Euskal Herriko Itzulia 2018 - April 2-7

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Re: Re:

DFA123 said:
Blanco said:
DFA123 said:
Koronin said:
In fairness to those two GT wins, the Giro he attacked when the race was neutralized and at la Vuelta if Contador doesn't go through the plan he can Valverde came up with before the stage Quintana doesn't win that one.
I'm not really sure what you mean here. Aren't they examples of what good tactics are? Responding to race situations by making decisions which maxmize your chances of winning?

Also I think the role of Contador, and especially Valverde, is very much overplayed in that Formigal stage. It was Quintana who was the one being marked by Sky and the one which managed to get away. And the one who rode the entire last 20km on the front, riding everyone except Brambilla off his wheel on shallow gradients. It was a supreme tactical and physical triumph by Quintana, and it's strange to me how often people try to downplay his role in it.
Contador's role is not overplayed at all. He made that break. Without him, Quintana goes nowhere. And he didn't decide anything, he was put there by his team, then Valverde let the gap open and that was it, the break formed. Of course he rode like a true champion later, nothing to downplay there, but I don't think he made any tactical decision while break was forming.
The point is that there seems to be an implication that Quintana did nothing (not by you, as you clearly state ;) ), that he was just gifted a victory by Contador (and now Valverde as well :confused: ). Which is nonsense. Quintana was a key part of the move as well, and, as you say, he played the tactics absolutely perfectly in the last 30km to maximize his advantage.

I get that Quintana is unpopular around these parts. But some trying to claim he is some tactical dunce, by completing denying his role in his tactical triumphs is ridiculous.
I guess we are off topic but fwiw I already tried telling kokorin that Quintana is not idiot on tactics otherwise he would not have won that many races.

Additionally this is getting annoying that everything that happens in Movistar is Quintana's fault. Valverde has been riding with Movistar way longer than the other two and he has had his failures as well.

BTW, nice race. The strongest won and well deservingly.
 
Only been following the race on the outside, but it looks to have been an amazing race. Seems like the best rider won - congrats to Rogla. Pleased that the podium is rounded out by two of my favourite riders as well and it sure looks like Mas did something amazing today. The future of spanish cycling is bright!
 
Re: Re:

Escarabajo said:
DFA123 said:
Blanco said:
DFA123 said:
I'm not really sure what you mean here. Aren't they examples of what good tactics are? Responding to race situations by making decisions which maxmize your chances of winning?

Also I think the role of Contador, and especially Valverde, is very much overplayed in that Formigal stage. It was Quintana who was the one being marked by Sky and the one which managed to get away. And the one who rode the entire last 20km on the front, riding everyone except Brambilla off his wheel on shallow gradients. It was a supreme tactical and physical triumph by Quintana, and it's strange to me how often people try to downplay his role in it.
Contador's role is not overplayed at all. He made that break. Without him, Quintana goes nowhere. And he didn't decide anything, he was put there by his team, then Valverde let the gap open and that was it, the break formed. Of course he rode like a true champion later, nothing to downplay there, but I don't think he made any tactical decision while break was forming.
The point is that there seems to be an implication that Quintana did nothing (not by you, as you clearly state ;) ), that he was just gifted a victory by Contador (and now Valverde as well :confused: ). Which is nonsense. Quintana was a key part of the move as well, and, as you say, he played the tactics absolutely perfectly in the last 30km to maximize his advantage.

I get that Quintana is unpopular around these parts. But some trying to claim he is some tactical dunce, by completing denying his role in his tactical triumphs is ridiculous.
I guess we are off topic but fwiw I already tried telling kokorin that Quintana is not idiot on tactics otherwise he would not have won that many races.

Additionally this is getting annoying that everything that happens in Movistar is Quintana's fault. Valverde has been riding with Movistar way longer than the other two and he has had his failures as well.

BTW, nice race. The strongest won and well deservingly.
That's just bull.

Quintana primarily wins races because of sheer ability. The question is whether he would've won more or less with better or worse tactics.

And Quintana is a very one dimensional rider. He has one terrain where he thrives compared to his primary opposition, so it's not like he has a lot of choices to make.
 
Re: Re:

LaFlorecita said:
DFA123 said:
Koronin said:
Except at that particular stage of that Vuelts there is video and photos of Valverde and Contador is deep conversation in which they did not want others to know what they were saying. Then we get that break. The following season Contador and Valverde came up with a similar idea at Catalonia and pulled it off again. The Giro WAS neutralized and Quintana should NOT have been allowed to keep his advantage.
So nothing at all concrete then. Maybe Quintana came up with the plan and asked Valverde to let Contador know about it. Maybe, perhaps most likely, it was something they discussed and came up with together. It certainly is not evidence that Quintana is tactically useless anyway.
or most likely, Contador came up with the plan the day before as has been reported, told Valverde about it hoping to find some allies, and Valverde told his team including Quintana about it.

This. It's been reported by several riders. Quintana was not involved in this plan other than being told about it after the fact.
 
Re: Re:

Escarabajo said:
DFA123 said:
Blanco said:
DFA123 said:
Koronin said:
In fairness to those two GT wins, the Giro he attacked when the race was neutralized and at la Vuelta if Contador doesn't go through the plan he can Valverde came up with before the stage Quintana doesn't win that one.
I'm not really sure what you mean here. Aren't they examples of what good tactics are? Responding to race situations by making decisions which maxmize your chances of winning?

Also I think the role of Contador, and especially Valverde, is very much overplayed in that Formigal stage. It was Quintana who was the one being marked by Sky and the one which managed to get away. And the one who rode the entire last 20km on the front, riding everyone except Brambilla off his wheel on shallow gradients. It was a supreme tactical and physical triumph by Quintana, and it's strange to me how often people try to downplay his role in it.
Contador's role is not overplayed at all. He made that break. Without him, Quintana goes nowhere. And he didn't decide anything, he was put there by his team, then Valverde let the gap open and that was it, the break formed. Of course he rode like a true champion later, nothing to downplay there, but I don't think he made any tactical decision while break was forming.
The point is that there seems to be an implication that Quintana did nothing (not by you, as you clearly state ;) ), that he was just gifted a victory by Contador (and now Valverde as well :confused: ). Which is nonsense. Quintana was a key part of the move as well, and, as you say, he played the tactics absolutely perfectly in the last 30km to maximize his advantage.

I get that Quintana is unpopular around these parts. But some trying to claim he is some tactical dunce, by completing denying his role in his tactical triumphs is ridiculous.
I guess we are off topic but fwiw I already tried telling kokorin that Quintana is not idiot on tactics otherwise he would not have won that many races.

Additionally this is getting annoying that everything that happens in Movistar is Quintana's fault. Valverde has been riding with Movistar way longer than the other two and he has had his failures as well.

BTW, nice race. The strongest won and well deservingly.
Yep, you don't win as many stage races as he has done, while weighing 55kg, unless you make a lot of good tactical decisions. When he's by himself he consistently has turned promising situations into winning advantages. Where he can improve is using the whole team better I think. But this has been a Movistar problem for a long time, whoever the leader - such a strong team but so inconsistent in using it effectively to make the race chaotic.
 
Re: Re:

Koronin said:
LaFlorecita said:
DFA123 said:
Koronin said:
Except at that particular stage of that Vuelts there is video and photos of Valverde and Contador is deep conversation in which they did not want others to know what they were saying. Then we get that break. The following season Contador and Valverde came up with a similar idea at Catalonia and pulled it off again. The Giro WAS neutralized and Quintana should NOT have been allowed to keep his advantage.
So nothing at all concrete then. Maybe Quintana came up with the plan and asked Valverde to let Contador know about it. Maybe, perhaps most likely, it was something they discussed and came up with together. It certainly is not evidence that Quintana is tactically useless anyway.
or most likely, Contador came up with the plan the day before as has been reported, told Valverde about it hoping to find some allies, and Valverde told his team including Quintana about it.

This. It's been reported by several riders. Quintana was not involved in this plan other than being told about it after the fact.
Do you have any links to reports stating this? It seems a strangely specific thing for 'several riders' to be reporting.
 
Re: Re:

DFA123 said:
Koronin said:
LaFlorecita said:
DFA123 said:
Koronin said:
Except at that particular stage of that Vuelts there is video and photos of Valverde and Contador is deep conversation in which they did not want others to know what they were saying. Then we get that break. The following season Contador and Valverde came up with a similar idea at Catalonia and pulled it off again. The Giro WAS neutralized and Quintana should NOT have been allowed to keep his advantage.
So nothing at all concrete then. Maybe Quintana came up with the plan and asked Valverde to let Contador know about it. Maybe, perhaps most likely, it was something they discussed and came up with together. It certainly is not evidence that Quintana is tactically useless anyway.
or most likely, Contador came up with the plan the day before as has been reported, told Valverde about it hoping to find some allies, and Valverde told his team including Quintana about it.

This. It's been reported by several riders. Quintana was not involved in this plan other than being told about it after the fact.
Do you have any links to reports stating this? It seems a strangely specific thing for 'several riders' to be reporting.
You can't accept the fact that Quintana had nothing to do with this plan and was at best a beneficiary of it. Not my problem you didn't read all the stuff reported right after the stage was over.
 
Re: Re:

DFA123 said:
Koronin said:
LaFlorecita said:
DFA123 said:
Koronin said:
Except at that particular stage of that Vuelts there is video and photos of Valverde and Contador is deep conversation in which they did not want others to know what they were saying. Then we get that break. The following season Contador and Valverde came up with a similar idea at Catalonia and pulled it off again. The Giro WAS neutralized and Quintana should NOT have been allowed to keep his advantage.
So nothing at all concrete then. Maybe Quintana came up with the plan and asked Valverde to let Contador know about it. Maybe, perhaps most likely, it was something they discussed and came up with together. It certainly is not evidence that Quintana is tactically useless anyway.
or most likely, Contador came up with the plan the day before as has been reported, told Valverde about it hoping to find some allies, and Valverde told his team including Quintana about it.

This. It's been reported by several riders. Quintana was not involved in this plan other than being told about it after the fact.
Do you have any links to reports stating this? It seems a strangely specific thing for 'several riders' to be reporting.
Don’t ever question Koronin's sources unless you want to end up looking like a fool :D
 
Do we even know there was a plan? Contador might as well just have seen that froome wasn't well positioned and therefore thought, "why not, I'll give it a try". If there is no clear source claiming valverde was part of this "plan" why on earth should we assume someone who wasn't even a part of the attack was the one who had the idea to attack (especially since people also claim he didn't tell anyone else in his team to attack. Or was Quintana the only person in the team not knowing the "plan". Again, that wouldn't really make a lot of sense.)
 
Gigs_98 said:
Do we even know there was a plan? Contador might as well just have seen that froome wasn't well positioned and therefore thought, "why not, I'll give it a try". If there is no clear source claiming valverde was part of this "plan" why on earth should we assume someone who wasn't even a part of the attack was the one who had the idea to attack (especially since people also claim he didn't tell anyone else in his team to attack. Or was Quintana the only person in the team not knowing the "plan". Again, that wouldn't really make a lot of sense.)
Berto said he picked the spot to attack the day before, when he was in the car to the hotel.
With both Movistar and Tinkoff having 3 riders in the group, I'm thinking both should have known about this move beforehand.
Froome being so far back just helped tremendously.
 
Rafa Valls kind of got a bit of hype when he emerged back in 2010 in the pre-season races like San Luís for Footon, who of course had an absolutely bleh roster of riders, so he got a lot more freedom than he would realistically have attained at another team and should probably have been at ProConti at that stage rather than sent to the Tour de France as the team had little in the way of more realistic options to impact the race. He got that 2nd at Les Rousses after attacking away from the péloton on the last climb, but was otherwise quiet, before being lost in the shuffle in the Geox buyout with Menchov, Sastre and co. all ahead of him in the pecking order and not making the Vuelta team.

A few lost years with Vacansoleil and Lampre followed, before 2015 when he got a bit of hype after going well early season once more, winning the Tour of Oman and going well in Paris-Nice and Catalunya. However, as ever long-form recovery is a problem for him and though he had a good Dauphiné he was utterly anonymous in the Tour, and at 28 he was no longer really investable as a project. At Movistar he essentially fits in as a lower slopes domestique for the mountains and that will be his niche. Movistar had been after Amaro Antunes but he wanted to go ProConti to get more freedom and Valls' agent caught wind of this and suggested him as an alternative, which the team were happy enough with as he's an experienced rider at the WT level who knows at this stage that he isn't going to justify aspirations of leading a team.
 

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