[Green Edge] Shayne Bannan, Gerry Ryan and an Aussie Pro Team for 2012?

[movingtarget]

Re: Re:

Much better job done by Orica today for Ewan. Matt White should be happy about that.

Next question is ..... for how much longer do you keep Ewan in the race ? Yes, there is another prime opportunity on St 13 but will he be in any condition to be able to take the opportunity ? The race has been pretty much soft pedalled so far but sooner or later some team is going to change that in a major fashion

I'd be surprised if Tuft goes on, but its difficult to obtain high quality domestiques like Tuft from the peleton - Seems certain that Hayman will stay for 2018, so again you may only have 2 or 3 changes in the squad - Docker has get a ride at the Vuelta or he is on shaky ground - In saying that Docker will get picked up by another team because he can ride classics and be part of a sprint train - What I've found most interesting in this Giro is the amount of time Plaza has been spending at the front of the peleton.

Fully agree that the likes of Sveino are far from common. Re Hayman; whilst another P-R looks on the cards, will he hand in his notice then or serve out the remainder of the year ? Curious to observe just who they've been putting on the front and it not being just the usual suspects. In all honesty, they've probably been guilty of being too noble for their own good and need not have done quite so much and are running the risk of most of the team running on empty well before St21.

I don't think Ewan will be around for the final week. McEwan used to do that all the time in the Giro and some people didn't like it but it kept him fresher for the Tour. There is no point keeping Ewan in the race when his best opportunities are gone already for stage wins and it will be easier for the team to switch focus onto the GC riders completely. Other more experienced sprinters will do the same and leave the race early. The final flat stages will come too late for Ewan as he will be struggling at that point. Only the points jersey riders will finish the race if they think that have a real shot at winning it and they are not riding the Tour.

What final flat stages? 12 and 13 are pretty much it.

Yeah my mistake I thought there was one more flat stage in the final week. Kind of a bizarre route for the race. Be interesting to see how many non climbers stick around for the final week. The domestiques won't have a choice of course but I wonder if they will have to get flexible with the time cuts ? Plenty of riders will be struggling in the last five days or so.

 

[jaylew]

Edit: Oops, wrong thread. Thought this was the general Aussie one.

 

[yaco]

Team is riding the Tour of Norway starting Monday - And Kluge is back on the bike.

 

[dirkprovin]

Re:

Team is riding the Tour of Norway starting Monday - And Kluge is back on the bike.

Saw the line-up. Looks like Albasini may be given license for some stage hunting; either up the road or selective finishes; Kluge the likely option should it be a larger group and he able to make it.

Also a lower pressure opportunity for Haig to get some GC experience which perhaps opens up a question as to whether he (or Howson) possibly given leadership for next year's TDU ..... unless they decide to just go 'all in" with TLAS for stage wins ? As for Power; just a case of getting more race miles/experience into him

 

[yaco]

Re: Re:

Team is riding the Tour of Norway starting Monday - And Kluge is back on the bike.

Saw the line-up. Looks like Albasini may be given license for some stage hunting; either up the road or selective finishes; Kluge the likely option should it be a larger group and he able to make it.

Also a lower pressure opportunity for Haig to get some GC experience which perhaps opens up a question as to whether he (or Howson) possibly given leadership for next year's TDU ..... unless they decide to just go 'all in" with TLAS for stage wins ? As for Power; just a case of getting more race miles/experience into him

First stage in the Tour of Norway may decide GC and my guess is Haig will be the GC rider. Orica always wants to win the GC at TDU, though they'll be very keen to win the National Championship.

 

[dirkprovin]

Re: Re:

Team is riding the Tour of Norway starting Monday - And Kluge is back on the bike.

Saw the line-up. Looks like Albasini may be given license for some stage hunting; either up the road or selective finishes; Kluge the likely option should it be a larger group and he able to make it.

Also a lower pressure opportunity for Haig to get some GC experience which perhaps opens up a question as to whether he (or Howson) possibly given leadership for next year's TDU ..... unless they decide to just go 'all in" with TLAS for stage wins ? As for Power; just a case of getting more race miles/experience into him

First stage in the Tour of Norway may decide GC and my guess is Haig will be the GC rider. Orica always wants to win the GC at TDU, though they'll be very keen to win the National Championship.

Whilst both those outcomes are still undoubtedly desirable for the team; they are no longer at the level of season priority they were for the first couple of years. They did the big PR gesture out of the way this year by bringing Chaves out for TDU; that box is ticked so they don't have to repeat it. All they need is for the jersey to be prominent and stage wins would tick that box. What they MIGHT want to get their paws on is winning Cuddles Race.

As for Norway, other than Albasini winning stg 1 from a break; Haig is the only GC option they have.

 

[swuzzlebubble]

Stages 3 & 5 at Norway look more selective than stage 1 but it looks like a puncheurs race
What about Gerrans?

 

[dirkprovin]

Re:

Stages 3 & 5 at Norway look more selective than stage 1 but it looks like a puncheurs race
What about Gerrans?

Plausible but he really hasn't looked particularly good this season especially when put up against Albasini's performances. Would have to go with the form men and the two from this team who've been riding well in hilly terrain have been Albasini in the Ardennes/Romandie as has Haig at Pais Vasco & Romandie.

 

[dirkprovin]

Enough has been said about the incident involving Yates and people will have their own opinions as to the rights/wrongs. What I have to say concerns Matt White and his comments post stage. Whilst I can fully understand his frustrations, he would've been better advised NOT speaking to the media until he'd had a chance to calm down. He as a DS has been involved with race situations where his riders have been in similar situations close to the end of stages/races ..... and done exactly the same as Movistar did in this case.

Observing ORS at this race is further confirming a growing impression of mine that White's talents are probably best optimised working on the future structure/recruiting/overall strategy side of things whereas Stephens is clearly their number one race DS/race strategist. Will be interesting to see if that is how things may evolve over the next few years .... $$$$ & sponsorship permitting of course !

 

[yaco]

My guess is that goals will be reset after tomorrow's ITT - Think if Yates stays within 2 1/2 or 3 min of Jungels then he'll go for the Young Riders classification, otherwise will go for stage victories or may even withdraw and ride the TDF.

White's comments were impruden,t but think there is a growing frustration with bad luck, that's plagued the team in stage races this year. A. Yates withdrew from TA during stage 5 when 2nd on GC, while S.Yates punctured just before the final climb in the one mountain stage in Pais Vasco, which ended his GC. So bad luck in three WT stage races.

Thought Moviestar should have backed off the pace or the Commissars neutralised the race, seeing the accident was caused by race officials.

 

[movingtarget]

Re:

My guess is that goals will be reset after tomorrow's ITT - Think if Yates stays within 2 1/2 or 3 min of Jungels then he'll go for the Young Riders classification, otherwise will go for stage victories or may even withdraw and ride the TDF.

White's comments were impruden,t but think there is a growing frustration with bad luck, that's plagued the team in stage races this year. A. Yates withdrew from TA during stage 5 when 2nd on GC, while S.Yates punctured just before the final climb in the one mountain stage in Pais Vasco, which ended his GC. So bad luck in three WT stage races.

Thought Moviestar should have backed off the pace or the Commissars neutralised the race, seeing the accident was caused by race officials.

Interesting comparing the Ventoux incident in the Tour with this one. If Nibali and Quintana had also fallen I am betting it would have been neutralized.

 

[swuzzlebubble]

Re:

Thought Moviestar should have backed off the pace or the Commissars neutralised the race, seeing the accident was caused by race officials.

Won't happen without this being an official rule/protocol, which would be a Pandora's can of worms.

 

[dirkprovin]

Re: Re:

Thought Moviestar should have backed off the pace or the Commissars neutralised the race, seeing the accident was caused by race officials.

Won't happen without this being an official rule/protocol, which would be a Pandora's can of worms.

Very much agree. A decision to neutralise is generally made when prevailing race conditions (be they weather or road conditions) for the route, or part of the route, are deemed unsafe for racing. This was not the case with the incident in question.

Had it been the case that the field as a whole was decimated and/or the bulk of the contenders "on the deck" or inconvenienced then there would've been a strong case for a temporary neutralisation but again this was not the case. We had less than a dozen riders on the deck of which only 3 were contenders; most of the remaining peleton were able to avoid/go around. Just not sure that an official neutralisation was warranted.

Codifying a more complete set of rules with regards to neutralisations/race incidents .... and procedures for race/media vehicles or motos; certainly worth pursueing especially regarding the latter but you realistically cannot forsee every possible scenario.

As for White; I do hope he's regained some perspective. Yes, his rider was on the rough end of this incident but its also the case that this particular rider has also benefited from a "moto" incident in a major race. ORS has been on the rough end of some major race accidents (think 2015 TDF) but conversely, they'll also engaged in precisely the same conduct (think Monte Cassino 2014 Giro) for which he is criticising Movistar.

 

[yaco]

Lets keep it simple. Any race should be neutralised if a race vehicle or official causes an accident.

 

[dirkprovin]

Re:

Lets keep it simple. Any race should be neutralised if a race vehicle or official causes an accident.

No; I cannot agree with such a blanket "mandatory sentencing"/"one size fits all"decree. You need to consider the specific circumstances of each incident, its seriousness and its impacts. GIve the race director the discretion to do so in such instances; am absolutely fine with that but don't tie his/her hands by forcing a decision that may in many cases be an over-reaction.

 

[yaco]

Re: Re:

Lets keep it simple. Any race should be neutralised if a race vehicle or official causes an accident.

No; I cannot agree with such a blanket "mandatory sentencing"/"one size fits all"decree. You need to consider the specific circumstances of each incident, its seriousness and its impacts. GIve the race director the discretion to do so in such instances; am absolutely fine with that but don't tie his/her hands by forcing a decision that may in many cases be an over-reaction.

I need to clarify this should only happen at the head of the race. Does not apply if behind the leaders.

Remember that stage in the 2016 TDF when Gerrans fell on the descent bringing down two Sky riders. Between Orica,Sky and Cancellara they slowed down the speed to allow the three riders to recover. At the same time this allowed Meinte the main contender to Yates for the white jersey to catch up from a group two minutes behind. This was a case of self regulation which could habe been done by Moviestar.

 

[dirkprovin]

Re: Re:

Lets keep it simple. Any race should be neutralised if a race vehicle or official causes an accident.

No; I cannot agree with such a blanket "mandatory sentencing"/"one size fits all"decree. You need to consider the specific circumstances of each incident, its seriousness and its impacts. GIve the race director the discretion to do so in such instances; am absolutely fine with that but don't tie his/her hands by forcing a decision that may in many cases be an over-reaction.

I need to clarify this should only happen at the head of the race. Does not apply if behind the leaders.

Remember that stage in the 2016 TDF when Gerrans fell on the descent bringing down two Sky riders. Between Orica,Sky and Cancellara they slowed down the speed to allow the three riders to recover. At the same time this allowed Meinte the main contender to Yates for the white jersey to catch up from a group two minutes behind. This was a case of self regulation which could habe been done by Moviestar.

And that was also considerably further from the finish which undoubtedly was a key factor. Such generosity could be afforded. Don't think Orica were necessarily in a position of being able to "boss it to the peleton", the others that you named far more so

Again, each different incident has its own specific circumstances. Do you not think that at least one in the Movistar line didn't take a look behind to see who was still there ? They probably saw that almost everyone (when it comes to the contenders) was still very much present and accounted for. Had it been the case that more had been impacted, then it may have brought about a decision to "rein it back" .... but then, who knows whether another team may then have decided to "break ranks" and keep motoring ?

Will be interesting to see whether anyone at Orica other than Yates actually has a "hit out" in tonight's TT. Hepburn had some decent TT form earlier in the year and hasn't really been called on too much so far in the race so perhaps he may be given a green light

 

[yaco]

Yates is now 3 minutes behind Jungels for the Young Riders Classification - Every chance Yates can pull that and more in the remaining stages before the TT - My guess is he will continue riding for GC.

 

[dirkprovin]

Re:

Yates is now 3 minutes behind Jungels for the Young Riders Classification - Every chance Yates can pull that and more in the remaining stages before the TT - My guess is he will continue riding for GC.

He can conceivably salvage a top 10 finish if he stays fit, healthy and focused. White Jersey may be an ask given Jungels demonstrated at last year's Giro that he can finish a GT in a high finish. Yates would probably need 2 minutes, preferably more, on Jungels going into the final stage TT; thats an ask of over 5 min. Realistically, he'll be needing Jungels to crack horrendously at some point ..... and hope he himself doesn't.

As for TT performances. Yates did as well as could be expected given his relative TT capabilities. An excellent ride from Hepburn (which didn't surprise); a surprisingly good one from Plaza & a reasonably good debut showing from Edmondson. Kinda curious to find out what the time limit was for this TT, was thinking that Ewan & esp Pelucchi might've be flirting with it

 

[StryderHells]

Re: Re:

Yates is now 3 minutes behind Jungels for the Young Riders Classification - Every chance Yates can pull that and more in the remaining stages before the TT - My guess is he will continue riding for GC.

He can conceivably salvage a top 10 finish if he stays fit, healthy and focused. White Jersey may be an ask given Jungels demonstrated at last year's Giro that he can finish a GT in a high finish. Yates would probably need 2 minutes, preferably more, on Jungels going into the final stage TT; thats an ask of over 5 min. Realistically, he'll be needing Jungels to crack horrendously at some point ..... and hope he himself doesn't.

As for TT performances. Yates did as well as could be expected given his relative TT capabilities. An excellent ride from Hepburn (which didn't surprise); a surprisingly good one from Plaza & a reasonably good debut showing from Edmondson. Kinda curious to find out what the time limit was for this TT, was thinking that Ewan & esp Pelucchi might've be flirting with it

Pelucchi was OTL at 16 minutes, pretty sure Ewan had a couple of minutes to play with.

Plaza was a surprise, I'd expect him to be allowed to look for breakaway opportunities once the roads tilt upwards again.

 

[Scarponi]

Probably a good decision to send Chaves away from giro. Tommy d would have put some time in there

 

[Scarponi]

Re: Re:

Thought Moviestar should have backed off the pace or the Commissars neutralised the race, seeing the accident was caused by race officials.

Won't happen without this being an official rule/protocol, which would be a Pandora's can of worms.

Very much agree. A decision to neutralise is generally made when prevailing race conditions (be they weather or road conditions) for the route, or part of the route, are deemed unsafe for racing. This was not the case with the incident in question.

Had it been the case that the field as a whole was decimated and/or the bulk of the contenders "on the deck" or inconvenienced then there would've been a strong case for a temporary neutralisation but again this was not the case. We had less than a dozen riders on the deck of which only 3 were contenders; most of the remaining peleton were able to avoid/go around. Just not sure that an official neutralisation was warranted.

Codifying a more complete set of rules with regards to neutralisations/race incidents .... and procedures for race/media vehicles or motos; certainly worth pursueing especially regarding the latter but you realistically cannot forsee every possible scenario.

As for White; I do hope he's regained some perspective. Yes, his rider was on the rough end of this incident but its also the case that this particular rider has also benefited from a "moto" incident in a major race. ORS has been on the rough end of some major race accidents (think 2015 TDF) but conversely, they'll also engaged in precisely the same conduct (think Monte Cassino 2014 Giro) for which he is criticising Movistar.

While out there, if this was a rule I couldn't put it past a team with a sick rider to sacrifice themselves hitting a moto to protect a sick team leader especially if the next big GC stage is 5 days away for example

 

[dirkprovin]

Re: Re:

Yates is now 3 minutes behind Jungels for the Young Riders Classification - Every chance Yates can pull that and more in the remaining stages before the TT - My guess is he will continue riding for GC.

He can conceivably salvage a top 10 finish if he stays fit, healthy and focused. White Jersey may be an ask given Jungels demonstrated at last year's Giro that he can finish a GT in a high finish. Yates would probably need 2 minutes, preferably more, on Jungels going into the final stage TT; thats an ask of over 5 min. Realistically, he'll be needing Jungels to crack horrendously at some point ..... and hope he himself doesn't.

As for TT performances. Yates did as well as could be expected given his relative TT capabilities. An excellent ride from Hepburn (which didn't surprise); a surprisingly good one from Plaza & a reasonably good debut showing from Edmondson. Kinda curious to find out what the time limit was for this TT, was thinking that Ewan & esp Pelucchi might've be flirting with it

Pelucchi was OTL at 16 minutes, pretty sure Ewan had a couple of minutes to play with.

Plaza was a surprise, I'd expect him to be allowed to look for breakaway opportunities once the roads tilt upwards again.

So they DID OTL Pelucchi, wasn't showing up as such on results sheet until a short time ago. A 30% cutoff and Ewan had a couple of minutes, at 25% ... very perilous !

Re Plaza; yes it does raise the possibility of employing him strategically given he clearly has some reasonable legs.

 

[yaco]

Re: Re:

Yates is now 3 minutes behind Jungels for the Young Riders Classification - Every chance Yates can pull that and more in the remaining stages before the TT - My guess is he will continue riding for GC.

He can conceivably salvage a top 10 finish if he stays fit, healthy and focused. White Jersey may be an ask given Jungels demonstrated at last year's Giro that he can finish a GT in a high finish. Yates would probably need 2 minutes, preferably more, on Jungels going into the final stage TT; thats an ask of over 5 min. Realistically, he'll be needing Jungels to crack horrendously at some point ..... and hope he himself doesn't.

As for TT performances. Yates did as well as could be expected given his relative TT capabilities. An excellent ride from Hepburn (which didn't surprise); a surprisingly good one from Plaza & a reasonably good debut showing from Edmondson. Kinda curious to find out what the time limit was for this TT, was thinking that Ewan & esp Pelucchi might've be flirting with it

Pelucchi was OTL at 16 minutes, pretty sure Ewan had a couple of minutes to play with.

Plaza was a surprise, I'd expect him to be allowed to look for breakaway opportunities once the roads tilt upwards again.

Ewan was an embarrassment today - I understand 60 to 70% of riders just get around in the ITT, but Ewan who was featured three times on the coverage, wasn't trying at all - He was barely pedalling and this was in the first half of the ITT.

 

[yaco]

Verona is the one with good legs and may go in breakaways - Yates can follow Movie Star who will attack the race - I suspect with Movie Star going full gas then the breakaways will be in for disappointment - Possibly a late breakaway say on the final climb could escape.