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Good Article from SI.com

Jul 19, 2010
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I'm not a blind Armstrong supporter so HATERS please spare me. It's pretty obvious that almost EVERYONE was cheating.

Story here.

That said ...

This is how much of a farce it is. Here are the 2000 results:

2000 Tour de France Complete Final General Classification

1.Lance Armstrong (US Postal): 92hr 33min 8sec Busted by USADA
2.Jan Ullrich (Telekom) @ 6min 2sec Operacion Puerto
3.Joseba Beloki (Festina) @ 10min 4sec Operacion Puerto
4.Christophe Moreau (Festina) @ 10min 34sec Festina Affair
5.Roberto Heras (Kelme) @ 11min 50sec Tested positive & suspended, stripped of Vuelta title.
6.Richard Virenque (Polti)@ 13min 26sec Festina Affair
7.Santiago Botero (Kelme)@ 14min 18sec Kelme scandal
8.Fernando Escartin (Kelme)@ 17min 21sec Kelme scandal
9.Francisco Mancebo (Banesto)@ 18min 9sec Tested positive & suspended.
10.Daniele Nardello (Mapei)@ 18min 25sec Implicated in T-Mobile doping scandal
11.Manuel Beltrán (Mapei)@ 21min 11sec Tested positive & suspended.
12.Pascal Hervé (Polti)@ 23min 13sec
13.Javier Ochoa (Kelme)@ 25min Kelme scandal.
14.Felix Garcia-Casas (Festina)@ 32min 4sec Festina affair
15.Alexandre Vinokourov (Telekom) @ 32min 26sec Tested positive for transfusions & suspended (also in T-Mobile scandal).
16.Roberto Conti (Vini Caldirola) @ 34min 18sec
17.Kurt Van De Wouwer (Lotto) @ 34min 29sec
18.Guido Trentin (Vini Caldirola) @ 35min 57sec
19.Jean-Cyril Robin (Bonjour) @ 43min 12sec
20.Geert Verheyen (Lotto) @ 46min 24sec
~
The paper suggests Daniele Nardello would be your new champion, but he was actually implicated in the Telekom/T-Mobile doping scandal later in his career, so say hello to your new "clean" podium headed by Tour champion Pascal Herve, domestique for KOM jersey winner Richard Virenque:

1. Pascal Herve (finished 12th @23:13)
2. Roberto Conti (16th @ 34:18)
3. Kurt Van De Wouwer (17th @ 34:23)


Do these people really deserve to win? Of course not. The racing would have gone WAY different if Jean Cyril Robin or Geert Verheyen knew they only had to overtake Kurt Van De Wouwer for a podium spot that year. This whole thing is a huge farce.

Really, the UCI needs to put an end to this nonsense, and either nullify the race results since at least 1995 or just accept the people who actually won on the road during the doping era and keep trying to clean up the sport going forward. Or just allow it as part of the sport if you don't think you can catch everyone. It would be like baseball going back and erasing all the HR's hit during the "doping" era. Just move forward and focus on cleaning up the sport or allow certain substances to be used.
 

the big ring

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Jul 28, 2009
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eztarget said:
i'm not a (blind) lance fan
anyone who thinks different to me is a hater
everyone did it
move on / forward
it's just nonsense / a farce


LA press release bingo score: 4
Not a fan bonus: 1
Total score: 5 (pass. Try harder next time. Hint: witch-hunt and #unconstitutional score bonus points)

Really, the UCI needs to put an end to this nonsense,

Really, someone needs to put an end to the UCI and their nonsense.
 
Jul 19, 2010
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the big ring said:
Really, someone needs to put an end to the UCI and their nonsense.

Either way you want look at it doesn't really matter. Like I said they should deal with it like Baseball dwelt with their issues. Just say it happened and leave it alone. Whether you hate LA or not he and everyone on that 2000 TDF list that was caught MADE the sport of cycling popular world wide from 1999 on. Baseball was smart enough to realize that Bonds, Sosa, and McGwire saved baseball after their 1994 strike so cycling should do the same.
 
Sep 10, 2009
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eztarget said:
The paper suggests Daniele Nardello would be your new champion, but he was actually implicated in the Telekom/T-Mobile doping scandal later in his career, so say hello to your new "clean" podium headed by Tour champion Pascal Herve, domestique for KOM jersey winner Richard Virenque:

1. Pascal Herve (finished 12th @23:13)
2. Roberto Conti (16th @ 34:18)
3. Kurt Van De Wouwer (17th @ 34:23)
The same Pascal Herve who tested positive for EPO in 2001 and who admitted to doping while on Festina? Might want to strike him off the list.
 

the big ring

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eztarget said:
Either way you want look at it doesn't really matter. Like I said they should deal with it like Baseball dwelt with their issues. Just say it happened and leave it alone. Whether you hate LA or not he and everyone on that 2000 TDF list that was caught MADE the sport of cycling popular world wide from 1999 on. Baseball was smart enough to realize that Bonds, Sosa, and McGwire saved baseball after their 1994 strike so cycling should do the same.

Someone needs to put an end to the UCI and their nonsense. I realise you have no idea what I am talking about, but trust me, the problem is with the UCI, long before it's with the riders.
 
Jul 19, 2010
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VeloCity said:
The same Pascal Herve who tested positive for EPO in 2001 and who admitted to doping while on Festina? Might want to strike him off the list.

LOL. Oops slide the scale down a little farther I guess.
 
May 27, 2012
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the big ring said:
Really, someone needs to put an end to the UCI and their nonsense.

The brilliance of your post (especially the tally of points) went completely over the OP's head. I'm finding that isn't hard with the "sure Armstrong doped, but he should be the only person who was busted who also wasn't sanctioned because they all did it!...Cancer!" crowd.
 

the big ring

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ChewbaccaD said:
The brilliance of your post (especially the tally of points) went completely over the OP's head. I'm finding that isn't hard with the "sure Armstrong doped, but he should be the only person who was busted who also wasn't sanctioned because they all did it!...Cancer!" crowd.

To be fair i added the bingo as an edit after the fact, coz it's getting sooo old I couldn't help myself.

But yes. The UCI. No idea how we fix ASO though - that's gonna be one tough nut to crack.
 
Jul 30, 2012
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Query whether it matters that the "real" winner be identified once the putative winner vacates his title for doping. Even in the very, very rare case where the victory is quickly overturned and the second place finisher is known by all to be completely clean, the outcome is tarnished beyond all reasonable repair. The best you can do is make certain that at least one cheater -- the one who finished first while on the gear -- no longer receives the victor's distinction going forward. If another cheater inherits the victory, well, at least one cheater got what he deserved.

The world is not perfect. It is, however, better when a cheater, once identified, loses his unjust victories. That another who may have cheated receives a tarnished prize does not persuade me that we should countenance blatant cheating.
 
May 14, 2010
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the big ring said:
To be fair i added the bingo as an edit after the fact, coz it's getting sooo old I couldn't help myself.

But yes. The UCI. No idea how we fix ASO though - that's gonna be one tough nut to crack.

Nope, that one's easy. Just point them toward the euros. Fixed.
 
eztarget said:
Either way you want look at it doesn't really matter. Like I said they should deal with it like Baseball dwelt with their issues. Just say it happened and leave it alone. Whether you hate LA or not he and everyone on that 2000 TDF list that was caught MADE the sport of cycling popular world wide from 1999 on. Baseball was smart enough to realize that Bonds, Sosa, and McGwire saved baseball after their 1994 strike so cycling should do the same.

Except that no sport governed by an int'l Fed that's a signatory to the WADA Code can take a position like the American pro sports leagues (historically) and ignore and implicitly condone doping in past years that they're actually well aware of (to the degree of possessing evidence even)...

The best action to take re. the TdF titles stripped from LA is to vacate them, and then establish a Truth & Reconciliation commission on doping in cycling, as I've proposed previously.
 
eztarget said:
...

This is how much of a farce it is. ...

Really, the UCI needs to put an end to this nonsense, ...

When McQuaid stated that doping was limited to 1% he never connected with his obvious confirmation that those doping would be at the top of the podium.

It is a farce, and the UCI will never put an end to this nonsense.

How can they even if they wanted to?

The next important step is for the UCI to make any statement with respect to the actual winner of any of these Tours.

There is NO right answer.

Anything that they say will be highly contested and ridiculed.

That is, hopefully, when the IOC can step in and give the UCI a formal warning to clean up or get kicked out.

Unless the UCI can guarantee greater than 50:50 likelihood of a fair competition, it shouldn't be in the Olympics. That seems like a pretty easy hurdle to clear - unless you actually know something about the sport.

Dave.
 
So what is it then?

Are cyclist hugely stupid dopers who keep getting caught some way or another, or is the totally dysfunctional UCI/WADA with their clueless testing still able to get nearly ALL signifacant pro's into doping cases and/or bans? I know, police play a role too.
With these numbers you'd start to believe cycling is the dirtiest sport around, by utter lack of unimplicated participants. I get the idea that the combination of limited prudence (arrogance) and realatively many tests, somehow overcome all the omerta and sneakiness of evil DS's, docs and riders. Still, mind bending...
 
why should Lance get to keep his jerseys when others have not? because he had the audacity to cheat seven times?

same argument goes for them all...

strip LA like they have with others. that, or reinstate the yellow jerseys to those who have had to give them up if they allow LA to keep his.
 
Jul 13, 2009
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VeloCity said:
The same Pascal Herve who tested positive for EPO in 2001 and who admitted to doping while on Festina? Might want to strike him off the list.

Yes, I seem to remember he had the nickname "Asterix" in the peloton because of all the magic potions he took.
 
Feb 4, 2012
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joe_papp said:
The best action to take re. the TdF titles stripped from LA is to vacate them, and then establish a Truth & Reconciliation commission on doping in cycling, as I've proposed previously.
Absolutley. That's the only way forward.
 
Jun 19, 2009
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ManInFull said:
It's pretty simple. If Armstrong's wins are taken, don't give the titles to anyone else.

Correction: Elegantly simple wisdom. That would shut up half of the dolts still clutching to the image of the past.
 
eztarget said:
I'm not a blind Armstrong supporter so HATERS please spare me. It's pretty obvious that almost EVERYONE was cheating.

Story here.

That said ...

This is how much of a farce it is. Here are the 2000 results:

2000 Tour de France Complete Final General Classification

1.Lance Armstrong (US Postal): 92hr 33min 8sec Busted by USADA
2.Jan Ullrich (Telekom) @ 6min 2sec Operacion Puerto
3.Joseba Beloki (Festina) @ 10min 4sec Operacion Puerto
4.Christophe Moreau (Festina) @ 10min 34sec Festina Affair
5.Roberto Heras (Kelme) @ 11min 50sec Tested positive & suspended, stripped of Vuelta title.
6.Richard Virenque (Polti)@ 13min 26sec Festina Affair
7.Santiago Botero (Kelme)@ 14min 18sec Kelme scandal
8.Fernando Escartin (Kelme)@ 17min 21sec Kelme scandal
9.Francisco Mancebo (Banesto)@ 18min 9sec Tested positive & suspended.
10.Daniele Nardello (Mapei)@ 18min 25sec Implicated in T-Mobile doping scandal
11.Manuel Beltrán (Mapei)@ 21min 11sec Tested positive & suspended.
12.Pascal Hervé (Polti)@ 23min 13sec
13.Javier Ochoa (Kelme)@ 25min Kelme scandal.
14.Felix Garcia-Casas (Festina)@ 32min 4sec Festina affair
15.Alexandre Vinokourov (Telekom) @ 32min 26sec Tested positive for transfusions & suspended (also in T-Mobile scandal).
16.Roberto Conti (Vini Caldirola) @ 34min 18sec
17.Kurt Van De Wouwer (Lotto) @ 34min 29sec
18.Guido Trentin (Vini Caldirola) @ 35min 57sec
19.Jean-Cyril Robin (Bonjour) @ 43min 12sec
20.Geert Verheyen (Lotto) @ 46min 24sec
~
The paper suggests Daniele Nardello would be your new champion, but he was actually implicated in the Telekom/T-Mobile doping scandal later in his career, so say hello to your new "clean" podium headed by Tour champion Pascal Herve, domestique for KOM jersey winner Richard Virenque:

1. Pascal Herve (finished 12th @23:13)
2. Roberto Conti (16th @ 34:18)
3. Kurt Van De Wouwer (17th @ 34:23)


Do these people really deserve to win? Of course not. The racing would have gone WAY different if Jean Cyril Robin or Geert Verheyen knew they only had to overtake Kurt Van De Wouwer for a podium spot that year. This whole thing is a huge farce.

Really, the UCI needs to put an end to this nonsense, and either nullify the race results since at least 1995 or just accept the people who actually won on the road during the doping era and keep trying to clean up the sport going forward. Or just allow it as part of the sport if you don't think you can catch everyone. It would be like baseball going back and erasing all the HR's hit during the "doping" era. Just move forward and focus on cleaning up the sport or allow certain substances to be used.

You lost me as soon as you said "the UCI needs to..." The UCI is a farce. Its corruption is obvious. "Moving forward" with the UCI guarantees more of the same.

This isn't even just about doping--it is about favoring riders.

And most of the peloton does not care. The pro peloton is a herd of sheep.
 
May 14, 2010
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MarkvW said:
You lost me as soon as you said "the UCI needs to..." The UCI is a farce. Its corruption is obvious. "Moving forward" with the UCI guarantees more of the same.
True.

This isn't even just about doping--it is about favoring riders.
True.

And most of the peloton does not care. The pro peloton is a herd of sheep.
Also true.

Every statement sad but true. If pro cycling is to continue and thrive - or even survive - the UCI has to go!
 
Jul 19, 2010
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MarkvW said:
You lost me as soon as you said "the UCI needs to..." The UCI is a farce. Its corruption is obvious. "Moving forward" with the UCI guarantees more of the same.

This isn't even just about doping--it is about favoring riders.

And most of the peloton does not care. The pro peloton is a herd of sheep.

If the UCI is a farce then replace it. If there is no momentum to replace it then except that cheating will always happen. Sports used to NOT be so much about the money but once $$$ is introduced humans will cheat. They have been doing that since the beginning of currency. You will NEVER get rid of it.
 
Sep 10, 2009
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ManInFull said:
It's pretty simple. If Armstrong's wins are taken, don't give the titles to anyone else.
Problem is the UCI set a precedent by giving Pereiro the '06 Tour win after Landis' positive, and I doubt anyone believes that Pereiro was clean (least of all Landis, judging by his statements about Pereiro while both were on Phonak :) And fair or not, Kloden and Beloki, for eg, while strongly implicated in doping and while no one believes that they were clean, have never actually tested positive, etc. Can you prevent a rider from claiming a "title by default" if he's only been implicated in doping and there's no "real" evidence against him? Is it fair to nix all of the Armstrong years completely and therefore deny (say) Beloki or Kloden their "wins" but allow Pereiro to remain on the record books as the "winner" of the '06 Tour?

Just rhetorical questions btw. It's a royal mess and there's probably no fair or easy way it can possibly be sorted out.