The most interesting question is what happened to Kluge - Rode most lead up races with Ewan, including the recently completed Tour of Yorkshire, the two seemed to be working well together, he was on the start list for the Giro - There was a clue from stage 1 of Yorkshire - Cort did the final lead out for Ewan, instead of Kluge - Maybe Cort was to ride the Giro.
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Re:
I could readily agree with you under two circumstances.
1. We have a clear read from season form to date that both mountain support are reasonably likely to be of service. Verona ticks that box but we have nothing meaningful for Plaza who is getting on in years (37). Whilst it would be unrealistic to expect Haig, as a 2nd year pro, to be up for day in-day out slog; we have good reason to feel that he would at least be up for some meaningful contributions when called upon. I will grant that he's not yet up for 2 GTs in the one year so perhaps they have specifically marked down for Vuelta. Kreuziger .... has some recent decent rides but perhaps they are locked in contractually for this year at least to send him to the Tour.
2. They're not carrying any one dimensional passengers who have only one purpose but are otherwise dead weight. With due respect, that describes Ewan & Edmondson & regrettably most likely Tuft. You can never know how crashes/injury and illness may impact a team during a 3 week GT which is why I'm so leery of ORS essentially locking themselves into being 2 men down by end of 2nd week with the selection of Edmondson as well as Ewan. If the team focus was still stage hunting and sprint wins, then that wouldn't be a concern but when pursuing GC ??
Just who are the quality rouleurs in that line-up ? Juul-Jensen could indeed be valuable and Hepburn & Mezgec of some use but that's it. In time, Edmondson could develop along those lines but not at this point. Just feel this looks to be the weakest of their likely GT lineups for this year
yaco said:
I could readily agree with you under two circumstances.
1. We have a clear read from season form to date that both mountain support are reasonably likely to be of service. Verona ticks that box but we have nothing meaningful for Plaza who is getting on in years (37). Whilst it would be unrealistic to expect Haig, as a 2nd year pro, to be up for day in-day out slog; we have good reason to feel that he would at least be up for some meaningful contributions when called upon. I will grant that he's not yet up for 2 GTs in the one year so perhaps they have specifically marked down for Vuelta. Kreuziger .... has some recent decent rides but perhaps they are locked in contractually for this year at least to send him to the Tour.
2. They're not carrying any one dimensional passengers who have only one purpose but are otherwise dead weight. With due respect, that describes Ewan & Edmondson & regrettably most likely Tuft. You can never know how crashes/injury and illness may impact a team during a 3 week GT which is why I'm so leery of ORS essentially locking themselves into being 2 men down by end of 2nd week with the selection of Edmondson as well as Ewan. If the team focus was still stage hunting and sprint wins, then that wouldn't be a concern but when pursuing GC ??
Just who are the quality rouleurs in that line-up ? Juul-Jensen could indeed be valuable and Hepburn & Mezgec of some use but that's it. In time, Edmondson could develop along those lines but not at this point. Just feel this looks to be the weakest of their likely GT lineups for this year
Re: Re:
A couple of things to add - Gerrans is a decent rouluer should be riding the Giro and the Vuelta and he can be a decent rouleur - Team is hamstrung at the moment with Impey and Cory breaking collarbones in the last week and Durbridge is probably just right after his broken ribs, while Keukeliere has been a last minute withdrawal from 2 races since Gent Werelgem, so is not 100% - Impey and Durbridge were down to ride the TDF so no loss to the Giro - Reading between the lines it seems Cort was to ride the Giro and possible Keukeliere - The biggest worry is Docker is missing another GT - Last Gt was 2015 Vuelta in which he was OTL - He needs to ride a Gt in 2017 to be contracted for 2018 - I'm happy that Haig is resting up - Power is a concern as he's still a million miles away.
dirkprovin said:
A couple of things to add - Gerrans is a decent rouluer should be riding the Giro and the Vuelta and he can be a decent rouleur - Team is hamstrung at the moment with Impey and Cory breaking collarbones in the last week and Durbridge is probably just right after his broken ribs, while Keukeliere has been a last minute withdrawal from 2 races since Gent Werelgem, so is not 100% - Impey and Durbridge were down to ride the TDF so no loss to the Giro - Reading between the lines it seems Cort was to ride the Giro and possible Keukeliere - The biggest worry is Docker is missing another GT - Last Gt was 2015 Vuelta in which he was OTL - He needs to ride a Gt in 2017 to be contracted for 2018 - I'm happy that Haig is resting up - Power is a concern as he's still a million miles away.
I think Kluge's omission must be because he can shepherd Chaves at the TDF, he seems ideal for it. Personally i'd have liked to have seen Haig at the Giro, I doubt he can crack the TDF squad (Impey, Albasini and Gerrans should be there for the medium mountains, with Kreuziger and Howson for the high mountains, leaving two/ three flat doms- probably Bewley, Durbo, Keukeleire, Kluge and Hayman )and he can provide good support to Adam.
Re: Re:
I can certainly go with your argument re Gerrans. Don't think he's one who's going to be overly effective for day in/day out slog but he showed last season, both at Tour & at Vuelta, he can be very effective when called on for specific efforts & in set piece moves.
Agree the injuries to Impey, Cort & Durbridge plus Keukeleire missing recent races has cut back a number of their options significantly. Keukeleire may well have been down for Giro but would most certainly be pencilled in for Vuelta given that he closed out last season particularly strongly.
I'd have frankly gone Docker ahead of Tuft; Sveino's just no longer the tireless indestructable machine he was for so long so there's little difference on that front and Docker has greater utility as support for Ewan early on. Kluge has had recent illness plus Mezgec has greater overall utility.
Not worried too much about Power as we are grading him against his fellow "intake", Haig & Edmondson. One had an excellent neo pro year and looks to be building upon that & the other has had a stellar start to this year. In essence, this IS Power's neo-pro year rather than a second year and probably should be graded on that basis.
Nah, Bewley has the job of Chaves' "minder" locked down. At this point, we'll take it as read that it will be both Chaves & SY to Tour. Howson & Kreuziger locks barring illness or injuries
Certainly a case to be made for Haig to Giro but whilst I think the team are really pleased with his progress/showings; they are going to be cautious about overloading him too early. Hence I think they'll look to rest him up during the year and only send him to 1 GT. He's just came off a solid block of racing and would most probably have been out of gas by 3rd week. Tour not impossible but most likely he'll go to Vuelta
Gerrans, Albasini & Impey are all "like for like" and not sure sending all three to the one GT is a judicious use of such resources. 2/3 - yes. My vote would be Impey (who's the youngest and strongest in the mountains) & Albasini to Tour & Gerrans to Giro.
Last 2 Tour spots should go to Durbo and Hayman. Keukeleire is not completely out of the picture but he finished last season particularly strongly so why mess with what's clearly worked for him ?
yaco said:
I can certainly go with your argument re Gerrans. Don't think he's one who's going to be overly effective for day in/day out slog but he showed last season, both at Tour & at Vuelta, he can be very effective when called on for specific efforts & in set piece moves.
Agree the injuries to Impey, Cort & Durbridge plus Keukeleire missing recent races has cut back a number of their options significantly. Keukeleire may well have been down for Giro but would most certainly be pencilled in for Vuelta given that he closed out last season particularly strongly.
I'd have frankly gone Docker ahead of Tuft; Sveino's just no longer the tireless indestructable machine he was for so long so there's little difference on that front and Docker has greater utility as support for Ewan early on. Kluge has had recent illness plus Mezgec has greater overall utility.
Not worried too much about Power as we are grading him against his fellow "intake", Haig & Edmondson. One had an excellent neo pro year and looks to be building upon that & the other has had a stellar start to this year. In essence, this IS Power's neo-pro year rather than a second year and probably should be graded on that basis.
greenedge said:
Nah, Bewley has the job of Chaves' "minder" locked down. At this point, we'll take it as read that it will be both Chaves & SY to Tour. Howson & Kreuziger locks barring illness or injuries
Certainly a case to be made for Haig to Giro but whilst I think the team are really pleased with his progress/showings; they are going to be cautious about overloading him too early. Hence I think they'll look to rest him up during the year and only send him to 1 GT. He's just came off a solid block of racing and would most probably have been out of gas by 3rd week. Tour not impossible but most likely he'll go to Vuelta
Gerrans, Albasini & Impey are all "like for like" and not sure sending all three to the one GT is a judicious use of such resources. 2/3 - yes. My vote would be Impey (who's the youngest and strongest in the mountains) & Albasini to Tour & Gerrans to Giro.
Last 2 Tour spots should go to Durbo and Hayman. Keukeleire is not completely out of the picture but he finished last season particularly strongly so why mess with what's clearly worked for him ?
Agreed. An additional bonus is nobody is likely to mess with Hayman and Durbridge, Keukeleire doesn't quite have the same presence in the peloton. Also Hayman has superb positioning skills.
Re: Re:
The last time they raced there was 2014. Whether their non attendance in 2015 & 2016 was a case of non receiving an invite OR a choice by the team not to seek an invite I do not know but Tour of Cali was Women's WT last year and the Orica women's team didn't race so perhaps there has been no interest from sponsors to seek further visibility in that market.
They rode Tour of Turkey up to 2015 but not last year so its questionable that they will race it even if it goes ahead in October. They also skipped the Frankfurt WT one dayer on Monday. As for the other new WT races, they've ridden the past 2 Ride London Classics but I'm not sure they will this year with San Sebastian the day before and Tour of Poland starting the same day. However, commercial reasons plus the Chinese co-interest in their development team suggests that they will ride Tour of Guangxi in late October
swuzzlebubble said:
The last time they raced there was 2014. Whether their non attendance in 2015 & 2016 was a case of non receiving an invite OR a choice by the team not to seek an invite I do not know but Tour of Cali was Women's WT last year and the Orica women's team didn't race so perhaps there has been no interest from sponsors to seek further visibility in that market.
They rode Tour of Turkey up to 2015 but not last year so its questionable that they will race it even if it goes ahead in October. They also skipped the Frankfurt WT one dayer on Monday. As for the other new WT races, they've ridden the past 2 Ride London Classics but I'm not sure they will this year with San Sebastian the day before and Tour of Poland starting the same day. However, commercial reasons plus the Chinese co-interest in their development team suggests that they will ride Tour of Guangxi in late October
Re:
Think its probably its a bit too tough for him but the primary reason not to is that of logistics. They have a 'mandatory' race in Spain the previous day (San Sebastian) and another mandatory race starting the same day (Poland) and you are looking just a week out from the Vuelta. They still COULD enter it but they're not obligated to do so and they've already done their "fly the flag" exercise in the UK by riding Yorkshire
del1962 said:
Think its probably its a bit too tough for him but the primary reason not to is that of logistics. They have a 'mandatory' race in Spain the previous day (San Sebastian) and another mandatory race starting the same day (Poland) and you are looking just a week out from the Vuelta. They still COULD enter it but they're not obligated to do so and they've already done their "fly the flag" exercise in the UK by riding Yorkshire
Orica hasn't ridden in America for three years, and its likewise for the Women's team - They aren't riding the Tour of Guangzi or Turkey - Orica have already announced their team for the Hammer Series next month and Edmondson is backing up from the Giro - Apparently Edmondson was only notified on Saturday he was riding the Giro - This indicates that Cort was riding the Giro, hence his leading out Ewan in Stage 1 of the Giro.
Had to chuckle at Fotheringham's interview of A.Yates - The brothers are difficult interview subjects - It'd be interesting if the brothers ever rode the TDU.
Had to chuckle at Fotheringham's interview of A.Yates - The brothers are difficult interview subjects - It'd be interesting if the brothers ever rode the TDU.
If this team had a froome of the time they would be the best team in the WT. Pretty good for ole Australia
Re:
Can't, for the life of me, see any rational reason WHY either Yates would/should ride the TDU. They've already done the big PR gesture by sending Chaves (who's the one with the fan following) this year so they can get back to commonsense next season.
Maybe Cort has already signalled that he will be leaving at the end of this year but I really can't see any other reason why he should be playing servant to Ewan on anything other than a race circumstantial basis. It may prove useful experience for Edmondson but if ORS are willing to 'shaft' Cort (a rider who's characteristics are far more compatible with the teams current/future direction) in favour of Ewan then there is some really screwed up thinking in that organisation. As regards the latter's Giro prospects, yes he could snag a victory or two in the first week and a bit .... but this would most likely be due to mistakes by other better-supported/stronger sprinters rather than any dominance on his part.
yaco said:
Can't, for the life of me, see any rational reason WHY either Yates would/should ride the TDU. They've already done the big PR gesture by sending Chaves (who's the one with the fan following) this year so they can get back to commonsense next season.
Maybe Cort has already signalled that he will be leaving at the end of this year but I really can't see any other reason why he should be playing servant to Ewan on anything other than a race circumstantial basis. It may prove useful experience for Edmondson but if ORS are willing to 'shaft' Cort (a rider who's characteristics are far more compatible with the teams current/future direction) in favour of Ewan then there is some really screwed up thinking in that organisation. As regards the latter's Giro prospects, yes he could snag a victory or two in the first week and a bit .... but this would most likely be due to mistakes by other better-supported/stronger sprinters rather than any dominance on his part.
Re: Re:
Ah - You've read a few things into my post - Think Orica would love to have a Yates for the TDU, seeing its an important race in their calendar, though the Yates boys are not publicity friendly - Then again the Ashes Cricket is on this summer, so there could be motivation for the boys - I don't understand how you have your knickers in a knot over Cort - The expectation was Kluge would ride the Giro, seeing he has forged a good relationship with Ewan, so it was surprising to see Cort leading out Ewan at Yorkshire - Then combine that with Edmondson getting a start at the Giro, as late as last Saturday - You put two and two together, and it seems Cort was riding the Giro - Cort leading out Ewan in a race has no relationship with Cort staying or leaving Orica - After all, Cort and Ewan have had one race together - I'd be surprised if Cort leaves Orica, seeing he is developing well as a rider, and is given opportunities in races.
dirkprovin said:
Ah - You've read a few things into my post - Think Orica would love to have a Yates for the TDU, seeing its an important race in their calendar, though the Yates boys are not publicity friendly - Then again the Ashes Cricket is on this summer, so there could be motivation for the boys - I don't understand how you have your knickers in a knot over Cort - The expectation was Kluge would ride the Giro, seeing he has forged a good relationship with Ewan, so it was surprising to see Cort leading out Ewan at Yorkshire - Then combine that with Edmondson getting a start at the Giro, as late as last Saturday - You put two and two together, and it seems Cort was riding the Giro - Cort leading out Ewan in a race has no relationship with Cort staying or leaving Orica - After all, Cort and Ewan have had one race together - I'd be surprised if Cort leaves Orica, seeing he is developing well as a rider, and is given opportunities in races.
Re:
if there have been americans on the team, they have been few, we buy the canucks. usually, besides bewley, the kiwis end up at Slipstream, occasionally Tailwind like Rolly(Roulston).
we ride those Quebecois classics in September before the Worlds. But largely stay away from the US.
yaco said:
if there have been americans on the team, they have been few, we buy the canucks. usually, besides bewley, the kiwis end up at Slipstream, occasionally Tailwind like Rolly(Roulston).
we ride those Quebecois classics in September before the Worlds. But largely stay away from the US.
Re:
it is all Matt White. biggest error Vaughters ever made was letting this guy go. He completely mishandled Trent Lowe and the fiasco, and it ends w the Lowe-White d'affaire. Matt White is the most valuable actor in the WorldTour besides Sagan.
Scarponi said:
it is all Matt White. biggest error Vaughters ever made was letting this guy go. He completely mishandled Trent Lowe and the fiasco, and it ends w the Lowe-White d'affaire. Matt White is the most valuable actor in the WorldTour besides Sagan.
Re: Re:
Oh, I very much understand the situation re PR for ORS when it comes to the TDU ......... hence they brought out Chaves this year. It certainly "ticked that box"; as to whether it proves counter-productive to his season remains unanswered but if it does; at least they then know .... DON'T damned well do it again !! The Yates realistically don't have that level of following so there isn't that impetus. In any case, at least for next year they have the "Little Aussie Superstar" to soak up all the adulation :twisted:
I have no issue with Cort being called on to pull a lead out for Ewan IF it is decided on the road that he was going to be "the man" on that given day ... hence I said "race circumstantial". I would not agree with him being sent to a GT as designated lead out man for Ewan. I think he deserves better than that. I very much hope that Cort DOES stay at ORS as I rate his potential and I feel he, along with Edmondson, are likely to be the brand of quick men that the team can easily accomodate given their classics potential plus their greater utility to a GT team.
Ewan, to all intents and purposes, looks primarily a bunch kick man and I don't see that as being particularly compatible with ORS going forward .... which is the primary reason why I feel that he (and his management) should already be looking for a WT team where such pursuits ARE a primary focus. At such a team, he may very well prosper ..... and fair play to him if he does. There would no doubt be 'hue and cry" at ORS allowing that to happen but in cold reality, its almost certainly a favourable outcome for both parties
yaco said:
Oh, I very much understand the situation re PR for ORS when it comes to the TDU ......... hence they brought out Chaves this year. It certainly "ticked that box"; as to whether it proves counter-productive to his season remains unanswered but if it does; at least they then know .... DON'T damned well do it again !! The Yates realistically don't have that level of following so there isn't that impetus. In any case, at least for next year they have the "Little Aussie Superstar" to soak up all the adulation :twisted:
I have no issue with Cort being called on to pull a lead out for Ewan IF it is decided on the road that he was going to be "the man" on that given day ... hence I said "race circumstantial". I would not agree with him being sent to a GT as designated lead out man for Ewan. I think he deserves better than that. I very much hope that Cort DOES stay at ORS as I rate his potential and I feel he, along with Edmondson, are likely to be the brand of quick men that the team can easily accomodate given their classics potential plus their greater utility to a GT team.
Ewan, to all intents and purposes, looks primarily a bunch kick man and I don't see that as being particularly compatible with ORS going forward .... which is the primary reason why I feel that he (and his management) should already be looking for a WT team where such pursuits ARE a primary focus. At such a team, he may very well prosper ..... and fair play to him if he does. There would no doubt be 'hue and cry" at ORS allowing that to happen but in cold reality, its almost certainly a favourable outcome for both parties
Re: Re:
I doubt that Cort will be going to the Giro as Ewan's lead out man with Mezgec there. It's far more likely that he's going to be helping with positioning etc, and possibly sprinting himself on later stages similar to last year at the Vuelta.
Ewan should look at a team like Sunweb, as Matthews isn't a big bunch sprinter and they have resources they can devote to him. Lotto Soudal could be another good choice as an understudy for Greipel.
A growing number of riders have shown that it's more than possible to race the TDU and still have some very good results over the rest of the year, Porte in particular. If the rest of the season is balanced correctly it's a non issue.dirkprovin said:
I doubt that Cort will be going to the Giro as Ewan's lead out man with Mezgec there. It's far more likely that he's going to be helping with positioning etc, and possibly sprinting himself on later stages similar to last year at the Vuelta.
Ewan should look at a team like Sunweb, as Matthews isn't a big bunch sprinter and they have resources they can devote to him. Lotto Soudal could be another good choice as an understudy for Greipel.
Re: Re:
Agree fully with your last para.
I'd have no issue with a scenario as per your para 2. It would not have been a bad experience for him and he would be far more likely to handle winds and make selective finishes than Ewan.
Hhhmm, not sure that Richie is a conclusive case. Last year was the first year where he was actually bear the mark when it came to his "peak season" goals, Other years its been a case of him being the super-dom not the main act at the Tour OR he's misfired when its come to his main goal.
Yaco, with regards to Kluge; I'm not all that sold that he and Ewan had really got it together early season. With at least a couple of TDU stages, Ewan managed to lose his man's wheel but was able to get away with it, Peak season ..... 99.9% of the time you don't. Not sure that I'd have sent Kluge to Giro; aside from the sprint stages he is essentially excess baggage with only marginal utility whereas Mezgec has more versatility. If Kluge's Twitter is anything to go by, its not exactly clear whether he is currently a very happy camper
42x16ss said:
Agree fully with your last para.
I'd have no issue with a scenario as per your para 2. It would not have been a bad experience for him and he would be far more likely to handle winds and make selective finishes than Ewan.
Hhhmm, not sure that Richie is a conclusive case. Last year was the first year where he was actually bear the mark when it came to his "peak season" goals, Other years its been a case of him being the super-dom not the main act at the Tour OR he's misfired when its come to his main goal.
Yaco, with regards to Kluge; I'm not all that sold that he and Ewan had really got it together early season. With at least a couple of TDU stages, Ewan managed to lose his man's wheel but was able to get away with it, Peak season ..... 99.9% of the time you don't. Not sure that I'd have sent Kluge to Giro; aside from the sprint stages he is essentially excess baggage with only marginal utility whereas Mezgec has more versatility. If Kluge's Twitter is anything to go by, its not exactly clear whether he is currently a very happy camper
Re: Re:
Ah - Hadn't read Kluge's twitter - Thought he was replaced for PR at the last minute because of illness/injury but obviously not - And he was pulled from the Giro at the last minute - Anyway it was a strange end to stage 1 - Postleburger who was the second lead out rider, peels off with 2kms to go, and no-one can chase him down - Lotto-Soudal and Etix had no lead out men - Orica is leading out with Juul-Jensen and Edmondson with Mezgec nowhere to be seen - Maybe A.Yates should have done the lead out - We can say it was a messy sprint.
Finally did you notice Hayman on the Giro's pre-race coverage - Could retirement be beckoning.
yaco said:
Ah - Hadn't read Kluge's twitter - Thought he was replaced for PR at the last minute because of illness/injury but obviously not - And he was pulled from the Giro at the last minute - Anyway it was a strange end to stage 1 - Postleburger who was the second lead out rider, peels off with 2kms to go, and no-one can chase him down - Lotto-Soudal and Etix had no lead out men - Orica is leading out with Juul-Jensen and Edmondson with Mezgec nowhere to be seen - Maybe A.Yates should have done the lead out - We can say it was a messy sprint.
Finally did you notice Hayman on the Giro's pre-race coverage - Could retirement be beckoning.
Re: Re:
Kluge WAS apparently ill in early April but that Tweet has one thinking something else has gone awry.
Dunno what happened with Mezgec, was there a mechanical otherwise ORS, like other teams with sprint aspirations, made a royal balls-up of things. Joker is a versatile rider and capable of some power but he really shouldn't be called on at that point. Asking one helluva lot of Edmondson (who is essentially a first year pro when it comes to the road) to instantly become be right on cue as a lead-out man. He's got first rate accelleration which can break open a gap, a great asset, but is still green tactically. As for others tailing off; Sveino had every right (stupendous work but WTF are you burning all his petrol tickets this early, you're still going to need that grunt through the full 3 weeks) but the others were clearly riding poor position
What did Hayman say ? The sound card on my laptop has had the fritz so I can't listen to any audio.
yaco said:
Kluge WAS apparently ill in early April but that Tweet has one thinking something else has gone awry.
Dunno what happened with Mezgec, was there a mechanical otherwise ORS, like other teams with sprint aspirations, made a royal balls-up of things. Joker is a versatile rider and capable of some power but he really shouldn't be called on at that point. Asking one helluva lot of Edmondson (who is essentially a first year pro when it comes to the road) to instantly become be right on cue as a lead-out man. He's got first rate accelleration which can break open a gap, a great asset, but is still green tactically. As for others tailing off; Sveino had every right (stupendous work but WTF are you burning all his petrol tickets this early, you're still going to need that grunt through the full 3 weeks) but the others were clearly riding poor position
What did Hayman say ? The sound card on my laptop has had the fritz so I can't listen to any audio.
Hayman did another stint on the coverage today - Seems he is riding in 2018 and most probably the 2017 TDF - Scared to post about Ewan after today's sprint finish - Have a question - Could Ewan be an OTL in the first ITT - he's nearly the worst TTerin the peleton and this one is a bit hilly, though he's climbing better in 2017.
Re:
He's OK with a very short prologue but that's it. His endurance has improved, as evidenced by him making it to the finish at MSR however I wouldn't take THAT as evidence that his climbing has made any marked improvement. They didnt hit the Cipressa hard nor the Poggio hence the near full mass sprint. OTL .... not sure of that but down the bottom of the timesheets, a fairly sure bet
yaco said:
He's OK with a very short prologue but that's it. His endurance has improved, as evidenced by him making it to the finish at MSR however I wouldn't take THAT as evidence that his climbing has made any marked improvement. They didnt hit the Cipressa hard nor the Poggio hence the near full mass sprint. OTL .... not sure of that but down the bottom of the timesheets, a fairly sure bet
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