go far afield to find appropriate subject matter.

 

[sniper]

excellent stuff. thanks.

“The UCI under McQuaid is no longer tenable,” he said.

In “Testosterone Dreams,” Hoberman details how governing institutions like the UCI are hamstrung by their leaders’ self interest. “Too many of these federations become autocratic fiefdoms where the president’s word is law,” he writes, adding that self preservation and self aggrandizement make institutions like the UCI and IOC naturally resistant to internal reform. “Restoring hope to young athletes who are demoralized by competing against steroid-assisted records has been less important than preserving intact the egos and reputations of sports officials who were accountable to no one but themselves.”

Hoberman is leery of payoff scandals surrounding people like Pat McQuaid and Australian Olympic Committee Chairman John Coates, who the UCI recently picked to recommend members for a commission looking into its own handling of the Armstrong Affair.

 

[coinneach]

Good article.....I also think it explains a lot of the misunderstandings on the Clinic.
I'm British, and the national attitude towards doping in sport no doubt affects my values. We've lived with "failure" at cycling for generations, apart from Olympics over the last 12 years. I simply cannot believe any of the Olympic (cycling) success is doping related, though I did have suspicions about the male athletics sprinters and a female javelin thrower for a while 20-30 years ago.
I cannot for example, believe that a sport drug cheat would be elected in this country (although our PM, like many others, obviously experimented with drugs during adolescence).
If Sky was found to be involved in doping, so much would unravel that it simply is beyond my comprehension. I cannot believe it, though if evidence came out, I'd like to think I was open to re-evaluate. We'd rather a valiant loser than a doped winner every time.
But posters from the USA & Australia seem just not to understand the Brits, and view our nationalist faith as amusing or pitiable. I kinda admire the Aussie in your face way of directness, but have more of a problem with American dominance & what I perceive as arrogance.
I think if we spent a bit more time being honest about our mindsets, we might understand each other better?
I'm going to read the article again!

 

[D-Queued]

Good article.....I also think it explains a lot of the misunderstandings on the Clinic.
I'm British, and the national attitude towards doping in sport no doubt affects my values. We've lived with "failure" at cycling for generations, apart from Olympics over the last 12 years. I simply cannot believe any of the Olympic (cycling) success is doping related, though I did have suspicions about the male athletics sprinters and a female javelin thrower for a while 20-30 years ago.
I cannot for example, believe that a sport drug cheat would be elected in this country (although our PM, like many others, obviously experimented with drugs during adolescence).
If Sky was found to be involved in doping, so much would unravel that it simply is beyond my comprehension. I cannot believe it, though if evidence came out, I'd like to think I was open to re-evaluate. We'd rather a valiant loser than a doped winner every time.
But posters from the USA & Australia seem just not to understand the Brits, and view our nationalist faith as amusing or pitiable. I kinda admire the Aussie in your face way of directness, but have more of a problem with American dominance & what I perceive as arrogance.
I think if we spent a bit more time being honest about our mindsets, we might understand each other better?
I'm going to read the article again!

You'd best start reconsidering your 'stiff upper lip'.

You had some doubts about who, Linford Christie? I trust that your concerns have been laid to rest. Fortunately, he has denied ever taking steroids. Now we only have to worry about his 15 month driving ban.

I have always loved how Christie escaped a ban in 1988 (Olympics made famous by fellow sprinter Ben Johnson): "It was reported that two of the judging panels were asleep when the vote was taken."

Ah, poor Ben. He gets nailed while cheaters like Christie and Carl Lewis walk away with medals from "the dirtiest race in history".

Asleep during the vote? It appears the Brits are just so much more civilized about cheating the system, and the ROW has a lot to learn.

Loved the movie Chariots of Fire. It was so inspirational. Loved how Abrahams, ultimately the elder statesman of British athletics, cheated by hiring a professional coach. Loved how the Prince of Wales pressured Liddell to go against his faith, and the organizers to change the racing schedule.

Anyhow, fortunately all cheating in British Sport is limited solely to some Jamaican born sprinter. Nothing of the sort would ever happen in Futbol, of course.

Well, goodness, cheating just isn't Cricket! (unless it is the English and their match rigging, ball tampering...)

Now, are you sure that dubious characters have never risen to influential positions within the British political system? Perhaps Cromwell was elected to French Parliament.

C'mon mate, open your eyes. Your countrymen have provided centuries worth of examples for the colonies to follow.

Dave.

 

[Deagol]

great article..


"Hoberman says he closed his 2005 SCA report by concluding that Armstrong was a categorical, systematic liar. Paraphrasing his report, Hoberman recalls writing that 'he is surviving only because he is a cancer survivor and an icon'.”

 

[wilts rover]

You'd best start reconsidering your 'stiff upper lip'.

You had some doubts about who, Linford Christie? I trust that your concerns have been laid to rest. Fortunately, he has denied ever taking steroids. Now we only have to worry about his 15 month driving ban.

I have always loved how Christie escaped a ban in 1988 (Olympics made famous by fellow sprinter Ben Johnson): "It was reported that two of the judging panels were asleep when the vote was taken."

Ah, poor Ben. He gets nailed while cheaters like Christie and Carl Lewis walk away with medals from "the dirtiest race in history".

Asleep during the vote? It appears the Brits are just so much more civilized about cheating the system, and the ROW has a lot to learn.

Loved the movie Chariots of Fire. It was so inspirational. Loved how Abrahams, ultimately the elder statesman of British athletics, cheated by hiring a professional coach. Loved how the Prince of Wales pressured Liddell to go against his faith, and the organizers to change the racing schedule.

Anyhow, fortunately all cheating in British Sport is limited solely to some Jamaican born sprinter. Nothing of the sort would ever happen in Futbol, of course.

Well, goodness, cheating just isn't Cricket! (unless it is the English and their match rigging, ball tampering...)

Now, are you sure that dubious characters have never risen to influential positions within the British political system? Perhaps Cromwell was elected to French Parliament.

C'mon mate, open your eyes. Your countrymen have provided centuries worth of examples for the colonies to follow.

Dave.

Interesting response,however I would have taken it more seriously if you had mentioned Tony Kaye and the Shef Wednesday betting scandal in futbol, (or even Bruce Grobelaar and the brown envelopes), Harlequins and their 'bloodgate', even WG Grace putting the bails back on and Bodyline. Thats without mentioning Saturday afternoon wrestling. But a Hollywood film where you get the details wrong (the organiser's didnt change the schedule, Liddell changed events), come on.

But to quote Oliver Cromwell as an example of corruption in the British political system!!! He's probably the only one who wasn't corrupt. You could pick any one from Tony Blair, Thatcher, Wilson, Lloyd George, Ramsay McDonald et al and every royal in history - but Cromwell, I'm off for a lie down with a cup of tea.

 

[D-Queued]

^^^ Was meant to be light-hearted.

But, Cromwell? Sheesh.

Dave.

 

[lean mean &green]

good article. hoberman has a pretty good understanding of the problem but he seems surprisingly clueless about potential solutions.

 

[peterst6906]

This is the quote of the article for me (from Page 2):

“There is a simultaneous competition to demonstrate, or at least give the impression, that one is a loyal member of WADA,” Hoberman told VeloNews. “The medals competition is now quite seriously being accompanied by a ‘who can produce the best ostensibly drug-free show.’”

As an example of the heights this theater can reach, Hoberman points out that Alexander Lukashenko, the nefarious Belarussian dictator that recently fired his country’s sports minister and deputy for only delivering 12 gold medals in London, “issued a ringing declaration that his athletes were going to be clean.” Belarussian shotputter Nadzeya Ostapchuk lost her London gold medal after testing positive for steroids.

“The scum of the earth can play that game,” said Hoberman. “I mean, he is a criminal. And when Lukashenko comes out beating his breast over what a great anti-doper he is, it’s obvious that this is a political game that is running parallel with and attached to the traditional sportive nationalism.”

That sums up a lot of the problem, the need to balance the desire for national success with the challenge of appearing clean.

Everyone wants their athletes to be successful. In some ways, nationally run anti-doping authorities run counter to that desire if they do their job effectively. I'm sure many countries want their ADAs to be nothing more than a PR mechanism on a facade of clean sport.

 

[Grandillusion]

good article. hoberman has a pretty good understanding of the problem but he seems surprisingly clueless about potential solutions.

It's a fantastically thought provoking article. He's been thinking about this problem for 25 years, and the implications are pretty bleak really aren't they?

 

[Dear Wiggo]

good article. hoberman has a pretty good understanding of the problem but he seems surprisingly clueless about potential solutions.

Good to see someone finally agrees with me that the solution starts with the riders

 

[Le breton]

I came across an insightful article over at Velonews (who knew?)...

http://velonews.competitor.com/2012...explores-cultural-phenomenon-of-doping_265230

The article goes way beyond Armstrong in its scope, though the university professor didn't have to go far afield to find appropriate subject matter.

I stopped reading when I reached this sentence :
some privacy group in France lobbied the government and they stripped the names out of this thing.”

I figured I couldn't take seriously somebody who was not even aware that the form in which the data, with the name of the dopers, were presented in the old version of that website was in violation of French law.

The website, however, refers the readers to l'arriviste's website (if I amnot mistaken) containing much of the same info.

Anyway, if that profesor published in a US website the info he saved from the French website, there is nothing the CNIL (centre national informatique et liberté) could do about it, as far as I know.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

I stopped reading when I reached this sentence :
some privacy group in France lobbied the government and they stripped the names out of this thing.”

I figured I couldn't take seriously somebody who was not even aware that the form in which the data, with the name of the dopers, were presented in the old version of that website was in violation of French law.

The website, however, refers the readers to l'arriviste's website (if I amnot mistaken) containing much of the same info.

Anyway, if that profesor published in a US website the info he saved from the French website, there is nothing the CNIL (centre national informatique et liberté) could do about it, as far as I know.

I did struggle with the whole "the data is no longer available nor sourced", when quite clearly the website exists and is sourced. ...

 

[Le breton]

I did struggle with the whole "the data is no longer available nor sourced", when quite clearly the website exists and is sourced. ...

A few years back, if I remember correctly, that website contained information that wasn't "official", allegations, suspicions, etc.

 

[D-Queued]

I did struggle with the whole "the data is no longer available nor sourced", when quite clearly the website exists and is sourced. ...

Virtually EVERYTHING that was on the web can be found. I have gone back many times to see how the FFF site changed over time. Very interesting.

Dave.

 

[Grandillusion]

Wood for the trees, boys. Instead of trying to undermine his academic credibility, why don't you read page 4 again, then flick over to the Professional Cycling part of the forum, specifically the Tour de France 2013 predictions.

Interesting. Might be possible to make some links there.

 

[L'arriviste]

I stopped reading when I reached this sentence :
some privacy group in France lobbied the government and they stripped the names out of this thing.”

I figured I couldn't take seriously somebody who was not even aware that the form in which the data, with the name of the dopers, were presented in the old version of that website was in violation of French law.

The website, however, refers the readers to l'arriviste's website (if I amnot mistaken) containing much of the same info.

Anyway, if that profesor published in a US website the info he saved from the French website, there is nothing the CNIL (centre national informatique et liberté) could do about it, as far as I know.

To be fair to Dr Hoberman, he contacted me this week prior to the interview being published so it seems possible that he had not checked the excellent cyclisme-dopage.com again until very recently.

Cyclisme-dopage.com's original, complete list was both accurate and scrupulously researched - I also have contact with its owner from time to time and have learned of the work done to produce it, as well as benefited from it in a limited way - but it did not quote the sources (the majority of which were offline in those days) and its overall tone of mild indignation seems to have irked the complainants, for it should be noted that certain people made complaints.

What happened, as the website relates today and which is understandably not detailed in the interview with Dr Hoberman, is that the owner and the authority (a public interest authority capable of taking legal action, not just 'some rights group') came to an agreement in which the list could remain without names and so it does today. Meanwhile the owner has moved the website further into the editorial side. The site still makes for essential reading even without the names.

 

[Le breton]

To be fair to Dr Hoberman, he contacted me this week prior to the interview being published so it seems possible that he had not checked the excellent cyclisme-dopage.com again until very recently.

Cyclisme-dopage.com's original, complete list was both accurate and scrupulously researched - I also have contact with its owner from time to time and have learned of the work done to produce it, as well as benefited from it in a limited way - but it did not quote the sources (the majority of which were offline in those days) and its overall tone of mild indignation seems to have irked the complainants, for it should be noted that certain people made complaints.

What happened, as the website relates today and which is understandably not detailed in the interview with Dr Hoberman, is that the owner and the authority (a public interest authority capable of taking legal action, not just 'some rights group') came to an agreement in which the list could remain without names and so it does today. Meanwhile the owner has moved the website further into the editorial side. The site still makes for essential reading even without the names.

Thanks L'arriviste for your post.

So, do you think it's worth reading Hoberman's paper?

 

[Zam_Olyas]

Good article.....I also think it explains a lot of the misunderstandings on the Clinic.
I'm British, and the national attitude towards doping in sport no doubt affects my values. We've lived with "failure" at cycling for generations, apart from Olympics over the last 12 years. I simply cannot believe any of the Olympic (cycling) success is doping related, though I did have suspicions about the male athletics sprinters and a female javelin thrower for a while 20-30 years ago.
I cannot for example, believe that a sport drug cheat would be elected in this country (although our PM, like many others, obviously experimented with drugs during adolescence).
If Sky was found to be involved in doping, so much would unravel that it simply is beyond my comprehension. I cannot believe it, though if evidence came out, I'd like to think I was open to re-evaluate. We'd rather a valiant loser than a doped winner every time.
But posters from the USA & Australia seem just not to understand the Brits, and view our nationalist faith as amusing or pitiable. I kinda admire the Aussie in your face way of directness, but have more of a problem with American dominance & what I perceive as arrogance.
I think if we spent a bit more time being honest about our mindsets, we might understand each other better?
I'm going to read the article again!

You gave hon. Knighthood to a doping doc from east germany...row, row row your boat, gentle down the stream.

 

[coinneach]

You gave hon. Knighthood to a doping doc from east germany...row, row row your boat, gentle down the stream.

Care to enlighten me?

I should also confess to a suspicion about one of our current popular olympic champions, heck, even I like him, but he went to train in the USA leading up to the games, and in my mind, that + improved performance makes him suspicious.
(I guess to me USA and athletics is like Tenerife and cyclists! I must get rid of these prejudices!!)

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Mo Farah is way less suspect than Christine Ohuruogu. She's only run sub-50 seconds 3 times in her career - 2 Olympic finals and a World Championships final. Add that to her whereabouts issues.

Didn't a bunch of Ukrainian wrestlers suddenly become British in the last couple of years too? I think at least one of those has popped positive recently.

Also, you say that you can't believe that any of the recent Olympic cycling success is doping related, but what in God's name makes Wiggins' or Froome's recent transformations less suspicious than Mo Farah's?

 

[ElChingon]

Nice story, but what gets me is two fold. Why is this only being reported out now and why not publish the list, its time to clear it all out and that list should aid in the recovery process.

 

[L'arriviste]

Thanks L'arriviste for your post.

So, do you think it's worth reading Hoberman's paper?

Sorry, I don't follow you there: which paper?

Do you mean the one he did for the SCA case? I don't know if that's even in the public domain, but I haven't read it anyway.

Or, if you mean the original annuaire list, I came across that very recently. It attempts to cover a much broader time period than either Dr Hoberman or I in our different ways but again, without any sources in situ, I can appreciate how some may have found it questionable back when it was fully out there.

I have reason to believe that the author of the list does possess the sources but that they were not made available online, presumably for lack of resources and reproduction rights.

 

[coinneach]

Mo Farah is way less suspect than Christine Ohuruogu. She's only run sub-50 seconds 3 times in her career - 2 Olympic finals and a World Championships final. Add that to her whereabouts issues.Accepted: dare I say it, also bodyshape looks doped

Didn't a bunch of Ukrainian wrestlers suddenly become British in the last couple of years too? I think at least one of those has popped positive recently.

Also, you say that you can't believe that any of the recent Olympic cycling success is doping related, but what in God's name makes Wiggins' or Froome's recent transformations less suspicious than Mo Farah's?

Well, the thread is about nationalism and I am trying to reflect on my own issues/attitudes. But, since you ask, to the best of my knowledge, the athletes trained alone, whereas Wiggins is so integrated into British Cycling that there is no way he would take all that down with him. IMHPO (P=prejudiced)

 

[Grandillusion]

Well, the thread is about nationalism and I am trying to reflect on my own issues/attitudes. But, since you ask, to the best of my knowledge, the athletes trained alone, whereas Wiggins is so integrated into British Cycling that there is no way he would take all that down with him. IMHPO (P=prejudiced)

After class with Chingon, Coinneach... it's really not that hard, you'll get there in the end. Then be able to move on.

Clue: Hoberman. Read it again a couple of times and try to forget about Sky and Wiggins for a while.