General Doping Thread.

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Look at Roger Rivière, right? While I think it more likely that he simply overcooked it trying to keep up with a better descender, anti-doping mythology has it he crashed cause of the drugs he was using to try and get over the climbs.

On the prevalence of anti-depressants: Riis talks about trying different drugs to find what worked for him and that is true of doping in general. Without wanting to get into the myth of the super-responder, not everything works the same for everyone. I don't think Prozac is going to help someone who's naturally an Energizer bunny of energy and in fact would probably have a negative effect on them.

On anti-depressants in general: some, like DHEA, are used not for their mental health impact.
 
Look at Roger Rivière, right? While I think it more likely that he simply overcooked it trying to keep up with a better descender, anti-doping mythology has it he crashed cause of the drugs he was using to try and get over the climbs.

On the prevalence of anti-depressants: Riis talks about trying different drugs to find what worked for him and that is true of doping in general. Without wanting to get into the myth of the super-responder, not everything works the same for everyone. I don't think Prozac is going to help someone who's naturally an Energizer bunny of energy and in fact would probably have a negative effect on them.

On anti-depressants in general: some, like DHEA, are used not for their mental health impact.
Yes, although I don't think DHEA is an antidepressant medication per se, but more a steroid that can have antidepressant effect.

There are some antidepressants that are more athlete friendly (eg Prozac or Zoloft versus Paxil). But as you noted, different people have different reactions and side effects.
 
I agree. Also, not overdoing stimulants (eg caffeine)! I remember doing some cross country races and criteriums ... Some of the guys at the beginning of the race were very jacked up, probably a few too many espressos! Anyhow, they were able to take off like lightning bolts and put the hurt on everyone right away, but then they crashed early on because they were so jittery they just couldn't handle the technical aspects.

A note about antidepressants - given how hard professional sport is, and specifically how hard cycling is, I would not be surprised if prescription antidepressant use in the peloton was very high (i.e. higher than in the general population) ... Not sure if there's any data clarifying that? For some people, such medication might indeed be performance enhancing if it makes the right difference in their mood (and not lead to weight gain); additionally, for some select people there are other benefits, such as weight loss or some extent of increased pain tolerance. This said, certainly not a magic bullet, as some people find their performance decreases when taking such medication.
Wasn't Bjarne Riis known for also using a pretty high dose of Prozac to deal with the mental aspect?
 
Wasn't Bjarne Riis known for also using a pretty high dose of Prozac to deal with the mental aspect?

Although up to 8 pills would be 160mg Fluoxetine. That sounds incredible high.

Sounds like Riis actually targeted the emotional blunting overdosing Prozac creates.

It's also possible to get Prozac kicking with caffeine though.

No wonder he suffers from depression nowadays. Probably ruined his serotonine transmitters.
 
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Although up to 8 pills would be 160mg Fluoxetine. That sounds incredible high.

Sounds like Riis actually targeted the emotional blunting overdosing Prozac creates.

It's also possible to get Prozac kicking with caffeine though.

No wonder he suffers from depression nowadays. Probably ruined his serotonine transmitters.
Why am I not surprised about Bjarne overdosing meds to the max?
 
Why am I not surprised about Bjarne overdosing meds to the max?
I believe that dosage was actually quoted from Manzano? And if I recall the article correctly, Manzano also says a bunch of ridiculous things that fall more in line with placebo effect than what the medication would actually do. He sounds like a ... character.

Edit - having had a quick scan of the article again, we don't actually know how much Prozac Manzano was taking. Eight pills tells us nothing if we don't know the dosage per pill. It very well could have been 20 mg per pill, but it also could have been 10 or 40. Obviously at extreme dosage ranges who knows what the effects were. But he obviously was trying to affect something more than his mood
 
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Although up to 8 pills would be 160mg Fluoxetine. That sounds incredible high.

Sounds like Riis actually targeted the emotional blunting overdosing Prozac creates.

It's also possible to get Prozac kicking with caffeine though.

No wonder he suffers from depression nowadays. Probably ruined his serotonine transmitters.
This is just stupid. SSRI effect is minimum after response dosage, what you get is serotoninergic syndrome that takes you to hospital and maybe ICU. The only doping usage I see is to help loosing 2 or 3 kg, although I don't exepct it to happen in professional cyclists. And you only need between 20 and 40 mg.
 
This is just stupid. SSRI effect is minimum after response dosage, what you get is serotoninergic syndrome that takes you to hospital and maybe ICU. The only doping usage I see is to help loosing 2 or 3 kg, although I don't exepct it to happen in professional cyclists. And you only need between 20 and 40 mg.
Yeah I know. Hence why I said that 160mg sounds way too high. Didn't Pantani actually die from serotoninergic syndrome due to the combination of coke & citalopram?

Prozac doesn't really give you better focus either does it? It's even contra indicated for people suffering from attention disorders.
 
Yeah I know. Hence why I said that 160mg sounds way too high. Didn't Pantani actually die from serotoninergic syndrome due to the combination of coke & citalopram?

Prozac doesn't really give you better focus either does it? It's even contra indicated for people suffering from attention disorders.
Like any such medications, whether it improves focus depends on the person and the problems they experience with focus. Depression can lead to problems focusing on tasks, so if an antidepressant improves a person's symptoms, it can help a focus. But no, it's not a magic focus pill.

Many prescription medications can be abused for purposes off label. I do not doubt that many are abused in professional sports, and have seen evidence of this over the years. But Manzano's comments also need to be begin with some degree of a pinch of salt.
 
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Yeah I know. Hence why I said that 160mg sounds way too high. Didn't Pantani actually die from serotoninergic syndrome due to the combination of coke & citalopram?

Prozac doesn't really give you better focus either does it? It's even contra indicated for people suffering from attention disorders.
Don´t know about Pantani, always heard it was cocaine overdose/cardiac event. Prozac can help you gain focus because it will control doping induced depression (steroids, amphetamines, testosterone and others deplete neurotransmission), importantly it will also reduce performance anxiety that many riders have (so called "mentally weak riders").
 
So, triathlon ....

This coming weekend there's an attempt, under special circumstances/format, for the men to try sub 7 and the women to try sub 8 in the Ironman distance. Guys like Blummenfelt have been absolutely nuclear and on a tear. And from my recollection, the testing in triathlon is markedly less than what we see in the professional peloton. However, I have no idea how clean or dirty the sport is - thoughts on this? It seems to my skeptical and somewhat cynical eye, that there is fairly substantial abuse going on. However, I know much less about what's going on in triathlon than in bike racing.
 
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So, triathlon ....

This coming weekend there's an attempt, under special circumstances/format, for the men to try sub 7 and the women to try sub 8 in the Ironman distance. Guys like Blummenfelt have been absolutely nuclear and on a tear. And from my recollection, the testing in triathlon is markedly less than what we see in the professional peloton. However, I have no idea how clean or dirty the sport is - thoughts on this? It seems to my skeptical and somewhat cynical eye, that there is fairly substantial abuse going on. However, I know much less about what's going on in triathlon than in bike racing.
Hamburg? Sub 7 hours for an ironman would require the bike leg to be completed in about 3:35 or 50km/h avg. What are these "special circumstances" ?
 
So, triathlon ....

This coming weekend there's an attempt, under special circumstances/format, for the men to try sub 7 and the women to try sub 8 in the Ironman distance. Guys like Blummenfelt have been absolutely nuclear and on a tear. And from my recollection, the testing in triathlon is markedly less than what we see in the professional peloton. However, I have no idea how clean or dirty the sport is - thoughts on this? It seems to my skeptical and somewhat cynical eye, that there is fairly substantial abuse going on. However, I know much less about what's going on in triathlon than in bike racing.
I don’t have any insider knowledge but I follow the sport closely and there is very little testing. I believe the ITU tests more bc of Olympic affiliation etc but WTC/Ironman itself does pretty much nothing. This particular attempt will probably be equivalent to the Kipchoge sub-2 events, maybe they’ll say they’re testing but who knows.

Does anyone know what the temps are expected to be and if the swim is current assisted? He would have to bike 25 min or 5kph faster than his best time and probably need major swim drafting or a current to keep the run goal at about 2:35 which is the fastest anyone’s ever done in an IM. He ran 2:35 in Cozumel despite the heat though so may have room.
 
I don’t have any insider knowledge but I follow the sport closely and there is very little testing. I believe the ITU tests more bc of Olympic affiliation etc but WTC/Ironman itself does pretty much nothing. This particular attempt will probably be equivalent to the Kipchoge sub-2 events, maybe they’ll say they’re testing but who knows.

Does anyone know what the temps are expected to be and if the swim is current assisted? He would have to bike 25 min or 5kph faster than his best time and probably need major swim drafting or a current to keep the run goal at about 2:35 which is the fastest anyone’s ever done in an IM. He ran 2:35 in Cozumel despite the heat though so may have room.
Yes, the event is similar to the Sub-2 marathon, with pacing teams. I'm not sure of the whole pacing team, but Skipper I believe has Dan Bigham and Alex Dowsett as part of the pacing team, so there is some firepower in those teams. There is a website for the event ... not sure if there is any current assist in the swim.

My question is less about this event and more how the sport is doing in general. It was not that long ago that a sub 8 hour Ironman was the massive goal, and since then it seems so many folks are now clocking in under 8 hours, running sub 30 minute 10 kms, etc. Blummenfelt in particular just seems to crush everything at every distance.
 
Yes, the event is similar to the Sub-2 marathon, with pacing teams. I'm not sure of the whole pacing team, but Skipper I believe has Dan Bigham and Alex Dowsett as part of the pacing team, so there is some firepower in those teams. There is a website for the event ... not sure if there is any current assist in the swim.

My question is less about this event and more how the sport is doing in general. It was not that long ago that a sub 8 hour Ironman was the massive goal, and since then it seems so many folks are now clocking in under 8 hours, running sub 30 minute 10 kms, etc. Blummenfelt in particular just seems to crush everything at every distance.
Yeah it doesn’t come across as a clean sport to the naked eye imo. I’ve never seen a single big name get popped in pretty much the last decade, just a random no name every so often, and some of the top pros talk about wishing they did more testing. I do think the vast majority of pros are clean, but spotty at the top.

As with any sport there’s little to be gained from scandals and the IM brand itself is barely profitable so I can’t imagine they’re doing anything extra.
 
One non-PED that at least one rider talked of using is Prozac, which Riis turned to:The idea of a descending drug seems a bit daft to me, the risk/reward pay-off is wrong, especially given the options. Better to just learn how to do it, to use psychology to counter any mental issues you might have.
This reminds of a USAC camp that several of our junior riders attended in the 90s. They were exposed to ridiculously repetitive track intervals and small circuit training due to a small budget for travel (no races or transport vehicles). After several weeks many complained of fatigue and flatness. The coaches' response: it's purely a mental state. We suggest you ask your parents to get a Prozac prescription.
One of several times coaching implied "extra medication" and we brought riders home. The parents were particularly pissed off.
 
So, about the sub-7:

48'21'' - 3800m swimming
3h24'22'' - 180.0km bike (52.85km/h)
2h30'50'' - 42.2km running (3'35''/km)

I guess I'm too cynical to believe in all this. Nice gimmick though.
I know, right? All 4 competitors broke the required times. Average speed for the fastest bike leg (Skipper), pursuit style for 180 km, was over 55 km/h.

There's some crazy aero going on as well ... No aero restrictions on these bikes. But very hard for me to believe in the performances being clean given the reduced testing in tri.
 
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I know, right? All 4 competitors broke the required times. Average speed for the fastest bike leg (Skipper), pursuit style for 180 km, was over 55 km/h.

There's some crazy aero going on as well ... No aero restrictions on these bikes. But very hard for me to believe in the performances being clean given the reduced testing in tri.
Was this in Roth? If it was please bear in mind that some IM routes are a lot faster than others.

There has historically been very little doping in Tri. Not sure why, but the sport is somewhat a lot more nerdy and not so human destructive as cycling. It's a freak sport and the mentality around it is too much.

Brian Holm once said. If you can't swim, bike or run, you can always do triathlon.
 
I know, right? All 4 competitors broke the required times. Average speed for the fastest bike leg (Skipper), pursuit style for 180 km, was over 55 km/h.

There's some crazy aero going on as well ... No aero restrictions on these bikes. But very hard for me to believe in the performances being clean given the reduced testing in tri.
Another thing is that people try hard to finish a race before they get tired.

And also, event managers that setup IMs really like people to get done faster so they can get home.

And it's also good for the climate to finish fast
 
I know, right? All 4 competitors broke the required times. Average speed for the fastest bike leg (Skipper), pursuit style for 180 km, was over 55 km/h.

There's some crazy aero going on as well ... No aero restrictions on these bikes. But very hard for me to believe in the performances being clean given the reduced testing in tri.
I think there’s doping in tri but I’m not convinced this event was any more suspicious than any regular race.

Skipper confirmed he rode at 300W NP which is his normal IM race pace, the drafting just made it that much faster. He only had to hold his IM power for 3:15 instead of 4:05 so that helped as well. He’s also done 12 hours at around 280W and holds the British record in it. The top riders in tri are pretty legit.

Then all 4 of them were fresher than usual on the run and ran run PRs. No doubt that is somewhat suspicious but they were clearly fresh going into it and all the extra aid can help. Skipper had a guy watering him with a literal hose on a bike for most of the run and he’s ran similar times in other hot conditions, plus this wasn’t really that hot or humid.


Everybody in the event smashed 7/8hrs by so much that it comes across as the bike being surprisingly easier than expected, rather than some massive doping gains imo. Actually they all set public personal goals and all of their goals were 10-20 mins better than necessary, so they probably knew after one group training ride how much the drafting would help.
 
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