Evans...

[BigBoat]

That comment just shows your intelligence about cycling- little to nothing

Why flame with me....?... I will make a post on what I think of the man. One post and thats it. A timeline:

Cadel started out in the AIS in 1995.

A number of young juniors around 2002 were were taught to have group injections in their public paid dormitories from ages 14-18. Doping became a social norm in this "institute of sport," how to dope and doping being acceptable and normal is very very important in the young teenager's development.

http://sixtyminutesv2.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=259182

-2001; He moved onto European professional road racing to compete with the infamous Saeco which competed extremely well at the Giro when a mass police drug raid reveiled 02 carriers like HemAssit being used, and hundreds of syringes, vials, and other drug paraphernalia.

-He competed then on Johan Museeuw's favorite team Mapei Everybody's favorite manager Patrick Lefevere worked this team. Dopers Oscar Camenzind (EPO), Manuel Beltrán (Tour de EPO mule), Dr. Ferrari doper Axel Merckx, Johan Museeuw (Aranesp EPO) , Pavel Tonkov (Dr. Ferrari), Frank Vandenbroucke (clenbuterol, morphine and EPO), Patrik Sinkewitz (testosterone), Tony Rominger (Dr. Ferrari) all rode for this team.

2003-2004 Team telekom... Brief encounter with Dr. Ferrari? Not known for sure.
Erik Zabel (EPO) Oscar Sevilla (Dr. Fuentes), Jan Ullrich (Dr. Fuentes), Matthias Kessler (Friedburg), Andreas Klöden (friedburg) were some of his famously doped teamates of the team in pink. Walter Godefroot taught Cadel a few of the "tricks?"

2006- onwards. Chris Horner's heavily doped assistance, finsihes 8th..Due to Dr. Ferrari improvement? Loses time when Roid Landis attacks (possibly after blood refill and 02 carrier infusions?)

2007 loses time on Contradoper but still manages 2nd due to Chicken man Rasmussen having difficulties maintaining credibility.(bovine hemoglobin, biopure, frozen packed red cells, then Dynepo after running out of frozen packed cells)....

2008... No blood doping or only minimal dope...Nobody quite has the bio passport figured out yet... Sastre blood dopes for final TT and hold Evans off dramatically.

2009. Evans "average" to intermediate level TDF team rider Dekker goes positive for EPO after leaving his expert doping doctor Chechini back in 2007. The amount of epo required to dope with would have made him test postive 100 times or more so the only logical conclusion is that he was blood doping.

The empirical evidence appears to suggest 100% of Evan's teamates on every pro team he was ever on were doped (or very close to 100%).

Science shows full endurance trauma therapy doping gives a 20-30% power increase. I find it hard to believe Evans overcame a 30% deficit on other talented riders for the last 15 years. I do not hate Evans for doping.

 

[Mongol_Waaijer]

Although I would not be at all surprised if Evans had doped at some stage (or often) I do feel that out of the top GC riders there is less evidence against him than many others.

He hasn't gotten out of actual positive tests on a technicality like LA, he wasn't linked to Fuentes (Contador, Schleck, Valverde) or Human Plasma (Menchov), it hasn't been openly stated that he worked with Ferrari (LA)

One point you do raise that I have often wondered about is that using doping for a considerable period of time makes you permanently stronger as well as temporarily stronger.

If you have artificial help to enable you to push out 7w/kg when you would normally fade out at 6 then you have gone deep enough often enough that you stand a better chance of achieving that clean in the future...

For that reason I would favour lifetime bans.

 

[ProfTournesol]

Science shows full endurance trauma therapy doping gives a 20-30% power increase. I find it hard to believe Evans overcame a 30% deficit on other talented riders for the last 15 years. I do not hate Evans for doping.

of course we can only speculate and would never know for sure unless he did test positive, but he's one of the few GC risers who at least gives an impression that he's stuffed at the end of a stage: he's red, puffing or gasping, can hardly climb off his bike. Of course this doesn't prove it either way but it's a great contrast to some other winners who ascend with a respiratory rate of what looks like 12 breaths a minute, perspire lightly and are able to give long interviews as soon as they stop the bike.

I'd challenge you though to find a top genuine GC contender who hasn't been surrounded by convicted dopers.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

Although I would not be at all surprised if Evans had doped at some stage (or often) I do feel that out of the top GC riders there is less evidence against him than many others.

Ahh yes, the cleaner theory. Sort of like "Mr. Clean", Sastre. Which really means cleaner than others...right?

Or is it just smarter?

For that reason I would favour lifetime bans.

As long as they apply to team management, doctors and soigners first.

 

[Indurain]

I often wondered about Evans. For awhile I thought he wasn't a doper as he did take a pretty hard stance against some dopers who got caught. In fact he was quite vicious in his attack. I can't remember the riders etc but I thought at the time that if he was a doper, that speaking out like this was unwise.

Using BigBoats analysis, I'm not so sure now.

 

[msjett]

I appreciate your post Bigboat, it is both interesting and informative. And I am sure you will **** quite a few people off.

The upside is it will create further discussion and makes a change from all the LA and AC bashing that happens on here.

So keep up the good work....

 

[Frosty]

So why has Cadel Evans only achieved a lot 2007 onwards? I know he had some injuries before then but wouldnt you expect him to have had more results before 2007?

 

[DJ Sprtsch]

He did a lot of good results before 2007 as well. Palmares.
2003 (injured) and 2004 were more quiet years. 2005 he was 8th in the TdF, then 4th in 2006 (where he won the Romandie) followed by 2nd, 2nd.

 

[ambrose]

Why flame with me....?... I will make a post on what I think of the man. One post and thats it. A timeline:

Cadel started out in the AIS in 1995.

A number of young juniors around 2002 were were taught to have group injections in their public paid dormitories from ages 14-18. Doping became a social norm in this "institute of sport," how to dope and doping being acceptable and normal is very very important in the young teenager's development.

http://sixtyminutesv2.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=259182

-
2009. Evans "average" to intermediate level TDF team rider Dekker goes positive for EPO after leaving his expert doping doctor Chechini back in 2007. The amount of epo required to dope with would have made him test postive 100 times or more so the only logical conclusion is that he was blood doping.

There are a few things which are wrong. the first is that he was doping at the AIS. Though i can't prove he wasn't the evidence here does not show this at all. The evidence from this interview no way indicates that evans was doping, short of saying one aussie cyclist doped, so then they all must of. Sean Eadie, mark french etc were all track sprinters, which is a completley different program to what cadel was participating at the time. I have been around the AIS programs for several years, and the track sprinters are compleltey seperate from the track enduros, even more so the MTB or road programs. I also have been around the individuals in the track program and have found them to be of complete different temperment then the roadies. Jobie for one battled alcohol and substance abuse before his death earlier this year.

Also if you'd read closely dekker tested positive at rabobank, not silence.

My personal opinion is that cadels slow rise in the sport would indicate that maybe he is clean (or at least not as dirty as others, ike AC)

 

[il_fiammingo]

Why flame with me....?... I will make a post on what I think of the man. One post and thats it. A timeline:

Cadel started out in the AIS in 1995.

A number of young juniors around 2002 were were taught to have group injections in their public paid dormitories from ages 14-18. Doping became a social norm in this "institute of sport," how to dope and doping being acceptable and normal is very very important in the young teenager's development.

http://sixtyminutesv2.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=259182

-2001; He moved onto European professional road racing to compete with the infamous Saeco which competed extremely well at the Giro when a mass police drug raid reveiled 02 carriers like HemAssit being used, and hundreds of syringes, vials, and other drug paraphernalia.

-He competed then on Johan Museeuw's favorite team Mapei Everybody's favorite manager Patrick Lefevere worked this team. Dopers Oscar Camenzind (EPO), Manuel Beltrán (Tour de EPO mule), Dr. Ferrari doper Axel Merckx, Johan Museeuw (Aranesp EPO) , Pavel Tonkov (Dr. Ferrari), Frank Vandenbroucke (clenbuterol, morphine and EPO), Patrik Sinkewitz (testosterone), Tony Rominger (Dr. Ferrari) all rode for this team.

In 2002 the Belgian part of Mapei didn't exist anymore. They all went to Domo-Farm Frites founded in 2001. Evans never rode for Lefevere and never had Museeuw as team mate. In 2002 Camenzind, Beltran, Merckx, Tonkov , VDB, Rominger weren't in this team neither. Only Sinkewitz was.

 

[Mambo95]

Let's have a look at BigBoat's so called "evidence" a little closer.

Ambrose has covered the AIS years.

-2001; He moved onto European professional road racing to compete with the infamous Saeco which competed extremely well at the Giro when a mass police drug raid reveiled 02 carriers like HemAssit being used, and hundreds of syringes, vials, and other drug paraphernalia.

He was never properly a Saeco rider - he was still a full time mountain biker and did a couple of races as a guest rider.

-He competed then on Johan Museeuw's favorite team Mapei Everybody's favorite manager Patrick Lefevere worked this team. Dopers Oscar Camenzind (EPO), Manuel Beltrán (Tour de EPO mule), Dr. Ferrari doper Axel Merckx, Johan Museeuw (Aranesp EPO) , Pavel Tonkov (Dr. Ferrari), Frank Vandenbroucke (clenbuterol, morphine and EPO), Patrik Sinkewitz (testosterone), Tony Rominger (Dr. Ferrari) all rode for this team.

Lefevere had left to set up Domo long before Evans got there - every rider you mention had also left ( some five or six years previously), except one - Sinkewitz, who said it was the only team he didn't dope at.

2003-2004 Team telekom... Brief encounter with Dr. Ferrari? Not known for sure.
Erik Zabel (EPO) Oscar Sevilla (Dr. Fuentes), Jan Ullrich (Dr. Fuentes), Matthias Kessler (Friedburg), Andreas Klöden (friedburg) were some of his famously doped teamates of the team in pink. Walter Godefroot taught Cadel a few of the "tricks?"

Any link to Ferrari, apart from that one single line on a German website two years ago (which they apologised for after getting him confused with Rogers)? No.

He was largely ignored at T-Mobile and not considered a 'team player'. Also have a look at T-Mobile on stage 5 of the 2004 Vuelta - when they got 'food poisoning'. Three DNFs (including Botero) and three others (including Vino) lost 40+ minutes. Completely uneffected was Evans, who came 6th (9 seconds down).

2006- onwards. Chris Horner's heavily doped assistance, finsihes 8th..Due to Dr. Ferrari improvement? Loses time when Roid Landis attacks (possibly after blood refill and 02 carrier infusions?)

2007 loses time on Contradoper but still manages 2nd due to Chicken man Rasmussen having difficulties maintaining credibility.(bovine hemoglobin, biopure, frozen packed red cells, then Dynepo after running out of frozen packed cells)....

2008... No blood doping or only minimal dope...Nobody quite has the bio passport figured out yet... Sastre blood dopes for final TT and hold Evans off dramatically.

2009. Evans "average" to intermediate level TDF team rider Dekker goes positive for EPO after leaving his expert doping doctor Chechini back in 2007. The amount of epo required to dope with would have made him test postive 100 times or more so the only logical conclusion is that he was blood doping.

So in four years all your evidence against him is an unfounded allegation against a teammate and the fact that two Rabobank riders doped.

If this is the standard of your evidence, why should anyone take anything you say remotely seriously?

 

[Captain Kirk]

Why flame with me....?... I will make a post on what I think of the man. One post and thats it. A timeline:

Cadel started out in the AIS in 1995.

A number of young juniors around 2002 were were taught to have group injections in their public paid dormitories from ages 14-18. Doping became a social norm in this "institute of sport," how to dope and doping being acceptable and normal is very very important in the young teenager's development.

http://sixtyminutesv2.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=259182

-2001; He moved onto European professional road racing to compete with the infamous Saeco which competed extremely well at the Giro when a mass police drug raid reveiled 02 carriers like HemAssit being used, and hundreds of syringes, vials, and other drug paraphernalia.

-He competed then on Johan Museeuw's favorite team Mapei Everybody's favorite manager Patrick Lefevere worked this team. Dopers Oscar Camenzind (EPO), Manuel Beltrán (Tour de EPO mule), Dr. Ferrari doper Axel Merckx, Johan Museeuw (Aranesp EPO) , Pavel Tonkov (Dr. Ferrari), Frank Vandenbroucke (clenbuterol, morphine and EPO), Patrik Sinkewitz (testosterone), Tony Rominger (Dr. Ferrari) all rode for this team.

2003-2004 Team telekom... Brief encounter with Dr. Ferrari? Not known for sure.
Erik Zabel (EPO) Oscar Sevilla (Dr. Fuentes), Jan Ullrich (Dr. Fuentes), Matthias Kessler (Friedburg), Andreas Klöden (friedburg) were some of his famously doped teamates of the team in pink. Walter Godefroot taught Cadel a few of the "tricks?"

2006- onwards. Chris Horner's heavily doped assistance, finsihes 8th..Due to Dr. Ferrari improvement? Loses time when Roid Landis attacks (possibly after blood refill and 02 carrier infusions?)

2007 loses time on Contradoper but still manages 2nd due to Chicken man Rasmussen having difficulties maintaining credibility.(bovine hemoglobin, biopure, frozen packed red cells, then Dynepo after running out of frozen packed cells)....

2008... No blood doping or only minimal dope...Nobody quite has the bio passport figured out yet... Sastre blood dopes for final TT and hold Evans off dramatically.

2009. Evans "average" to intermediate level TDF team rider Dekker goes positive for EPO after leaving his expert doping doctor Chechini back in 2007. The amount of epo required to dope with would have made him test postive 100 times or more so the only logical conclusion is that he was blood doping.

The empirical evidence appears to suggest 100% of Evan's teamates on every pro team he was ever on were doped (or very close to 100%).

Science shows full endurance trauma therapy doping gives a 20-30% power increase. I find it hard to believe Evans overcame a 30% deficit on other talented riders for the last 15 years. I do not hate Evans for doping.

Well there ain’t no analysis here, there is not real even a timeline, the only fact is that he started with the AIS in 95.

Of course the Sixty Minutes story linked refers to the Track riders, who are in another state of Australia to where the road and MTB were located in ACT….completely different parts of Australia and completely different programs.

Your end argument is based on the fact he overcame a 20/30% deficit, he has never had a deficit. That is why as junior I and other senior riders competed against him on the Australian National MTB circuit-1993and 1994.

Prior to going the AIS Cadel raced in the Grundig World Cup in Cairns July 27th 1994 he placed 5th at 17 years old, no one that age had placed on World Cup podium before. The depth of field: 3 time World Champion Henrik, Bart Brentjis, Tim Gould, Dave Weins etc. This was before Cadel was a real pro, he rode local Kmart style brand bike.

THERE WAS NO DEFICIT.

That is why Cadel was identified as Australian first TDF candidate at 16, he had better test numbers than Anderson, OGrady, etc, etc.

Why did Cadel speak against dopers who were caught? They were the lamo MTB World Cups riders he used to thrash all season.

Fact: When Cadel was leading the World Cup Series they had to create a new jersey, the UCI combined the Espoir and Senior points jersey by sewing them together. Floyd and The Chicken were also rans, these are the guys who overcame the deficit when they went to Euro Roadie land…. the results in MTB then road is proof. – and the conviction


but he's one of the few GC risers who at least gives an impression that he's stuffed at the end of a stage: he's red, puffing or gasping, can hardly climb off his bike. Of course this doesn't prove it either way but it's a great contrast to some other winners who ascend with a respiratory rate of what looks like 12 breaths a minute, perspire lightly and are able to give long interviews as soon as they stop the bike.

This comment bears true too, check the photos from 94. Same red checks and awkward riding style, with age has come definition and a loss of puppy fat. The same ride to death style, not pretty, not stylish or photogenic….just suffering. That is what he does best, suffering longer than the rest, the last man standing.

 

[unsheath]

Super post Capt. I suppose Bigboat has been found out by his lazy research. In saying that not many outsiders would understand that the AIS track program is seperate to the road and mtb.

 

[ProfTournesol]

Doping became a social norm in this "institute of sport," how to dope and doping being acceptable and normal is very very important in the young teenager's development.

http://sixtyminutesv2.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=259182

you may or may not be correct, your guess is as good as mine, but quoting '48 minutes of bull**** and 12 minutes of advertisments' as a source is not helpful. It has the same veracity as Mad magazine.

 

[El Imbatido]

Frank Vandenbroucke (clenbuterol, morphine and EPO),

Bigboat, do riders really use morphine? What for? Pain relief? Can you explain

Cheers.

 

[auscyclefan94]

Big Boat the big tosser

BigBoat really needs to learn to shut his big fat boat size mouth and get his facts right. As many people have prooved how incorrect his statements are. Why does Big Boat even follow the sport of cycling if all the riders are doped up? I hate people like BIgBoat, who say they love the tour de france as it is a great event with all the drama but claim all riders are cheats. The riders make up the race and drama so how can you really like the sport if the riders are all supposedly cheats? Luckily their is some smart people who have woke up to your bs.

 

[The Dr]

BigBoat....what a joke you are. I'm surprised you know which was is up and which ways is down.
The empirical evidence appears to suggest 100% of Evan's teamates on every pro team he was ever on were doped (or very close to 100%).......complete and utter BS. What really annoys me about forums is that is gives people such as yourself a forum to do exactly what you've done here. Dream up something like this in your spare time, of which you clearly have too much. But why let the facts get in the way of a good story eh?????????

 

[auscyclefan94]

BigBoat....what a joke you are. I'm surprised you know which was is up and which ways is down.
The empirical evidence appears to suggest 100% of Evan's teamates on every pro team he was ever on were doped (or very close to 100%).......complete and utter BS. What really annoys me about forums is that is gives people such as yourself a forum to do exactly what you've done here. Dream up something like this in your spare time, of which you clearly have too much. But why let the facts get in the way of a good story eh?????????

The voice of reason and sense... The Dr

 

[yourwelcome]

To think I had been giving Big Boat some credence until now... importantly though, I do not hate him for sloppy research ;-)

P.S. For those outside of Australia, Sixty Minutes is a tabloid TV show. It shouldn't be quoted or relied upon for factual reporting.

 

[Digger]

Let's have a look at BigBoat's so called "evidence" a little closer.

Ambrose has covered the AIS years.



He was never properly a Saeco rider - he was still a full time mountain biker and did a couple of races as a guest rider.



Lefevere had left to set up Domo long before Evans got there - every rider you mention had also left ( some five or six years previously), except one - Sinkewitz, who said it was the only team he didn't dope at.



Any link to Ferrari, apart from that one single line on a German website two years ago (which they apologised for after getting him confused with Rogers)? No.

He was largely ignored at T-Mobile and not considered a 'team player'. Also have a look at T-Mobile on stage 5 of the 2004 Vuelta - when they got 'food poisoning'. Three DNFs (including Botero) and three others (including Vino) lost 40+ minutes. Completely uneffected was Evans, who came 6th (9 seconds down).



So in four years all your evidence against him is an unfounded allegation against a teammate and the fact that two Rabobank riders doped.

If this is the standard of your evidence, why should anyone take anything you say remotely seriously?

Great post....I agree wholeheatedly with your points here. I'd read a long time ago how Cadel was never accepted into the inner sanctum of T-Mobile, which in light of Kohl's comments, make sense, if indeed Cadel was clean.

I liked Boonen's comments in relation to Cadel two years ago. About the fact that he's given up on all the main GC contenders, except for Cadel.
Cadel's VO2 Max at the AIS was 92, which is the highest they've ever come across in that institute.
Cadel has also had a steady progression up the GC of the Tour, another encouraging sign. No drastic improvements of a mule to a racehorse. And look at the way his form builds each year, not like certain other riders who rode terribly in the spring and early summer, in the rare occasions they did race, yet miraculously turned up flying in July.

In relation to OP, I believe myself to be pretty cynical in relation to pro cycling, but I honestly believe you're way overboard. Not even people I admire so greatly, such as Walsh, Ballester, Kimmage and Lemond, are as bad as you.
To BigBoat, do you believe Bradley Wiggins, Mark Cavendish, David Millar and Dan Martin are currently doping?
Also, I could be wrong, but did I see a post whereby you felt Chris Boardman doped in the 90s? And your views on Obree?

 

[Frosty]

He did a lot of good results before 2007 as well. Palmares.
2003 (injured) and 2004 were more quiet years. 2005 he was 8th in the TdF, then 4th in 2006 (where he won the Romandie) followed by 2nd, 2nd.

Fair enough, what i was looking at was a bit less substantial than that. However, my point is that on teams which there is more evidence for drugs, he didnt do as well (see one of the posts above about his time at t-mobile). Then things happen and apparently people are edgier about taking stuff and his relative performance goes up (although some did get banned).

 

[TRDean]

For what its worth, I believe Evans is a clean rider...I always have. He is probably the only GC rider who would really surprise me if he tested non negative!! That being said...auscyclefan94...you have a bad habit of "hating" anyone who does not agree with your opinion. That is pretty lame!! Let me get this out of the way first...I surely already dislike your style..so I'm sure that when I post an opinion that you don't agree with I will be expecting you to hate my kind. Whew, I'm glad I got that out of the way!! Bring on the Tour.

 

[auscyclefan94]

TRDean please... the only reason i got so angry with Bigboat is because he just continually condemns all riders to be cheats. For anyone else who i have disagreed with, it doesn't mean i hate them because i don't know anyone personally. With the comment against tommy loves rabo i took it back because i knew that it was stupid and very harsh. that doesn't mean i hate tommy loves rabo. i don't hate you for those comments... i just disagree with you

 

[39*23t]

If anything this thread sways me into believing Evans is a clean/er rider so Big Boat posting it can't be a bad thing. Still don't think i can root for him at the tour though.

 

[powderpuff]

Through six degrees of separation Big Boat also found that Cadel was involved in the assassination of President Kennedy, sixteen years before he was born.