Gilbert vs. Sagan

[Netserk]

With Sagan (de facto) retiring, it's time to take the measure of two of the greatest classics riders in the 21st century.

 

[Hugh Januss]

Sagan was the better rider. | Gilbert has the better palmarès. | I favoured Vino.

 

[scribers]

I favored Cancellera

 

[scribers]

Sagan nod with GT's in consideration, but the question is posed with respect to classics

 

[Peyroteo94]

Gilbert had the highest ceilling, Sagan was better due to his high base level.

 

[Gigs_98]

Sagan was better and I favored Gilbert. Those two are easy. But the palmares part is a little more tricky. Gilbert has one more major win and I feel like the versatility in his wins adds a lot to his palmares. But I feel like Sagan has won enough additional races, in particular Tour stages and green jerseys, to make up for that. When people think of Gilbert they basically only think of his monument wins. When they think of Sagan they probably think of him in a green jersey at the Tour de France. The fact that Sagan's palmares has that layer on top of his classics record gives him the nod.

 

[Blanco]

Gilbert was a better classics rider.
Sagan was a better rider.

 

[Sciatic]

Gilbert had the highest ceilling, Sagan was better due to his high base level.

Funny—I thought it was the other way around, with Sagan having the sky as a limit (potential) and Gilbert making the most of his talent. However, if you meant being consistently strong from year to year then that does seem more true for Sagan.

 

[Peyroteo94]

Funny—I thought it was the other way around, with Sagan having the sky as a limit (potential) and Gilbert making the most of his talent. However, if you meant being consistently strong from year to year then that does seem more true for Sagan.

This. And when I'm saying Gilbert had a higher ceilling is because Gilbert wasted many years by being lazy in BMC. From what I saw Gilbert doing in 2011, oh my lord, no one comes remotely close to the dominance I witnessed in hilly classics and hilly stages by him. Maybe only Cancellara in his prime, was similar in dominance.

 

[Armchair Cyclist]

I know the thread is about comparing their records rather than head to heads, but according to CQ they were up against each other 284 times, with Sagan holding the balance 173 to 111. But that includes GCs, time trials, and stages in which they both rolled in well down the field with little interest. The races where they both finished top ten can probably be considered to be competitions between them: Sagan was ahead on 17 of them, to just 5 for Gilbert, and the Belgian didn't finish ahead of Sagan in such circumstances until 2017.

Nine of those races have been victories for Sagan, just two for Gilbert. And Sagan's victory in the 2013 Brabantse Pijl was the only time that they went 1-2.

(from CQ's Head to Head feature)

		Gilbert	Sagan
08/08/2020​	Milano - Sanremo	9​	4​
14/04/2019​	Paris - Roubaix	1​	5​
15/07/2018​	Tour de France, Stage 9 : Arras - Roubaix	4​	5​
11/07/2018​	Tour de France, Stage 5 : Lorient - Quimper	3​	1​
08/07/2018​	Tour de France, Stage 2 : Mouilleron-Saint-Germain - La Roche-sur-Yon	10​	1​
01/04/2018​	Ronde van Vlaanderen	3​	6​
13/08/2017​	BinckBank Tour, Stage 7 : Essen - Geraardsbergen	2​	4​
11/08/2017​	BinckBank Tour, Stage 5 : Sittard - Sittard	6​	2​
11/06/2017​	Tour de Suisse, Stage 1 : Cham - Cham	1​	8​
18/09/2016​	European Championships (Plumelec) R.R.	8​	1​
27/09/2015​	World Championships (Richmond) R.R.	10​	1​
14/03/2014​	Tirreno - Adriatico, Stage 3 : Cascina - Arezzo	4​	1​
29/09/2013​	World Championships (Lucca - Firenze) R.R.	9​	6​
01/07/2013​	Tour de France, Stage 3 : Ajaccio - Calvi	5​	2​
15/06/2013​	Tour de Suisse, Stage 8 : Zernez - Bad Ragaz	3​	1​
10/04/2013​	Brabantse Pijl	2​	1​
13/02/2013​	Tour of Oman, Stage 3 : Nakhal Fort - Wadi Dayqah Dam	7​	1​
15/07/2012​	Tour de France, Stage 14 : Limoux - Foix	4​	2​
14/07/2012​	Tour de France, Stage 13 : Saint-Paul-Trois-Châteaux - Le Cap d’Agde	8​	2​
01/07/2012​	Tour de France, Stage 1 : Liège (Bel) - Seraing (Bel)	4​	1​
15/04/2012​	Amstel Gold Race	6​	3​
01/05/2010​	Tour de Romandie, Stage 4 : Vevey - Châtel (Fra)	3​	2​

That 1-2:

It was closer than that makes it look, this is a bit after the line: https://www.google.com/search?q=bra...ate=ive&vld=cid:5f48997d,vid:k6OBjOhho3o,st:0

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Gilbert is not Peter Sagan.

Not being Peter Sagan is one of the attributes I value most highly in a rider.

I therefore favoured Gilbert.

 

[Red Rick]

Gilbert is not Peter Sagan.

Not being Peter Sagan is one of the attributes I value most highly in a rider.

I therefore favoured Gilbert.

Philippe Gilbert vs Red Rick is at least a tie in the single most important attribute

 

[CyclistAbi]

From some omnipresence point of view i would put Sagan, career, slightly ahead. Still if we get to specifics then Gilbert wins in a couple of areas too.

 

[Sciatic]

I know the thread is about comparing their records rather than head to heads, but according to CQ they were up against each other 284 times, with Sagan holding the balance 173 to 111. But that includes GCs, time trials, and stages in which they both rolled in well down the field with little interest. The races where they both finished top ten can probably be considered to be competitions between them: Sagan was ahead on 17 of them, to just 5 for Gilbert, and the Belgian didn't finish ahead of Sagan in such circumstances until 2017.

Nine of those races have been victories for Sagan, just two for Gilbert. And Sagan's victory in the 2013 Brabantse Pijl was the only time that they went 1-2.

(from CQ's Head to Head feature)

		Gilbert	Sagan
08/08/2020​	Milano - Sanremo	9​	4​
14/04/2019​	Paris - Roubaix	1​	5​
15/07/2018​	Tour de France, Stage 9 : Arras - Roubaix	4​	5​
11/07/2018​	Tour de France, Stage 5 : Lorient - Quimper	3​	1​
08/07/2018​	Tour de France, Stage 2 : Mouilleron-Saint-Germain - La Roche-sur-Yon	10​	1​
01/04/2018​	Ronde van Vlaanderen	3​	6​
13/08/2017​	BinckBank Tour, Stage 7 : Essen - Geraardsbergen	2​	4​
11/08/2017​	BinckBank Tour, Stage 5 : Sittard - Sittard	6​	2​
11/06/2017​	Tour de Suisse, Stage 1 : Cham - Cham	1​	8​
18/09/2016​	European Championships (Plumelec) R.R.	8​	1​
27/09/2015​	World Championships (Richmond) R.R.	10​	1​
14/03/2014​	Tirreno - Adriatico, Stage 3 : Cascina - Arezzo	4​	1​
29/09/2013​	World Championships (Lucca - Firenze) R.R.	9​	6​
01/07/2013​	Tour de France, Stage 3 : Ajaccio - Calvi	5​	2​
15/06/2013​	Tour de Suisse, Stage 8 : Zernez - Bad Ragaz	3​	1​
10/04/2013​	Brabantse Pijl	2​	1​
13/02/2013​	Tour of Oman, Stage 3 : Nakhal Fort - Wadi Dayqah Dam	7​	1​
15/07/2012​	Tour de France, Stage 14 : Limoux - Foix	4​	2​
14/07/2012​	Tour de France, Stage 13 : Saint-Paul-Trois-Châteaux - Le Cap d’Agde	8​	2​
01/07/2012​	Tour de France, Stage 1 : Liège (Bel) - Seraing (Bel)	4​	1​
15/04/2012​	Amstel Gold Race	6​	3​
01/05/2010​	Tour de Romandie, Stage 4 : Vevey - Châtel (Fra)	3​	2​

That 1-2:

It was closer than that makes it look, this is a bit after the line: https://www.google.com/search?q=bra...ate=ive&vld=cid:5f48997d,vid:k6OBjOhho3o,st:0

Any elite rider that competes for wins Regularly in bunch sprints will have many more wins than a rider whose success in the classics and in the occasional medium mountain stage of a GT. That’s why I thought the OP was re: which is the better classics rider, not who was best overall.

 

[proffate]

Gilbert gave us more WTF moments: climbing with the Schlecks at LBL, 60km solo at RVV, and utter domination of the Cauberg. That's why I favor him. I also don't like that Sagan phoned in his last few seasons and retired earlyish.

Sagan's green jerseys are overrated IMO. The points competitions are arbitrary. Change the rules slightly and you get a different outcome. It doesn't compare to crossing a line first. So the palmares are pretty equal but I place more gravity with the cult winner.

I do think Sagan had more talent but it was partly squandered.

 

[Netserk]

Any elite rider that competes for wins Regularly in bunch sprints will have many more wins than a rider whose success in the classics and in the occasional medium mountain stage of a GT. That’s why I thought the OP was re: which is the better classics rider, not who was best overall.

I don't think Cavendish is a better overall rider than Gilbert, so that doesn't ring true to me.

 

[RedheadDane]

Peter Sagan versus Philippe Gilbert | Same race results

Comparison of results between Peter Sagan and Philippe Gilbert in races where they both started.

www.procyclingstats.com

 

[Sciatic]

I don't think Cavendish is a better overall rider than Gilbert, so that doesn't ring true to me.

Sorry, must have worded that wrong. I meant that someone who can poke up bunch sprint wins is going to have more wins, but that doesn’t mean they’re the better rider.

 

[Red Rick]

Sorry, must have worded that wrong. I meant that someone who can poke up bunch sprint wins is going to have more wins, but that doesn’t mean they’re the better rider.

Being the best at your specialization for over a decade >> being the best at it for a single season. And I really don't see how Valkenburg as a race should be rated much higher than Copenhagen, considering they're both WCRR 100% tailor suited to the one trick that specific rider was the best in the world at.

Gilberts peak gets overrated IMO because of one single season he never got close to repeating, and outside of he converted nearly every decent shot he had to win a big race, with very few near misses.

The versatility argument is also quite weak considering the Lombardia routes he did win it on, and some of the climbing Sagan showed while stage hunting

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Sorry, must have worded that wrong. I meant that someone who can poke up bunch sprint wins is going to have more wins, but that doesn’t mean they’re the better rider.

The other thing is the courses as well. Sagan's ability to survive hills and be the fastest man left means he racked up a lot of wins in stages like those awful Tour of California ones where there was a bunch of climbing but all of it way too far from the finish to be relevant so they dropped all the sprinters but had next to no action - but while they may account for a larger % of his wins, they're also a lot of his least memorable wins, certainly compared to things like Grindelwald in the Tour de Suisse or the Sant'Elpidio a Mare one in Tirreno-Adriatico which were much rarer in terms of his palmarès but to my mind far more impressive.

 

[Netserk]

The other thing is the courses as well. Sagan's ability to survive hills and be the fastest man left means he racked up a lot of wins in stages like those awful Tour of California ones where there was a bunch of climbing but all of it way too far from the finish to be relevant so they dropped all the sprinters but had next to no action - but while they may account for a larger % of his wins, they're also a lot of his least memorable wins, certainly compared to things like Grindelwald in the Tour de Suisse or the Sant'Elpidio a Mare one in Tirreno-Adriatico which were much rarer in terms of his palmarès but to my mind far more impressive.

I liked Fermo a lot, a bunch of clueless climbers passively waiting for the uphill sprint where they would get dusted. A finish where Sagan shouldn't be able to haul his body up to the top first.

 

[topcat]

Gilbert-better rider, better palmares, better commentator. Now girls, you're both pretty. Now back to the winter hibernation.

 

[Armchair Cyclist]

he racked up a lot of wins in stages like those awful Tour of California ones where there was a bunch of climbing but all of it way too far from the finish to be relevant so they dropped all the sprinters

So the climbing was irrelevant other than to remove all the guys who would otherwise have won.

 

[AmRacer]

Gilbert-better rider, better palmares, better commentator. Now girls, you're both pretty. Now back to the winter hibernation.

Sagan-Sagan-Gilbert.

 

[Mayomaniac]

Sagan's collection of Zabel jersey's isn't worth a damn compared to Gilbert's one day race pedigree.

That said, pre-child support Sagan was a spectacular rider, but let's not pretend that he didn't have any worse years.

Overall Sagan had a higher base level over all of his career, but Gilbert has a better palmares an more spectacular peak years.