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[Green Edge] Shayne Bannan, Gerry Ryan and an Aussie Pro Team for 2012?

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Re:

StryderHells said:
@Dirk

It's not just performances out on the road that makes someone useful as a team member, there might be a heap that Tuft adds to team cohesion that we simply don't see.

A very fair point .... but these "intangibles" realistically count for very little when/if it becomes clear that "rider X" is showing himself no longer capable of performing his peak tasks to the level requirement ..... and the pressure level for Orica has increased exponentially from the early days where riders could/did have relative days off.

IF there is an off the role at Orica, going forward from racing, that Sveino could move into (if he is so interested) then I'd be more than happy for that to play out
 
Re: Re:

yaco said:
dirkprovin said:
yaco said:
claude cat said:
Really surprised that Tuft gets another year.

On form not surprised - Surprised in the sense that he may want to stop cycling at 40.

Sorry but what form is that ??? Ok, he won the CAN ITT title but that really isn't particularly competitive. He did ride a few long stints on the front of the peleton on some early stages of the Giro but for the vast majority there was nothing differentiating him from any other member of the grupetto.

I'm just not seeing any real justification as to why his actual performances warrant another year and that his job cannot be done better by other riders with wider skillsets and greater versatility. I hope this extra year does work out satisfactorarily for both parties as he truly does warrant "going out" with the respect that he legitimately warrants but I cannot help thinking sentiment may have supplanted reason in this case. Along with some other recent M.White statements; I'm somewhat less than convinced of the quality of some of the recent decision making

Tuft did a power of work at the Giro in the stages which suited his capabilities - I have seen nothing to show he is slowing down.
You must be either blind or ignorant then. Guy is significantly worse than he was, say, 5 years ago.. ;)
 
Re: Re:

Valv.Piti said:
yaco said:
dirkprovin said:
yaco said:
claude cat said:
Really surprised that Tuft gets another year.

On form not surprised - Surprised in the sense that he may want to stop cycling at 40.

Sorry but what form is that ??? Ok, he won the CAN ITT title but that really isn't particularly competitive. He did ride a few long stints on the front of the peleton on some early stages of the Giro but for the vast majority there was nothing differentiating him from any other member of the grupetto.

I'm just not seeing any real justification as to why his actual performances warrant another year and that his job cannot be done better by other riders with wider skillsets and greater versatility. I hope this extra year does work out satisfactorarily for both parties as he truly does warrant "going out" with the respect that he legitimately warrants but I cannot help thinking sentiment may have supplanted reason in this case. Along with some other recent M.White statements; I'm somewhat less than convinced of the quality of some of the recent decision making

Tuft did a power of work at the Giro in the stages which suited his capabilities - I have seen nothing to show he is slowing down.
You must be either blind or ignorant then. Guy is significantly worse than he was, say, 5 years ago.. ;)

I am discussing his role in the team - He doesn't need to be at 2012 levels to fill a role - Gerrans is significantly worse than 2 years ago and will be shown the door -, Hayman is not travelling as well as 2016 - For example can these two riders fill a role ? You need to look at the bigger picture - Am i surprised that Tuft is staying another year ? Yes, I am mildly surprised - Do I think it is a bad decision ? No when I consider the form of other older riders.
 
Re: Re:

I have no problems with the general thrust of your argument, however, its my dispassionate assessment that both Hayman and Tuft are "much of a muchness" as regards how well they are travelling. Hayman had his career high point last season so this season was always going to be a "let down" by comparison. My view is that he was still capable of productive contributions on his favoured turf (cobbles) and he performed to that level. Away from there .... equivocal but we are not privy as to what the internal team instructions may be. What I think MAY happen with him is that he may be given a short contract covering until the end of the cobbles season where he may well collect his superannuation after P-R ... I may of course be wrong.

Other than Tuft & Hayman, there are 3 others who I see as being in the "window" for potential retirement or "moving along". Gerrans appears to be a likely out. That leaves Plaza who on his Giro ride should merit another year at least but maybe he wants out. Albasini continues to show a capacity to win at WT level and contend in Ardennes style one dayers. Again a very strong case to be made for re-signing but who knows his mind ? Hopefully at least one of these 3 will still be with the team next season.

Maybe it is the case that with a couple of these other "advanced years" riders moving on, the team may still be wanting a couple of these seniors around as mentors ..... that is an argument that I can largely accept however it can also be acknowledged that there are still some other riders on the team with significant experience at this level who can assume these roles (thinking Impey, Kreuziger maybe, J-J).
 
It's not that either he or Tuft are expensive, but surely they need to bring some young blood into the team instead of becoming a retirement home for old riders?
They have both been fine servants of the team and possibly still have a little to offer, but OS need to be bringing in more young riders into their squad.
IMO
 
I think Hayman is in obvious decline as a rider, whereas Tuft is going OK - Thought both would be gone.with some chance one would stay - Both staying is extremely surprising - Noticed Orica is announcing contract renewals by age going downwards - Albasini next ?
 
I'm not really off-side with this Hayman re-signing as he certainly did show during the cobbles season that he is still a capable performer over this terrain ... and with both Keukeleire & Cort leaving, his experience could still be valuable in mentoring Edmondson if nothing else.

What I am surprised is that it is for another full season rather than just until the end of the spring classics as, away from this favoured environment, he probably has been struggling. Might that still happen ?

I do see some merit in Claude's contention re "retirement home" and I have parted company with Yaco when it comes to Tuft as I do feel that he is well into the realms of diminishing returns as regards his capabilities to perform throughout longer races. I think too much was made of a couple of long rides on the front at the Giro (creditable as they may have been). I just feel that they have other younger riders who can perform the role Sveino has done (with distinction) but better, with better recovery and over wider ranges of terrain.

Albasini = I would most certainly be keeping if he is wanting to continue however I might be looking at just keeping him for the one day races and one-weekers rather than sending to any more GTs

Plaza is the other one in that "zone" as regards age. To my mind, he rode superbly at the Giro .... indeed, better than AY ultimately given his inability to gain full value for Plaza's hard work. I would personally have no problems with him being re-signed but does he want to continue or does he want to ride out his career "at home", maybe with a team on a lower tier ?

In summation, my preferred option would be that only 2 of the 5 in the "retirement zone" be re-signed or, in the interests of flexibility, allow a third (Hayman) to ride the spring classics before collecting his retirement cheque. Personally, Albasini and Plaza would be my choices.
 
Re:

dirkprovin said:
I do see some merit in Claude's contention re "retirement home"

Hasn't there always been an aspect of that, though? In their first season they had Dean, Cooke, McEwen and O'Grady who were ancient but high profile. They also had Matt Wilson and Brett Lancaster who were both over 33 that year. They also only signed Hayman the year he turned 36. As for hiring young talent, I agree their recruitment is sometimes a bit of a mixed bag, but they usually sign at least one big talent per year.

2013: Matthews (their only signing)
2014: Chaves, Yates twins, Howson, but also Hayman and Santaromita
2015: Ewan, Cort but also Blythe
2016: Edmondson, Power, Haig, Juul, Mezgec, Plaza and Txurruka
2017: Kluge und Kreuziger
 
Re: Re:

TMP402 said:
dirkprovin said:
I do see some merit in Claude's contention re "retirement home"

Hasn't there always been an aspect of that, though? In their first season they had Dean, Cooke, McEwen and O'Grady who were ancient but high profile. They also had Matt Wilson and Brett Lancaster who were both over 33 that year. They also only signed Hayman the year he turned 36. As for hiring young talent, I agree their recruitment is sometimes a bit of a mixed bag, but they usually sign at least one big talent per year.

2013: Matthews (their only signing)
2014: Chaves, Yates twins, Howson, but also Hayman and Santaromita
2015: Ewan, Cort but also Blythe
2016: Edmondson, Power, Haig, Juul, Mezgec, Plaza and Txurruka
2017: Kluge und Kreuziger

Yes, I do agree that their original squad had a distinct aroma of super-annuants about it ..... but to their credit they DID "move on" all but Lancaster after their initial contracts lapsed. Hayman HAS been a worthwhile signing both with regards to snagging a monument but as a general mentor.

As per young signings, by and large their record hasn't been bad but there seems to be a mindset amongst some fans (thankfully few here) that Orica has to snag EVERY prime young AUS talent that comes along .... and that they are somehow negligent if they fail to do so. In all honesty, the only one "prime" that they arguably missed was Dennis but at the time that Orica was setting up, his rep wasn't all that it should be. In his case, they have most certainly missed out on a potential World Champion TTer ... as for GT contendeer, colour me sceptical.

As for development of young talent, so far it probably weighs up fairly well on the credit side when we look at Chaves and both Yates. Matthews should be seen as a credit; its a reality that rarely are you in a team for life but rather the case of being in the right team at the key points of one's career as I suspect Ewan will need to wise up to .... if his manager hasn't already. Durbridge has been a work in progress and Haig may possibly develop into a top flight climber.

Not all intl signings have worked out but there are certainly a number who have thrived in this environment. What is probably to its ultimate credit that it has NOT proven to be just an "Aussie Mates Club" but rather somewhere where any rider with the right team ethic and attitude from any nationality will find themselves both valued but also at home.
 
The riders Orica signed at the beginning of the program should not be compared to 6 years ago. Obviously at the beginning Orica signed sprinter types to ensure easy access to results.It just happened to be that most of the available riders were near the end of their careers. Combine this with the need to havile strong Australian representation in the initial squad led to a perfect storm. To call Orica a retirement home is stretching the truth. I am on record being surprised at the contract renewals for Hayman and Tuft. The two important priorities for Orica are to resign essential riders like Edmondson and Haig and wisely choose the upcoming young Aussie talent.
 
Re:

yaco said:
The riders Orica signed at the beginning of the program should not be compared to 6 years ago. Obviously at the beginning Orica signed sprinter types to ensure easy access to results.It just happened to be that most of the available riders were near the end of their careers. Combine this with the need to havile strong Australian representation in the initial squad led to a perfect storm. To call Orica a retirement home is stretching the truth. I am on record being surprised at the contract renewals for Hayman and Tuft. The two important priorities for Orica are to resign essential riders like Edmondson and Haig and wisely choose the upcoming young Aussie talent.

Hhhmm, I WILL agree that at the outset, Orica quite rightly centred on sprint wins as their best avenue for results and nor were they in a SKY situation of having the budget to spend top dollar across the board. With the "superannuant" AUS signing, whilst the "retirement home' crack did have some level of hyperbole in that some were still able to perform constructive roles; it also had validity as a significant percentage were "marginal" performers and had arguably been so for a few years previous. As for international signings; there's been hits and misfits; thankfully the "hits" have proven extraordinarily good ones.

100% concur that this year's signing priorities should be the retention of both Haig and Edmondson plus snagging at least one (pref 2) of the peak AUS talent that comes on the market. As for any further intl signings; think it will be a matter of who's available/do their talents align with team objectives/likely personality fits .... and what the budget will allow.
 
Re:

yaco said:
Hepburn renews for two years.

Team for the Vuelta

Yates x 2
Verona
Haig
Chaves
Juul Jensen
Cort
Bewley
Tuft

Happy enough with this team. Good they brought a sprinter Cort who can win a stage.

It could be a wild ride.

Lots of climbing power and a couple of TT engines. Lots of capability to do damage if they are on form.
 
Re: Re:

claude cat said:
yaco said:
Hepburn renews for two years.

Team for the Vuelta

Yates x 2
Verona
Haig
Chaves
Juul Jensen
Cort
Bewley
Tuft

Happy enough with this team. Good they brought a sprinter Cort who can win a stage.

It could be a wild ride.

Lots of climbing power and a couple of TT engines. Lots of capability to do damage if they are on form.

The only possible changes could have been Hepburn for Bewley and Plaza for Verona which would boost the TTT - Anyway, Orica has options to win stages.
 
Re:

yaco said:
Hepburn renews for two years.

Team for the Vuelta

Yates x 2
Verona
Haig
Chaves
Juul Jensen
Cort
Bewley
Tuft

Happy enough with this team. Good they brought a sprinter Cort who can win a stage.

It could be a wild ride.

No issues with Hepburn's re-signing; will be interesting to see what his program for next year looks like. Likewise with the Joker; it looked last year that he "clicked" with the team on a personal basis even if performance seemed a tad anonymous. This year, we've seen the performance ... there's the potential for him to become another "long termer" with this team.

The 3 GC men together reads like such a wonderful scenario but the reality is that its far more likely to prove a total fizzer than pay any worthwhile dividends. I just think that SY will be running on empty ..... but, if the team is going to make major muck-ups, better it be in the first year of rider's contracts rather than in the re-signing year ! :rolleyes: WILL be interesting to see how the AY/Chaves dynamic plays out; the SY/Chaves one is positive but think there is little history of AY & Chavito riding the same race.

Otherwise, not too many issues. Would prefer Plaza to Verona (but there may be some background that we don't know) and Hepburn for Tuft (on grounds of better going uphill but maybe some other goals in mind - Worlds TTT ?)
Happy to see Cort given a run even if he is "moving on" and hope that some of the others will be up for giving him a hand at some sprint opportunities.
 
Re:

yaco said:
Hepburn renews for two years.

Team for the Vuelta

Yates x 2
Verona
Haig
Chaves
Juul Jensen
Cort
Bewley
Tuft

Happy enough with this team. Good they brought a sprinter Cort who can win a stage.

It could be a wild ride.
IF (and it's a big if) Chaves has recovered from the knee injury, he's surely going to go berserk here, with a team like this to back him up.
 
Re: Re:

42x16ss said:
yaco said:
Hepburn renews for two years.

Team for the Vuelta

Yates x 2
Verona
Haig
Chaves
Juul Jensen
Cort
Bewley
Tuft

Happy enough with this team. Good they brought a sprinter Cort who can win a stage.

It could be a wild ride.
IF (and it's a big if) Chaves has recovered from the knee injury, he's surely going to go berserk here, with a team like this to back him up.

I suspect Orica could so some damage to themselves and the peleton with the three GC riders - They will have options on the tough days. Chaves is an interesting rider in that he SUDDENLY hits form and then holds it for a period of time - There is no gradual build up where he shows a bit more in eahc race.