Former world champion describes riders as spineless

[avanti]

I have to agree to a large extent with what Moreno Argentin says here:
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/argentin-hits-out-at-contador-and-the-uci
But then I have been watching bike racingsince the late 50s.

 

[TERMINATOR]

I have to agree to a large extent with what Moreno Argentin says here:
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/argentin-hits-out-at-contador-and-the-uci
But then I have been watching bike racingsince the late 50s.

Argentin talks like an idiot. First of all, the guy was doped to the gills (the Gewiss team, c'mon).

As for the riders not being "animated" and racing "like robots"...seem like bizarre criticisms to me.

As for having the riders re-write the sports anti-doping code, give me a break. WADA came about because of the UCI's desire to be included in the Olympics. The IOC would never allow cycling to gut the doping code. Argentin doesn't appear to understand that.

As for the riders being spineless and afraid to say anything...yes they are. Cycling is one of the few sports that doesn't have a player's union. And that's because cyclists are not the brightest people in the world and when it comes to governance of their sport, they are cowards.

 

[la.margna]

With regard to the view on the UCI, he is fully correct.

But as already mentioned by terminator:
Gewiss = Fuller than full, more pumped then Pharmstrong at his extreme

 

[boardhanger]

Yet, what he is saying is right. The current peloton is as exiticing as the snail marathon. Cipolini was correct also. The global appeal is destroying cycling. Dirty, *****y, inter rivalary, stab in the back racing is what makes cycling great. Cycling isn't polo, cycling isn't cricket, cycling isn't tennis. The flemish/wallon/dutch/breton/basque etc etc, whatever local loyality you had was what made it popular and supported from the grass roots up. Internationlism and big conglomorate sponsors and their so called ethics (yeah right) is destroying it. Well said Moreno and Cipo.

 

[Matthijs]

Tour de France is boring, because they do not make it interesting enough. Teams can controll to much of the race. In the good old days:
-teams couldn;t controll 6-7 sprint stages
-in the mountains there where battles without teammates and occasionally topcontenders broke free before the last mountain
-teammates couldn't do everything untill 5k or even 3k of the last mtf

Well, what do we do about that? In the good old days, the same problems appeared. In earlier times, they thoughened up the races. More mountains at GT's, MTF's, hillier classics and so on.
So what do we do now? Maybe the finals of the big races can't be changed that much: their classics and monuments because some features appear and you can't change them all at once. But:
-we can make the first 200k hillier at classics
-we can make the race first 100-150k harder at mountain stages in GT's, so the contenders try to attack before 3k under the top...
-we can reduce team size

Argentin is right. Allthough it's wrong to blame the attitude of the riders, but something can be done to promote aggressive riding.

 

[boardhanger]

Argentin is right. Allthough it's wrong to blame the attitude of the riders, but something can be done to promote aggressive riding.

Somethings needs to be done to entice the racing. Riders have got smart and know the formula for winning along with coroporate money(ask Johan or Lance). So lets move the goal posts to allow cycling to thrive once again. Maybe less teamates and more teams? No radios is a must. An, un-ban the helmet ruling also...........

 

[woodie]

Somethings needs to be done to entice the racing. Riders have got smart and know the formula for winning along with coroporate money(ask Johan or Lance). So lets move the goal posts to allow cycling to thrive once again. Maybe less teamates and more teams? No radios is a must. An, un-ban the helmet ruling also...........

How would getting rid of helmets improve the racing in terms of entertainment, or at all??? If anything it would make the riders more careful. Stop trolling and try some meaningful discussion. Also, saying un-ban makes no sense, are you saying don't ban the rule or ban the rule? Try being clearer

 

[on3m@n@rmy]

Yet, what he is saying is right. The current peloton is as exiticing as the snail marathon. Cipolini was correct also. The global appeal is destroying cycling. Dirty, *****y, inter rivalary, stab in the back racing is what makes cycling great. Cycling isn't polo, cycling isn't cricket, cycling isn't tennis. The flemish/wallon/dutch/breton/basque etc etc, whatever local loyality you had was what made it popular and supported from the grass roots up. Internationlism and big conglomorate sponsors and their so called ethics (yeah right) is destroying it. Well said Moreno and Cipo.

I'd have to agree. I sometimes ask myself, why is it that way nowdays? I think Argentin got to that question a bit when he said in the article "Indurain dominated the grand tours in my time but I beat him at Liege-Bastogne-Liege. And he also rode Milan-San Remo because he understood the history of the sport". I believe Cipo was saying the same kind of thing. Besides Miguel, other big names like Hinault and others like him raced all KINDS of races... classics, GTs, and so on. And THEN I think, well, besides knowing the history of the sport might there be anything else that would have made them more inclined to race different types of races, rather than just focusing on one race or one type of race. Maybe the pay in those days was not what it is now (we know that actually). And maybe just to earn a living guys would do more and different kinds of races... because they like to eat too. We might have it too easy these days. The big money of today might take the edge of some of today's riders, not that they are less competitive when they race, just less willing to do so many different races because they don't have to from a financial standpoint. I dunno for sure... just throwing out thoughts.

 

[jens_attacks]

As for the riders being spineless and afraid to say anything...yes they are. Cycling is one of the few sports that doesn't have a player's union. And that's because cyclists are not the brightest people in the world and when it comes to governance of their sport, they are cowards.

from what i've seen in other sports,probably the biggest cowards out there are the cyclists no doubt.they don't ask respect for their work at all.and is such a hard work,anyone knows that.i just can't believe it.just look at cav with that answer:"yes it'll be ok to do night-time test"wtf?you people have no dignity?it won't surprise me if in two years,some cyclist will say "yes it's ok to stick this machine in my asz to prove that i'm a clean rider.i don't have nothing to hide".for fucc's sake!

anyway i like very much that these days there still are some guys who speak about this and slam the pusssies:cipo and now argentin and from the peloton:klodi and sastre.i still think that cycling have a chance.

 

[movingtarget]

Argentin makes some good points. Race radios have added nothing and as for making the races safer, I doubt if there are less crashes than there used to be because of radios. Remove radios and the riders have to think for themselves. The racing should be less predictable. Unfortunately like most other sports these days it is more about business, less about sport. I think the roads are the problem re crashes. Either racing large bunches on roads that are too narrow or on roads that have too much traffic funiture. But because they often start and finish in large cities, the road situation can't be fixed anyway.

Where are the Chiapucci's these days ? Those types of riders no longer exist. A lot of the races are pretty dull but at least we still have races like the 2010 Giro to offset the dull ones.

 

[Derrick]

Having returned to cycling after 25 years without looking at a bike let alone a race I'm amazed at just how uncompetative modern racing is. Not only are there few real attacks it seems nobody actually defends a break any more. It seems this could be that breaks are seldom formed with any intention of winning but merely to provide air time for various sponsors. It is apparent that the riders themselves have little intention of staying away to the finish. The current extensive coverage available by judicious use of the computer really makes it obvious who the soft tappers are. And there are plenty of them. Anyone who finishes vaguely near the front a couple of times is considered a hero. In the 60's and 70's there were, in Belgium alone, half a dozen riders with 6 wins and 10 or more placings a season who wouldn't get more than a nod of approval. It wasn't the case either that just because the races weren't "classics" they were easy. Bring back the war of attrition. Last one left upright is the winner!

 

[boardhanger]

Having returned to cycling after 25 years without looking at a bike let alone a race I'm amazed at just how uncompetative modern racing is. Not only are there few real attacks it seems nobody actually defends a break any more. It seems this could be that breaks are seldom formed with any intention of winning but merely to provide air time for various sponsors. It is apparent that the riders themselves have little intention of staying away to the finish. The current extensive coverage available by judicious use of the computer really makes it obvious who the soft tappers are. And there are plenty of them. Anyone who finishes vaguely near the front a couple of times is considered a hero. In the 60's and 70's there were, in Belgium alone, half a dozen riders with 6 wins and 10 or more placings a season who wouldn't get more than a nod of approval. It wasn't the case either that just because the races weren't "classics" they were easy. Bring back the war of attrition. Last one left upright is the winner!

The style of racing has deteroiated drasticaly the past 10-12 years. Tour of Quatr ????????????? C'mon???????? Will spinning through the desert really appeal to the uneducated??? UCI getting backhanders, pros having a warm 2weeks in the sun training, whille staying at 5 star hotels.
All the while cycling suffers. While blackened UCI officals get richer (yes, the same ones who turned a blind eye to doping for decades).
But we have a new generation of computer savy, cycling fans who haven't a clue about old school racing. All they know is helmet wearing robots directed by an ear piece. Radios have to go. I don't support the helmet rule( Would I wear it in Paris/Roubaix? yes! would I wear it last 5KM of an uphill race? No!).
Stupid races for conglomorate sponsors clear off!! For example we had a posting about the Tour of Battenkill. It was knocked left right and center because it doesn't have big names or sponsors. Yet that race is everything that cycling is about. Instead Qatar gets the praise because of the headlines the sponsors pay for......???

 

[ultimobici]

The style of racing has deteroiated drasticaly the past 10-12 years. Tour of Quatr ????????????? C'mon???????? Will spinning through the desert really appeal to the uneducated??? UCI getting backhanders, pros having a warm 2weeks in the sun training, whille staying at 5 star hotels.
All the while cycling suffers. While blackened UCI officals get richer (yes, the same ones who turned a blind eye to doping for decades).
But we have a new generation of computer savy, cycling fans who haven't a clue about old school racing. All they know is helmet wearing robots directed by an ear piece. Radios have to go. I don't support the helmet rule( Would I wear it in Paris/Roubaix? yes! would I wear it last 5KM of an uphill race? No!).
Stupid races for conglomorate sponsors clear off!! For example we had a posting about the Tour of Battenkill. It was knocked left right and center because it doesn't have big names or sponsors. Yet that race is everything that cycling is about. Instead Qatar gets the praise because of the headlines the sponsors pay for......???

Hear, hear!

Ban race radios
Judge races on merit not depth of pocket
Abandon current UCI expansion of calendar
Concentrate efforts on promoting core values of sport in Europe.

Baseball & Gridiron don't work outside the US
Aussie Rules doesn't work outside Australia
Top flight Football doesn't work in the US

Pro Cycling outside of Europe, the traditional heartland of cycling, rarely survives long. Missouri & Georgia didn't survive Armstrong's retirement, California will find life hard now he's gone. Within 2 years it'll be taking the same path the other two already have IMO.

WRT Argentin, I have to wonder at his comments. The Fleche Wallone 123 stil sticks in my craw. But, that said, he has a point with this comment

“The Giro, the Tour and the monumental classics are the races that matter; they’re the history of the sport and get the people out along the roadside to watch them. But the UCI is bringing everything down to a same level. That’s why they went to war with the Giro and Tour organisers.”

“Look how the rules, points and classifications have changed. It’s about income and business. The sponsors bring the cash and pay the riders but can’t have their say. They deserve more respect.”

 

[Dekker_Tifosi]

Moreno Argentin. Gewiss. As in, doped up until his ears and earned probably much of his honour list with an unfair advantage.

Fu Argentin. Shut up and dissapear

 

[icefire]

Scientific training and racing, HRMs, power meters, fine tuning of biological parameters, race radios and short ITTs in GTs: all this is leveling the field so now races are decided because of a crash, a flu, a gastric problem, an allergy, a flat, a chain drop or a break to have a snack at the back of the group.

 

[ultimobici]

Moreno Argentin. Gewiss. As in, doped up until his ears and earned probably much of his honour list with an unfair advantage.

Fu Argentin. Shut up and dissapear

While the Gewiss era is undeniable, Argentin was already a triple LBL winner, Lombardia winner and World Champion 5 years prior to EPO etc coming on the scene. You don't win that much at that level without real talent. The majority of his big successes came pre 1991 so were in an era where dope was less of an advantage.

 

[ultimobici]

Scientific training and racing, HRMs, power meters, fine tuning of biological parameters, race radios and short ITTs in GTs: all this is leveling the field so now races are decided because of a crash, a flu, a gastric problem, an allergy, a flat, a chain drop or a break to have a snack at the back of the group.

The only thing that really has a detrimental effect is the radios.

20 years ago training was similar between riders, equipment & the courses were the same near as dammit for all. Radios allow a tactically naive rider to be helped by a more astute DS to beat a tactically superior rider.

While cycling is a team sport, so is football where the manager cannot be in direct contact with the players. He tells them at the beginning and at half time what he wants. All he is allowed to do after that is shout from the touchline. Why should cycling be any different? It's worked for decades and requires a rider to be intelligent enough to read the race for himself. If he is not able to do that he has to learn to do so in order to win. We used to talk of "complete" riders but seem to just have automatons pedalling along waiting for instructions. Can't they think for themselves?

 

[boardhanger]

The only thing that really has a detrimental effect is the radios.

20 years ago training was similar between riders, equipment & the courses were the same near as dammit for all. Radios allow a tactically naive rider to be helped by a more astute DS to beat a tactically superior rider.

While cycling is a team sport, so is football where the manager cannot be in direct contact with the players. He tells them at the beginning and at half time what he wants. All he is allowed to do after that is shout from the touchline. Why should cycling be any different? It's worked for decades and requires a rider to be intelligent enough to read the race for himself. If he is not able to do that he has to learn to do so in order to win. We used to talk of "complete" riders but seem to just have automatons pedalling along waiting for instructions. Can't they think for themselves?

The radios need to be consigned to history. They have destroyed racing. The pack screams along now with info being pumped through ear pieces. A DS can say 'rite guys at 50km to go ride at 45kph then you catch the guys at such and such a place'. If an attack goes the DS direct their riders to go or not go with it. If there's a crash and someone needs a toe DS again on radio barking orders. It just too methodical these days.

 

[El Pistolero]

The radios need to be consigned to history. They have destroyed racing. The pack screams along now with info being pumped through ear pieces. A DS can say 'rite guys at 50km to go ride at 45kph then you catch the guys at such and such a place'. If an attack goes the DS direct their riders to go or not go with it. If there's a crash and someone needs a toe DS again on radio barking orders. It just too methodical these days.

There weren't any radios at the Worlds this year. While it surely wasn't a boring race, I've seen better editions this decade.

 

[simo1733]

While the Gewiss era is undeniable, Argentin was already a triple LBL winner, Lombardia winner and World Champion 5 years prior to EPO etc coming on the scene. You don't win that much at that level without real talent. The majority of his big successes came pre 1991 so were in an era where dope was less of an advantage.

Gewiss advantage was their Campag Shamals and titanium De Rosa's , At least thats what they said at the time.

 

[boardhanger]

There weren't any radios at the Worlds this year. While it surely wasn't a boring race, I've seen better editions this decade.

Point in fact.

 

[ultimobici]

Gewiss advantage was their Campag Shamals and titanium De Rosa's , At least thats what they said at the time.

Don't forget their white knitted oversocks too!

 

[Echoes]

That Contador and Andy Schleck are both equally obsessed by the July race is obvious.

Not only was Argentin an Ariostea/Gewiss doper, he's also one of the first to target a couple of races in one season.

In the late 80's, two races interested him: Liège Bastogne Liège and the Worlds, full stop.

What he says is true but he's not the right person to say it.

 

[ultimobici]

That Contador and Andy Schleck are both equally obsessed by the July race is obvious.

Not only was Argentin an Ariostea/Gewiss doper, he's also one of the first to target a couple of races in one season.

In the late 80's, two races interested him: Liège Bastogne Liège and the Worlds, full stop.

What he says is true but he's not the right person to say it.

While I agree that Argentin would be better keeping schtum on matters of doping & riders attitudes to it, his palmares do not bear out your assertion that he targeted a couple of races a season.

http://www.cyclingarchives.com/coureurfiche.php?coureurid=292http://www.cyclingbase.com/palcoureurs.php?id=2436&idtitle=1

That he targeted the classics and stages in the Giro & Tour is true. But, as can be seen in his career results in the links provided, he raced the whole season pretty much all the way up until 1990. To win the 1990 Ronde and Flech as well as placing high in MSR & Amstel is not the result of focussing on two races IMO.

The drop off in results thereafter presumeably is due to him being an early adopter with Ferrari and losing his advantage as others started on EPO. But that's another discussion for another place.

 

[boardhanger]

The fact remains cycling has become overly predictable and annoyingly boring. Team capo's now believe they have the right to dictate what colour of excretement their domestiques puts out......and most of these capo's haven't got a good palmeres. "Oh, I came 4th in the Giro so i'm Mr Big" or" I came 4th in leTour build a team around me" An all aspects of racing get 2nd fiddle. Who shows up at the Giro to train for the Tour WTF???? Argentin is correct in what he's saaying. I don't understand those who say he's wrong. A domestique takes a chance against team orders to go for the victory and he's racing in Asia for the rest of his carreer!!! What has cycling become???