Frozen Ti pedal spindle in Record carbon crank - help!

[winkybiker]

I have a Ti Keo pedal spindle frozen in the NDS carbon Record crank. I'm soaking in WD40 and wailing on it (as much as I dare) with an impact driver but still no luck. Do I ratchet up the violence until it comes free or something breaks? Any other ideas?

Thanks.

 

[Giuseppe Magnetico]

If you don't mind ruining the spindle find a bolt extractor that fits and turn s l o w l y. Do you have access to a bench vice? That would be ideal.

 

[avanti]

It has been a while since I worked on Ti-Carbon interfaces (in Aerospace) but as I recall these two materials should not be in contact otherwise galvanic corrosion and stress cracking can occur. You parts may be permanently "welded" together. I have doubts about WD-40 freeing the parts in this case.

 

[BroDeal]

It has been a while since I worked on Ti-Carbon interfaces (in Aerospace) but as I recall these two materials should not be in contact otherwise galvanic corrosion and stress cracking can occur. You parts may be permanently "welded" together. I have doubts about WD-40 freeing the parts in this case.

I think the issue here is the OP put the TI spindle into the crank's AL pedal insert without anti-seize compound, so the spindle is "welded" to the insert. Those inserts are epoxied in, so the crank might be destroyed in the process of trying to unscrew the spindle.

Calfee uses--or at least used to use--ti dropouts, instead of aluminum ones like most makers for their frames, to prevent galvanic corrosion. Others that use aluminum insulate it from the carbon with something. There was a rash of galvanic corrosion issues by many manufacturers in the early days of carbon frames.

 

[avanti]

Just a quick thought (and possibly a dumb question) - are you trying to unsrcew the pedal in the correct direction (LH or RH)?

 

[winkybiker]

Just a quick thought (and possibly a dumb question) - are you trying to unsrcew the pedal in the correct direction (LH or RH)?

Fair question. Checked the direction many times (each time before I start working on it). Left hand crank, so un-screwing anti-clockwise from the allen key side. That is, top towards the back of the bike to unscrew.

Yes, inadequate anti-sieze is likely the issue. Not sure if the insert is alloy or stainless. If alloy, it will fail before the spindle. If stainless, I risk ripping it right out of the carbon as I ramp up the force.

Another option would be to just rebuild the pedal in-situ and get a few more years out of the crank and pedals.

Third option: It is a second (compact) crankset so I can also just use the left-hand crank off the regular (non-compact) crankset when (if) I switch back to compact.

I had another thought when out riding. What about a drop or two of liquid nitrogen in the hole to shrink the spindle relative to the insert?

Thanks for the replies so far....

 

[BroDeal]

A labor intensive method might be to cut the spindle off, leaving a few millimeters sticking out of the crank. Drill through the allen wrench hole so the spindle is a cylinder. Then use a rat tail file to carefully make a notch down to the threads. Notches in two locations might be required. Eventually the spindle could be crushed using a vice-grip on the part of it that sticks out from the crank.

 

[avanti]

A labor intensive method might be to cut the spindle off, leaving a few millimeters sticking out of the crank. Drill through the allen wrench hole so the spindle is a cylinder. Then use a rat tail file to carefully make a notch down to the threads. Notches in two locations might be required. Eventually the spindle could be crushed using a vice-grip on the part of it that sticks out from the crank.

Machining away the spindle came to my mind but machining Ti usually requires special tools.

 

[winkybiker]

A labor intensive method might be to cut the spindle off, leaving a few millimeters sticking out of the crank. Drill through the allen wrench hole so the spindle is a cylinder. Then use a rat tail file to carefully make a notch down to the threads. Notches in two locations might be required. Eventually the spindle could be crushed using a vice-grip on the part of it that sticks out from the crank.

Yeah, I thought of grinding it out with Dremel or a carbide burr. Same idea, really. Do I wreck the pedal or the crank? If I can't save both, that is the question.

 

[veganrob]

Ammonia

Never tried it with ti-carbon interface but it works every time with removing frozen BB or alum seatpost from ti bike

Soak rag with ammonia, wrap it around affected area, put plastic bag aound that and give it a couple days then try.

 

[Master50]

WD-40 is not necessarily the best penetrating oil for this. You have an aluminum/ ti seizure and I believe an ammonia based penetrator will be most effective but a great caution. Ammonia and aluminum are not friendly so if you leave too much ammonia on aluminum you will loose some of the aluminum which means you may destroy the aluminum insert in the crank arm.

Does the pedal axle have to be removed? Some pedals can be rebuilt without having to take the pedal off and for travel it might be just as easy to remove the cranks? Still is not a long term solution but you can probably use the same crank for a long time before the next new crank comes along.

 

[avanti]

I think the issue here is the OP put the TI spindle into the crank's AL pedal insert ...............

I'm not familier with the crank design but depending on the dimensions of the Al pedal insert the insert could be trepanned and a threaded steel insert installed. The spindle might be saved by cutting away the remaimining aluminum.
However machining costs may be mor expensive than replacing crank & spindle.

 

[laziali]

Sounds like you still have the crank on the bike which makes removal much harder.

If you haven't already, remove the crank, carefully clamp in bench-vice (you will need to use some surface padding to prevent clamping damage and then apply evenly increasing force with a cheater-sleeve over Allen-wrench.

***Word of Caution #1 - I have managed to break an Allen key doing this and cut my hand quite deeply on the jagged edge as it broke away, so make sure you get the sleeve the whole way down the wrench and wear gloves and eye protection

Word of Caution #2 - It's going to be pot luck as to whether the bond between the spindle and the insert is weaker than the bond between the insert and the crank. If its the latter and you go to hard, your crank will be cactus.

 

[StyrbjornSterki]

Another vote for ammonia.

WD-40 was created as a water dispersant, hence the "WD" title. It does contain petroleum distillates, and therefore will posses a measure of penetrating ability, and lubricity, but neither is its strong suit. The best penetrating oil I have tried is called PB Blaster.

But in this case, lubrication isn't necessarily what's called for. What's needed is something to break up the corrosive 'bonding' the galvanic action has caused. For this, master shadetree mechanics long have used Coca-Cola, for its mild phosphoric acid content. Except where titanium is involved. In the case of frozen Ti parts, ammonia is the mutt's.

But you needn't bathe it in ammonia for it to work. If the capillary action is working, a small amount placed over the joint will be drawn in and break down the corrosion. If it isn't working, submerging it won't help. For that, veganrob's ammonia-soaked rag sounds quite practical.

Don't forget to rinse with plenty of water to stop the ammonia's action.

 

[winkybiker]

Sounds like you still have the crank on the bike which makes removal much harder.

If you haven't already, remove the crank, carefully clamp in bench-vice (you will need to use some surface padding to prevent clamping damage and then apply evenly increasing force with a cheater-sleeve over Allen-wrench.

***Word of Caution #1 - I have managed to break an Allen key doing this and cut my hand quite deeply on the jagged edge as it broke away, so make sure you get the sleeve the whole way down the wrench and wear gloves and eye protection

Word of Caution #2 - It's going to be pot luck as to whether the bond between the spindle and the insert is weaker than the bond between the insert and the crank. If its the latter and you go to hard, your crank will be cactus.

Thanks.

No, it's off the bike. Tried clamping the allen key in a vice and using the crank as the lever. Got to silly force and no luck. Then tried using an impact wrench. Still nothing. I might just rebuild the pedal on the spindle. Or give the ammonia a try.

 

[winkybiker]

Another vote for ammonia.

WD-40 was created as a water dispersant, hence the "WD" title. It does contain petroleum distillates, and therefore will posses a measure of penetrating ability, and lubricity, but neither is its strong suit. The best penetrating oil I have tried is called PB Blaster.

But in this case, lubrication isn't necessarily what's called for. What's needed is something to break up the corrosive 'bonding' the galvanic action has caused. For this, master shadetree mechanics long have used Coca-Cola, for its mild phosphoric acid content. Except where titanium is involved. In the case of frozen Ti parts, ammonia is the mutt's.

But you needn't bathe it in ammonia for it to work. If the capillary action is working, a small amount placed over the joint will be drawn in and break down the corrosion. If it isn't working, submerging it won't help. For that, veganrob's ammonia-soaked rag sounds quite practical.

Don't forget to rinse with plenty of water to stop the ammonia's action.

Thanks. I'll take all that on board.

 

[laziali]

Thanks.

No, it's off the bike. Tried clamping the allen key in a vice and using the crank as the lever. Got to silly force and no luck. Then tried using an impact wrench. Still nothing. I might just rebuild the pedal on the spindle. Or give the ammonia a try.

Bugga, looks like experimenting with a small amount of ammonia is the way to go then. Good luck!