from El Presidente to Franco,

[Andynonomous]

Mod comment: this thread was created by moving several posts, after a thread on Nadal spawned a side discussion on Franco. So there is no real OP. This is roughly where it all spawned from:

While I agree with your general sentiments, I doubt that adding 'Socialist' added any meaning here. Politicians from both right and left are happy to push the populist button when it suits them.

Point taken.

I used "socialist president" because I couldn't remember his name, and couldn't be bothered to look it up. Since Spain has an election coming soon, and I wasn't sure if it had happened yet, and that Spain may have had a new president by the time I wrote the comment, I had to distinguish between the outgoing president who did help Contador, and the incoming president who hasn't had the chance to be corrupt yet.

I should have just looked up the outgoing president's name.

 

[Mrs John Murphy]

To be pedantic, Spain has a Prime Minister rather than a President. Ironically, Mr Zapatero, which was also Scarponi's nickname on the Fuentes system.

The right - from the centre right to the far right - all have very strong links to different sports. Real Madrid was of course Franco's team and there are a lot of fascists who still support the team.

Samaranch before going off to run the IOC was the head of the government in Barcelona under Franco and had the blood of a lot of people on his hands. During his time in charge, the favoured method of execution was garotting. As a footnote (just in case anyone thinks the Spanish regime wasn't that bad - it is estimated that 1945-75 around 50,000 people were executed).

And guess what the first law the democratic parliament passed included? That's right a full amnesty for everyone. Given that Spain has a great deal of difficulty in dealing with its political past there is very very little hope of dealing with its doping past.

 

[hrotha]

We have a presidente, and translating it as Prime Minister is a possibility, probably the most common one, but that doesn't mean President is wrong. It just means you're trying to keep the cultural references intact and you expect the reader to figure them out, rather than trying to make the text more accessible for the reader, sacrificing the cultural flavour. Schleiermacher, bіtches.

 

[icefire]

To be pedantic, Spain has a Prime Minister rather than a President. Ironically, Mr Zapatero, which was also Scarponi's nickname on the Fuentes system.

The right - from the centre right to the far right - all have very strong links to different sports. Real Madrid was of course Franco's team and there are a lot of fascists who still support the team.

Samaranch before going off to run the IOC was the head of the government in Barcelona under Franco and had the blood of a lot of people on his hands. During his time in charge, the favoured method of execution was garotting. As a footnote (just in case anyone thinks the Spanish regime wasn't that bad - it is estimated that 1945-75 around 50,000 people were executed).

And guess what the first law the democratic parliament passed included? That's right a full amnesty for everyone. Given that Spain has a great deal of difficulty in dealing with its political past there is very very little hope of dealing with its doping past.

Just a correction. Samaranch spent most of his time during Franco's years serving in the board of a savings bank and in different offices with responsibilities on sport at local, regional and national level. His major contribution was to increase the number of sailing clubs, not a sport for the common people I would say. Before going to the IOC he was the head of a provincial government body who only manages budgets for public works and coordinating the action of local goverments. He had no control on security forces or justice at all. Seems that you are confusing Diputación Provincial (Samaranch's office) with Gobierno Civil, if you ever knew anything about the maze of Spanish government administrations and their attributions.

The rest of your post is along similar lines of confussion, historic misinformation and elaborate arguments that are mostly unnecessary, not to say wrong. The problem with doping in Spain has nothing to do with difficulties to deal with the past. It's just plain old corruption. Past, present and future corruption.

 

[Mrs John Murphy]

Just a correction. Samaranch spent most of his time during Franco's years serving in the board of a savings bank and in different offices with responsibilities on sport at local, regional and national level. His major contribution was to increase the number of sailing clubs, not a sport for the common people I would say. Before going to the IOC he was the head of a provincial government body who only manages budgets for public works and coordinating the action of local goverments. He had no control on security forces or justice at all. Seems that you are confusing Diputación Provincial (Samaranch's office) with Gobierno Civil, if you ever knew anything about the maze of Spanish government administrations and their attributions.

The rest of your post is along similar lines of confussion, historic misinformation and elaborate arguments that are mostly unnecessary, not to say wrong. The problem with doping in Spain has nothing to do with difficulties to deal with the past. It's just plain old corruption. Past, present and future corruption.

I do find it amusing when someone accuses me of getting my facts wrong and then gets their own 'facts' wrong.

You miss the general point - Spain during the transition did fail to deal with the past in a way in which punished the transgressions of the past, instead preferring to sweep them under the carpet. This in turn has created a post-Franco political and institutional culture which is unwilling to deal with past actions. This in turn has shaped the way in which Spanish institutions deal with any 'problem' that might rock the boat - whether that is corruption, or doping, or corruption that allows doping.

 

[The Hitch]

We have a presidente, and translating it as Prime Minister is a possibility, probably the most common one, but that doesn't mean President is wrong. It just means you're trying to keep the cultural references intact and you expect the reader to figure them out, rather than trying to make the text more accessible for the reader, sacrificing the cultural flavour. Schleiermacher, bіtches.

A rose by any other name is still a rose

Zapatero is the leader of the party in power rather than his own entity.

In English that fits under the definition - Prime Minister.

And of course even you guys dont call him the president of the country, just President of the Government which is of course a Prime Minister

Chess may be even worse. Recent grandmasters have been very suspicious looking. And they are permitted multiple unsupervised "medical" breaks during matches.

Its all right in chess of course because there are no major rewards.

The greatest chess player ever of course, rather than being a national hero is, treated as a national villain.

 

[khardung la]

I do find it amusing when someone accuses me of getting my facts wrong and then gets their own 'facts' wrong.

You miss the general point - Spain during the transition did fail to deal with the past in a way in which punished the transgressions of the past, instead preferring to sweep them under the carpet. This in turn has created a post-Franco political and institutional culture which is unwilling to deal with past actions. This in turn has shaped the way in which Spanish institutions deal with any 'problem' that might rock the boat - whether that is corruption, or doping, or corruption that allows doping.

Wow, I would like to see your degree in History of Spain!. Sorry to say, but with all due respect your arguments are crap to me, and you may be over-driving the complexity of the issue. As pointed by icefire your account of Samaranch' s past is wrong, and I must add that the rest is laughable, starting with the reference to fascism in todays spain or the fascism-Real Madrid relationship, the amount of people executed out of the 1936-1941 period (no matter which historician you'd choose), or the full amnesty (it is a bit more complex than that). I know what I am talking about, I am Spanish, informed and old enough.

Spain is doing poorly against doping because there is no much interest in society to deal with it. It is mostly about cultural issues, I suppose, and in that sense the Government reflects its voters profile. The same happens in the USA and I do not hear complicated references to historical issues. There NFL, NHL, NBA, Baseball, cycling, track and field etc...have huge issues with doping and it seems that the point is that many people give a **** and prefer to just enjoy the show and believe in their heroes. Well, in Spain is the same for many people, they do not want to know. the same happens in other countries, although not in, for example, France, Germany or Scandinavia.

I wonder why Spain is so easily cliched and poorly understood in the anglo world, it must be the Hemingway influence

 

[khardung la]

Point taken.

I used "socialist president" because I couldn't remember his name, and couldn't be bothered to look it up. Since Spain has an election coming soon, and I wasn't sure if it had happened yet, and that Spain may have had a new president by the time I wrote the comment, I had to distinguish between the outgoing president who did help Contador, and the incoming president who hasn't had the chance to be corrupt yet.

I should have just looked up the outgoing president's name.

There is no election coming soon necessarily, it would be 2012 if nothing unusual happens. The recent elections (15th May) took part in some regions (comunidades autonomas) and all the municipalities. The national elections and the elections in some few regions will be hold in 2012-2013.

Regarding the reference to the corruption of the President of Spain it makes me laugh if you think that he is participating in Contador's or Puerto's issues. He has more important things to do, as you may imagine. He may be responsible for the outcome by omission (even by guilty omission or by supporting Contador via twitter or in the newspapers), but from that to assume corruption there is a huge difference. It is like if I say that G.W. Bush was a corrupt president because he supported the BALCO scheme and helped Marion Jones with her doping program....come on.

 

[sniper]

There is no election coming soon necessarily, it would be 2012 if nothing unusual happens. The recent elections (15th May) took part in some regions (comunidades autonomas) and all the municipalities. The national elections and the elections in some few regions will be hold in 2012-2013.

Regarding the reference to the corruption of the President of Spain it makes me laugh if you think that he is participating in Contador's or Puerto's issues. He has more important things to do, as you may imagine. He may be responsible for the outcome by omission (even by guilty omission or by supporting Contador via twitter or in the newspapers), but from that to assume corruption there is a huge difference. It is like if I say that G.W. Bush was a corrupt president because he supported the BALCO scheme and helped Marion Jones with her doping program....come on.

it's naive to think there was no political benefit in letting AC off the hook.
and since there was political benefit, it's naive to think politicians weren't directly involved in shaping the RFEC's decision.

 

[Mrs John Murphy]

Wow, I would like to see your degree in History of Spain!. Sorry to say, but with all due respect your arguments are crap to me, and you may be over-driving the complexity of the issue. As pointed by icefire your account of Samaranch' s past is wrong, and I must add that the rest is laughable, starting with the reference to fascism in todays spain or the fascism-Real Madrid relationship, the amount of people executed out of the 1936-1941 period (no matter which historician you'd choose), or the full amnesty (it is a bit more complex than that). I know what I am talking about, I am Spanish, informed and old enough.

Can I see your degree in Spanish history? I do love the 'I'm Spanish I know' argument. As if holding the right passport makes you Jesus. I do love the assumptions about my background. All very amusing, along with your sense of victimhood.

Actually, Icefire's account of Samaranch's past was wrong and deliberately minimised Samaranch's fascism and closeness to the regime, and its pretty clear that you are out to minimise the fascist past (hence your re-writing of Samaranch and Real Madrid/Fascism) and your denial of numbers.

So all and all, you're just a nationalist apologist, all of which is fine, but it doesn't make your opinion valid or worth discussing things with you.

 

[khardung la]

it's naive to think there was no political benefit in letting AC off the hook.
and since there was political benefit, it's naive to think politicians weren't directly involved in shaping the RFEC's decision.

It is not the same saying "politicians" (as in Lissawetzki, Minister of Sport) or the President of a country (the current one or the next one).

I am not naive, this is why I assume that it is out of the direct activities of the president of a country to bother about Contador's doping to the point of getting into criminal or corrupt actions.

 

[hrotha]

It is not the same saying "politicians" (as in Lissawetzki, Minister of Sport) or the President of a country (the current one or the next one).

I am not naive, this is why I assume that it is out of the direct activities of the president of a country to bother about Contador's doping to the point of getting into criminal or corrupt actions.

It was one Twitter message. It took one minute, tops, and even then he probably had some intern do it.

 

[icefire]

Can I see your degree in Spanish history? I do love the 'I'm Spanish I know' argument. As if holding the right passport makes you Jesus. I do love the assumptions about my background. All very amusing, along with your sense of victimhood.

Actually, Icefire's account of Samaranch's past was wrong and deliberately minimised Samaranch's fascism and closeness to the regime, and its pretty clear that you are out to minimise the fascist past (hence your re-writing of Samaranch and Real Madrid/Fascism) and your denial of numbers.

So all and all, you're just a nationalist apologist, all of which is fine, but it doesn't make your opinion valid or worth discussing things with you.

I did not minimise Samaranch relationship with the regime. All I did was to enumerate the official positions he held and the attributions he had. He had no relationship or control over security or justice issues, so it is very unlikely that he had the blood of a lot of people in his hands as you claimed.

Oh wait, you may argue that anyone in an official position is complicit with all the deeds of the regime, past, present and future. You may extend as well that argument to anyone who lived in the country without complaining about the regime because their only aspirations were having a job to pay their bills. Many of them were guilty since the day they were born. End of discussion, then.

I do find it amusing when someone accuses me of getting my facts wrong and then gets their own 'facts' wrong.

You miss the general point - Spain during the transition did fail to deal with the past in a way in which punished the transgressions of the past, instead preferring to sweep them under the carpet. This in turn has created a post-Franco political and institutional culture which is unwilling to deal with past actions. This in turn has shaped the way in which Spanish institutions deal with any 'problem' that might rock the boat - whether that is corruption, or doping, or corruption that allows doping.

Oh yes, rocking the boat of corruption or doping is comparable to rocking a whole country trying to get out of an authoritarian regime that lasted almost 40 years in the middle of the worst economic crisis the world had seen after WWII. Very unfortunate analogy.

Please focus your discussion on how Spanish athletes dope and how their corrupt government and federations look away and protect them. I'm OK with that. But your historical interpretations add no value to your posts and they are inaccurate to anyone informed about the facts and events you mention. The lack of willingness to fix today's corruption problems in Spain has nothing to do with the political events and choices that led to the Amnesty Law.

 

[Mrs John Murphy]

Yeah, yeah, you're just another apologist for the regime, the amnesty and the subsequent retardation of Spanish politics and society. Funny how the Greeks could manage to punish their old regime as could much of Latin America and most of Eastern Europe - all of whom also had economic problems, social problems and political problems during their transitions. You're doing a good job of proving Vroomen right about nationalists.

While he wasn't Carrero Blanco, Samaranch was no minor functionary, he was no minor civil servant or businessman removed from the regime, he was no innocent bystander and he certainly wasn't an ordinary citizen trying to make his way under difficult circumstances.

He was a fully paid up fascist. He was a member of the Cortes, he was minister of sport and was president of the governing council of Barcelona, all under Franco. He was active in the regime for well over 20 years and used it as a useful springboard after the amnesty for his post Franco career when he should have been in jail.

Samaranch and friends doing some arm exercises in 1974

Samaranch in uniform with Franco. No blood on those hands and clearly not a fascist.

 

[sniper]

...
Samaranch and friends doing some arm exercises in 1974...

phuaahuahuaa.a.....
(that's me, spitting my cappuccino all over my laptop)

by the way, your entire post is a +1.

Some apologist nationalist posters in disguise are clearly having a hard time taking criticism.

 

[zastomito]

Yeah, yeah, you're just another apologist for the regime, the amnesty and the subsequent retardation of Spanish politics and society. Funny how the Greeks could manage to punish their old regime as could much of Latin America and most of Eastern Europe - all of whom also had economic problems, social problems and political problems during their transitions. You're doing a good job of proving Vroomen right about nationalists.

While he wasn't Carrero Blanco, Samaranch was no minor functionary, he was no minor civil servant or businessman removed from the regime, he was no innocent bystander and he certainly wasn't an ordinary citizen trying to make his way under difficult circumstances.

He was a fully paid up fascist. He was a member of the Cortes, he was minister of sport and was president of the governing council of Barcelona, all under Franco. He was active in the regime for well over 20 years and used it as a useful springboard after the amnesty for his post Franco career when he should have been in jail.

Just pathetic. And absolutely incorrect.

 

[Mrs John Murphy]

My, the fascist apologists are out in force today. It's almost a phalanx.

 

[khardung la]

My, the fascist apologists are out in force today. It's almost a phalanx.

I am surprised that you are calling a few of us fascist apologists so freely, probably you should stop insulting. It is pretty weird actually, please stop doing that.

If all the Spaniards of the time who saluted like Samaranch would have to be in the jail, then Spain would have had 90% of its people in the jail by 1975. Just have a look at the crowds in Madrid, Valencia or Barcelona when Franco was giving speeches or celebrating the anniversary of the victory of his army in the Civil War.

Does it mean that all those people were fascists or liked Franco?? Obviously not, just check the sign of the Governments when democracy was installed (CDS(center) and then PSOE(socialist party)).

Just for you to understand the issue: in the university the students had very often to participate in activities of the "movement", where saluting the way you showed was absolutely compulsory. It is a well-known issue in Spain that many politicians during the democratic years, disregarding if on the right or the left, hold high positions in the Franco regime or are descendants of prominent people in the Franco regime. That includes people in the right and the left. Those who stood against Franco and for example went to jail were not many, most part of the people just accommodated to the regime and got a job paying their bills. This is how it works..., probably the same could be said about the Germans during the 1930s, the Russians in the late 1900s, the Italians during Mussolini or currently the Cubans.

 

[hrotha]

My, the fascist apologists are out in force today. It's almost a phalanx.

Calling a Spaniard a "fascist apologist" is not something you should do lightly. Someone disagrees with you over the role of a public figure in the regime - ironic that's enough to qualify as a fascist in your book.

 

[Benotti69]

I am surprised that you are calling a few of us fascist apologists so freely, probably you should stop insulting. It is pretty weird actually, please stop doing that.

If all the Spaniards of the time who saluted like Samaranch would have to be in the jail, then Spain would have had 90% of its people in the jail by 1975. Just have a look at the crowds in Madrid, Valencia or Barcelona when Franco was giving speeches or celebrating the anniversary of the victory of his army in the Civil War.

Does it mean that all those people were fascists or liked Franco?? Obviously not, just check the sign of the Governments when democracy was installed (CDS(center) and then PSOE(socialist party)).

Just for you to understand the issue: in the university the students had very often to participate in activities of the "movement", where saluting the way you showed was absolutely compulsory. It is a well-known issue in Spain that many politicians during the democratic years, disregarding if on the right or the left, hold high positions in the Franco regime or are descendants of prominent people in the Franco regime. That includes people in the right and the left. Those who stood against Franco and for example went to jail were not many, most part of the people just accommodated to the regime and got a job paying their bills. This is how it works..., probably the same could be said about the Germans during the 1930s, the Russians in the late 1900s, the Italians during Mussolini or currently the Cubans.

You are very naive. Leni Riefenstahl invented the visual propaganda for the nazis that has been used by every government since. Camera angles to exaggerate crowds, hand out flags, make everyone act the way they need to make the government look good, rent a crowd etc.....

 

[zastomito]

The thing is, if you are not Spaniard what's it to you if they had a fascist regime as long as that regime hasn't threatened your rights in any way? That is the internal matter of Spain and its inhabitants.
Also, being from Eastern Europe myself I can tell you that you are completely wrong.

 

[rhubroma]

I am surprised that you are calling a few of us fascist apologists so freely, probably you should stop insulting. It is pretty weird actually, please stop doing that.

If all the Spaniards of the time who saluted like Samaranch would have to be in the jail, then Spain would have had 90% of its people in the jail by 1975. Just have a look at the crowds in Madrid, Valencia or Barcelona when Franco was giving speeches or celebrating the anniversary of the victory of his army in the Civil War.

Does it mean that all those people were fascists or liked Franco?? Obviously not, just check the sign of the Governments when democracy was installed (CDS(center) and then PSOE(socialist party)).

Just for you to understand the issue: in the university the students had very often to participate in activities of the "movement", where saluting the way you showed was absolutely compulsory. It is a well-known issue in Spain that many politicians during the democratic years, disregarding if on the right or the left, hold high positions in the Franco regime or are descendants of prominent people in the Franco regime. That includes people in the right and the left. Those who stood against Franco and for example went to jail were not many, most part of the people just accommodated to the regime and got a job paying their bills. This is how it works..., probably the same could be said about the Germans during the 1930s, the Russians in the late 1900s, the Italians during Mussolini or currently the Cubans.

As far as the Italians go, and if I understand your post correctly there may be a similar phenomenon in Spain, there is a trend among the center right to take a far to accommodating line in regards to what Mussolini and the fascists did and represented for Italy leading up to and during WWII; which needs to be put into a broader historical revisionist trend that is, of course, disgusting.

These folks would like to put the so called "murderous crimes" of the partigiani on the same level of those committed by the black shirts during the regime and afterward in the Republica di Salò. Never mind that the one killed in the name of a liberation movement to end the oppression of tyranny, which also brought Italy fatally into a horrific alliance with Hitler and the Germans; while the others repressed and killed in the name of taking liberty and dignity from all those who would not assist without resistance to the brutality of their inexcusable injustices and crimes.

Any modern democratic state, must simply and categorically reject all forms of fascism, past and present, and relegate its ideology and memory to the graveyard of history.

Anything less, especially when disguised under a scandalous form of historical revisionism, is merely appalling and grotesque.

Also because the right should always hold in check and be wary of its latent tendency towards fascism, whenever it runs out of political ideas to work with under the constitutional limits of democracy.

 

[The Hitch]

The thing is, if you are not Spaniard what's it to you if they had a fascist regime as long as that regime hasn't threatened your rights in any way? That is the internal matter of Spain and its inhabitants.
Also, being from Eastern Europe myself I can tell you that you are completely wrong.

Where in EE are you from?

would i be right to guess Serbia?

I think its wrong to put down Francos facism as an internal matter because the majority of Spain had no say in it, it was enforced on them by a small minority and most most importantly, it was brought onto them through very heavy outside interference in the first place.

Anyway, and Im talking in general rather than about Spain here, but for me it does matter if other countries have a dictatorship because I sympathise with the poor, the unfortunate. It doesnt matter if someone was born in my border or not, I cant just close my eyes when i hear of the horrors of say North Korea for example.

 

[Mrs John Murphy]

Calling a Spaniard a "fascist apologist" is not something you should do lightly. Someone disagrees with you over the role of a public figure in the regime - ironic that's enough to qualify as a fascist in your book.

The flip-side is that other people shouldn't accuse people of being anti-Spanish etc, if someone is critical or people disagree with someones interpretation of events. And there are a lot of Franco apologists out there, the last poll I saw had around 15% of the population having a positive view of the Franco regime.

If someone is deliberately trying to minimise an actor's role in a regime, or to minimise the crimes of that regime rather than discussing then they are acting as an apologist. It might be a legitimate point that they are trying to make, but if they are accusing the person they disagree with of being anti-Spanish etc etc then it makes it moves into polemic and apologia.

If they are doing it for the Franco regime and Franco era officials then they are fascist apologists. If they were defending, justifying and minimising the crimes of the Republicans, my response would be that they are Republican apologists. If people were defending Pinochet, Mussolini, Milosevic, Mladic, Tudjman or Ante Gotovina, Iliescu, the Greek Junta, Argentine death squads, Communist era officials or members of the KGB, or officials from any of those regimes, my response would be the same.

Trying to explain away, minimise and justify Samaranch's actions is apologia. Samaranch was not an ordinary citizen, while not in the inner-circle he was a member of the elite and a senior government official.

To get back to the issue - there should have been lustration in Spain and a purging of officials. If say the Czech Lustration law had been applied in Spain he would have been out of a job. As it was Samaranch was protected and promoted, which was wrong imo. Now, I do think (as do others) that the culture of amnesty and amnesia that permeates Spanish political and institutional culture that stems from the transition and in particular the amnesty law. Aguilar-Fernandez points out that no one at the time noticed the two offending paragraphs in the Amnesty Law referring to Franco era officials. She also has an excellent analysis of the consequences:

in the Spanish case: the ideological heirs of the dictatorship ended up benefiting much more from the agreement not to stir up the past than those who had directly suffered retaliation during the dictatorship.
It was true that, during the war, both parties in conflict committed intolerable abuses (although some had been prosecuted as a result and others had not). However, throughout the dictatorship, a clear distinction was made between victims and aggressors. On the other hand, those who benefited from the veil used to cover the past in the political sphere were mainly those who had held posts of political responsibility under Franco and those who supported his dictatorship. (Aguilar, 2007)

 

[zastomito]

Where in EE are you from?

would i be right to guess Serbia?

I think its wrong to put down Francos facism as an internal matter because the majority of Spain had no say in it, it was enforced on them by a small minority and most most importantly, it was brought onto them through very heavy outside interference in the first place.

Anyway, and Im talking in general rather than about Spain here, but for me it does matter if other countries have a dictatorship because I sympathise with the poor, the unfortunate. It doesnt matter if someone was born in my border or not, I cant just close my eyes when i hear of the horrors of say North Korea for example.

That is a very thin rope you are walking. Mainly because everything you know about political structure and certain events in some foreign country is presented to you by your country's media. And that is usually with an agenda.
Yes, I am from Serbia and I can tell you that in last 60 years nothing changed. Today in Serbia rulers are children and grandchildren of the communist that ruled from 1945-1990. And the trend will continue.