Front wheel building

[oldborn]

I am sure that here are some pros wheelbuider and some good amateurs as well. What is yours favorite way to lace per example front MTB 32 hole wheel. 3 cross pattern?

I just lace mine (replacing new no name hub with Deore) and find this working good:

1. determine spoke lenght (disc, non -disc side) and lube threads.
2. Position the hub, disc side up
3. Put first 8 disc side spokes in hub (there was no logo on hub to be visible through valve hole, and stickers are both side)
4. Put first spoke in a rim hole, right left to the valve hole. Then every 4th hole. 5 turns each nipple
5. Put another 8 spokes of disc side in hub, and follow under-under-over pattern.
6. Rotate hub and rim, valve hole in front of you.
7. Put non disc side 8 spokes in hub, in largest triangle formed by disc side spokes.
8. Locate first spoke (disc drive side) to the right of the valve hole, follow it to the hub and find oposite hub hole.
9. Put that spoke in the rim hole which is first left of the valve hole. Put other spokes in every 4th rim hole.
10. Put last 8 spokes, and follow under-under-over pattern.

It works well again. I am used to that way. Happy to hear another methods.

 

[mad black]

There are a few different ways of lacing and they all work. I prefer inserting all spokes for the disc side at once (alternating insde and outside spokes - of course). Then simply cross a head-inside spoke (pointing forward in rotation direction) with the 5th spoke in rotation direction, place spoke cross into rim starting from the valve hole. Continue to work around the wheel in similar fashion until back at the valve hole. - Same procedure for the other side making sure that for a front wheel the spoke pattern is symmetrical on both side.

I'd just like to emphazise the importance to have the head-inside spoke being pulled (i.e. pointing forward in rotation direction) on the disc side. This is because the introduced braking forces have to pull the spoke for optimum wheel stability and distribution of forces. (If the head inside spoke was pointing backwards the spoke would be pushed into the rim thus loosing all tension and allowing the spoke pattern to move.)

 

[oldborn]

There are a few different ways of lacing and they all work. I prefer inserting all spokes for the disc side at once (alternating insde and outside spokes - of course). Then simply cross a head-inside spoke (pointing forward in rotation direction) with the 5th spoke in rotation direction, place spoke cross into rim starting from the valve hole. Continue to work around the wheel in similar fashion until back at the valve hole. - Same procedure for the other side making sure that for a front wheel the spoke pattern is symmetrical on both side.

I'd just like to emphazise the importance to have the head-inside spoke being pulled (i.e. pointing forward in rotation direction) on the disc side. This is because the introduced braking forces have to pull the spoke for optimum wheel stability and distribution of forces. (If the head inside spoke was pointing backwards the spoke would be pushed into the rim thus loosing all tension and allowing the spoke pattern to move.)

Prety much the same, by me challenge and most common mistake is to determine non disc or drive side front wheel spoke, which gonna make that parallel spoke pattern around valve hole together with non-drive side spokes.
I noticed before couple of months ago on my kids chinarello 20" bike that flaw.

 

[on3m@n@rmy]

I've built several wheels, front & rear. But I fear I may be over-tensioning the spokes. Do any of you use a tension meter? I've just been using the spoke-pluck method and listen for the tone.

 

[oldborn]

I've built several wheels, front & rear. But I fear I may be over-tensioning the spokes. Do any of you use a tension meter? I've just been using the spoke-pluck method and listen for the tone.

It is interesting, i have been watching old mechanic and no sign of tension meter for a mile, maybe he is used to do without it.
Personaly i do not use it just like you, i just play on spokes like on harp

 

[Bustedknuckle]

I've built several wheels, front & rear. But I fear I may be over-tensioning the spokes. Do any of you use a tension meter? I've just been using the spoke-pluck method and listen for the tone.

That may help to make the tension close to even but it's not a way to test for tension amounts unless you are very musical and have a chart for different tones for different gauges of spokes.

I use a DT dial tension meter.

 

[on3m@n@rmy]

That may help to make the tension close to even but it's not a way to test for tension amounts unless you are very musical and have a chart for different tones for different gauges of spokes.

I use a DT dial tension meter.

I've noticed radial cracks at the spoke nipple holes of the rim on some of my older wheels. There seems to be some pretty good info at the link below, though I've not used a tension meter yet.
Park Tool Wheel Tension Measurement
The Park Tool isn't that spendy ($50-$60)
Picture of the Park TM-1:

But the DT dial a whopping $400+
Picutre of DT dial tension meter:

I don't think I want to spend $400+, but wouldn't mind $60 for the Park. Anyone have any experience with the Park TM-1?

 

[RDV4ROUBAIX]

They all do the same thing to about the same degree of accuracy no matter if you spend fifty or five hundred bucks, all comes down to what feels good in your hand. I use this one....

 

[veganrob]

They all do the same thing to about the same degree of accuracy no matter if you spend fifty or five hundred bucks, all comes down to what feels good in your hand. I use this one....

Agreed. i use the DT tensionometer and have used the Wheelsmith in the past but any will help to build a better wheel than none at all.

 

[Bustedknuckle]

They all do the same thing to about the same degree of accuracy no matter if you spend fifty or five hundred bucks, all comes down to what feels good in your hand. I use this one....

Probably the best one.

 

[on3m@n@rmy]

That FSA (at $220 to $250) is probably in the upper end of my price range, although there's not $200 worth of parts in any of these. Dang marketers...

Thanks for the input on the tension meters everone.

 

[dsut4392]

I'd just like to emphazise the importance to have the head-inside spoke being pulled (i.e. pointing forward in rotation direction) on the disc side. This is because the ...snip

This seems to come up a bit, so I don't mean to pick on mad black specifically...

Why treat spokes on the disc side differently from spokes on the non-disc side on a front wheel? Surely people can't be thinking that there is significant flex/'wind-up' in a hub shell? Assuming symmetrical dishing and equal flange heights, torque at the hub should be essentially identical left and right, regardless of which side the disc is on.

I can understand that spokes on a rear wheel are tensioned differently because of wheel dish (and resulting differences in spoke length between 'drive' side and non drive side), and from this perspective it makes sense to refer to consider spoking patterns differently, but I can't believe it has anything to do with the torque applied through the chain.

If I'm wrong on this one, please point me towards some testing that demonstrates elastic deformation of the hub shell...

 

[oldborn]

This seems to come up a bit, so I don't mean to pick on mad black specifically...

Why treat spokes on the disc side differently from spokes on the non-disc side on a front wheel? Surely people can't be thinking that there is significant flex/'wind-up' in a hub shell? Assuming symmetrical dishing and equal flange heights, torque at the hub should be essentially identical left and right, regardless of which side the disc is on.

I can understand that spokes on a rear wheel are tensioned differently because of wheel dish (and resulting differences in spoke length between 'drive' side and non drive side), and from this perspective it makes sense to refer to consider spoking patterns differently, but I can't believe it has anything to do with the torque applied through the chain.

If I'm wrong on this one, please point me towards some testing that demonstrates elastic deformation of the hub shell...

English is not mine first language, or second even third, so please let me quote some article about Time wheels:

"The primary engineering principles applied to the Time Hi-Tense wheels are (as you might guess) high spoke tension, and reduced spoke bracing angle on the non-drive side of the rear hub.

Usually, the drive and non-drive spoke bracing angles in a rear wheel are unequal, and this inequality requires different spoke tension on either side of the wheel. Due to cogset width, the hub’s drive side flange is closer to the center of the hub, which reduces the angle of the spokes bracing the rim. Drive side spokes, viewed from behind the wheel, trace a path to the rim that’s more vertical (less angled to the outside). Therefore they have to be tighter both to support the rim and provide lateral truing force.

Non-drive spokes have a higher angle out to their hub flange, which is farther outboard of the hub centerline, and thus require less tension to create equal pulling force against the drive side spokes. The net result is unequal tension on either side of the wheel, and a wheel that’s typically not as strong or stable as one with equal spoke bracing angle and tension on each side.

Their approach is to move the non-drive hub flange inboard, toward the hub centerline, and thereby create a more equal bracing angle with the drive side spokes. (Actually, the Hi-Tense non-drive spoke anchor points at the hub are not in a flange per se, but rather thread directly in to the carbon/aluminum hub shell).

I think that is logical.

RDV4ROUBAIX, and Bustedknuckle what do you think about those http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H_q69F4HuOo Pro-lite guys? They are diligence, never heard before about them.

 

[Bustedknuckle]

This seems to come up a bit, so I don't mean to pick on mad black specifically...

Why treat spokes on the disc side differently from spokes on the non-disc side on a front wheel? Surely people can't be thinking that there is significant flex/'wind-up' in a hub shell? Assuming symmetrical dishing and equal flange heights, torque at the hub should be essentially identical left and right, regardless of which side the disc is on.

I can understand that spokes on a rear wheel are tensioned differently because of wheel dish (and resulting differences in spoke length between 'drive' side and non drive side), and from this perspective it makes sense to refer to consider spoking patterns differently, but I can't believe it has anything to do with the torque applied through the chain.

If I'm wrong on this one, please point me towards some testing that demonstrates elastic deformation of the hub shell...

It really doesn't matter how you lace as long as the build is proper. Tension on the front disc side needs to be 100-105 KGF, just like the right side of the rear. The torque of the disc has the same effect on the spokes regardless of whether it's laced inside pulling or outside pulling.

 

[dsut4392]

It really doesn't matter how you lace as long as the build is proper. Tension on the front disc side needs to be 100-105 KGF, just like the right side of the rear. The torque of the disc has the same effect on the spokes regardless of whether it's laced inside pulling or outside pulling.

What I'm saying is that I don't believe on a front wheel (symmetrically dished, equal height hub flanges, equal length spokes) that there would be any difference in torque on the left (disc side) vs right (non disc side), hence there should not be any difference in spoke tension. i.e. braking force applied through the disc is distributed equally across left and right side spokes.

Similarly I don't believe that on a rear wheel the fact that drive is applied through the left side has anything to do with differential spoking requirements on left vs right, but that this is solely due to the dishing of the wheel.

 

[Bustedknuckle]

What I'm saying is that I don't believe on a front wheel (symmetrically dished, equal height hub flanges, equal length spokes) that there would be any difference in torque on the left (disc side) vs right (non disc side), hence there should not be any difference in spoke tension. i.e. braking force applied through the disc is distributed equally across left and right side spokes.

Similarly I don't believe that on a rear wheel the fact that drive is applied through the left side has anything to do with differential spoking requirements on left vs right, but that this is solely due to the dishing of the wheel.

There isn't but with a disc front hub, the spoke lengths, via center to flange, are not the same..Gotta put the rotor somewhere, that moves the flange in.

Dishing of the wheel makes for tension, left and rtight, as you mentioned, with a disc front.

 

[oldborn]

There isn't but with a disc front hub, the spoke lengths, via center to flange, are not the same..Gotta put the rotor somewhere, that moves the flange in.

Dishing of the wheel makes for tension, left and rtight, as you mentioned, with a disc front.

Why spokes on disc MTB wheels are different lenghts i mean L side are longer, on some R side longer, and on some even, or i get something wrong?
I understand that should be place for disc, as for cassete on rear wheel.

 

[RDV4ROUBAIX]

Why spokes on disc MTB wheels are different lenghts i mean L side are longer, on some R side longer, and on some even, or i get something wrong?
I understand that should be place for disc, as for cassete on rear wheel.

Depends on hub flange diameter, some mfg's do a larger flange on the disk side. If flanges are the same there's still a 1-2mm difference in spoke length, usually made up with dishing same lengths if in the 1mm range, 2mm difference would require 2 lengths just like with a rear build.

 

[oldborn]

Depends on hub flange diameter, some mfg's do a larger flange on the disk side. If flanges are the same there's still a 1-2mm difference in spoke length, usually made up with dishing same lengths if in the 1mm range, 2mm difference would require 2 lengths just like with a rear build.

Thanks mate!
Does some mfg s do a smaller flange on the disk side, i mean we should use then longer spokes. I notice it with Mavic wheels Crossmax disc that L spokes are 273 and R Spokes 255.
When exactly Left disk spokes are longer than Right ones?

 

[RDV4ROUBAIX]

Thanks mate!
Does some mfg s do a smaller flange on the disk side, i mean we should use then longer spokes. I notice it with Mavic wheels Crossmax disc that L spokes are 273 and R Spokes 255.
When exactly Left disk spokes are longer than Right ones?

you answered your own question, when the L flange is smaller than the right.

 

[oldborn]

you answered your own question, when the L flange is smaller than the right.

Thanks mate!!! Now i get it.