[Green Edge] Shayne Bannan, Gerry Ryan and an Aussie Pro Team for 2012?

[dirkprovin]

According to Orica's post stage spiel: " I will continue the Giro day-by-day. When I feel myself too deep in fatigue it will be time to stop and focus on the other races I have coming up.”

OK then but it should be on the basis of no manpower being diverted to assist him. If he cannot hold onto the gruppetto then you're on your own.

 

[RedheadDane]

Edmondson might stay with him, seems to be the Ewan bodyguard for this Giro.
Let's just hope they manage to "check out" a bit later than they did during stage 11...

 

[SlickMongoose]

Re:

Edmondson might stay with him, seems to be the Ewan bodyguard for this Giro.
Let's just hope they manage to "check out" a bit later than they did during stage 11...

The next two stages shouldn't be a problem, but 16 is likely to be very difficult for them to make the time cut.

 

[dirkprovin]

Re:

Edmondson might stay with him, seems to be the Ewan bodyguard for this Giro.
Let's just hope they manage to "check out" a bit later than they did during stage 11...

Would be surprised if that's the case. Edmondson is essentially a neo-pro, having missed 85% of 2016 road season due to track, so his endurance of survivability would probably be below that of Ewan. Think they'll either exit him now or at latest after Sunday's stage.

 

[yaco]

The longer Edmondson and Ewan survive the better for their long term development - Edmondson should hold on better in the mountains, seeing he skipped up the bergs well at Ronde De Vlaanderen.

 

[dirkprovin]

Re:

The longer Edmondson and Ewan survive the better for their long term development - Edmondson should hold on better in the mountains, seeing he skipped up the bergs well at Ronde De Vlaanderen.

Those are one day races and those were hills; steep ones I will grant you and some of them cobbled. Here we are starting to talk mountains and we're now getting on for 2 weeks of racing stages of mostly >200km each. Quite some difference. Long term, I might tend to agree that Edmondson may have the better survivability but I wouldn't go pushing it this year. He's probably well overdue for a good break

You keep harping on about "better for their long term development" but you need to weigh that up against the existing race situation they are faced with. WERE ORS not racing for GC, then they have the full freedom to go down that road but that is NOT the situation at this point. Matt White has already wasted enough of his team's energy needlessly slaving on the front of the race; they need to box much much more astutely from here in with regards to using the team

Whilst Yates is clearly out of the running for a podium, a position well inside the top 10 is still very much there to play for and the WT points for that are certainly not worth sneezing at .... they're considerably in advance of what Ewan has brought in. Ewan & Edmondson are essentially unproductive assets from now on in offering next to no utility as assistance to Yates. I'd be dragging them Sunday night after stg15 at the latest.

 

[RedheadDane]

Having the majority of riders help Yates, and having Ewan and Edmondson run their own little show in the back aren't really mutually exclusive. Not like those two will be of much help in the mountains anyway, so it's no harm having them ride with the grupetto.

 

[dirkprovin]

Re:

Having the majority of riders help Yates, and having Ewan and Edmondson run their own little show in the back aren't really mutually exclusive. Not like those two will be of much help in the mountains anyway, so it's no harm having them ride with the grupetto.

Fairly pointless though SHOULD they go past the final restday and hit the really hard stuff .... and one, if not both, will most likely find hanging onto the grupetto problematic at best.

For Edmondson, I'd drag him now as we're going to start hitting "turf" where he's going to be right out of his depth and we need to remember he is, to all effects, a neo-pro and a non climbing one at that. For next year's GT's, he will then have a full road season behind him. Then perhaps they start looking at how his various capabilities (and liabilities) stand and which GTs will be the best fit for him/what role(s) and his survivability prospects.

 

[RedheadDane]

Why is it pointless? As yaco said; it'll help them develop on a personal level (or is it on personal levels, since they're two of them?), and since it won't harm Yates' plan, why not let them continue? Or pull Edmondson, but let Ewan continue - maybe helped by some of the other non-climbers on the team - he's started three GTs so far - including this one - and finished none, I'd say it's about time he finishes one, or at least tries to for as long as he can.
Obviously he hasn't finished this one... but why not let him have the chance of this being the one he does?

 

[dirkprovin]

Re:

Why is it pointless? As yaco said; it'll help them develop on a personal level (or is it on personal levels, since they're two of them?), and since it won't harm Yates' plan, why not let them continue? Or pull Edmondson, but let Ewan continue - maybe helped by some of the other non-climbers on the team - he's started three GTs so far - including this one - and finished none, I'd say it's about time he finishes one, or at least tries to for as long as he can.
Obviously he hasn't finished this one... but why not let him have the chance of this being the one he does?

Personal development is great ..... but they need to be judicious as to where and to what extent. If this was the OLD Orica of 2 years ago, I wouldn't be debating this at all but Orica is no longer that team.

Matt White has already probably "overinvested" team resources on Ewan for this race; there is no way in hell that they should risk an OTL for a rider that CAN make the time cut/CAN go full distance and furthermore WILL be called on for the rest of the race for the sake of "excess baggage". If they so choose to let Ewan continue, then so be it ..... but don't waste any resources on him

If anything, this Giro should have taught them that pursuing GC at a GT PLUS supporting Ewan to the extent that he really needs are just not mutually compatible. Questions to be asked for both Ewan/his manager & Orica hierarchy going forward are (1) will he be better served at a team where he will be the main man as regards producing their results. (2) Outside of GT sprints & stages at one weekers, there are very few classics within his likely gamut whereas Orica's other young quick men (incl Edmondson) look more classic oriented. Which way will they weigh that up ?

 

[RedheadDane]

Nobody's is suggesting they should waste resources on Ewan. But what would be with having the other "heavy guys" keep him company - so to speak - down in the grupetto?

 

[dirkprovin]

Re:

Nobody's is suggesting they should waste resources on Ewan. But what would be with having the other "heavy guys" keep him company - so to speak - down in the grupetto?

OK, lets assume that he males it through the next 2 stages; a scenario that has some credibility given there aren't the multiple climbs of the final week. But then we get to the final week where we will be seeing multiple climbs per stage.

Firstly, Ewan will almost certainly be dropped much earlier than they will then secondly, there is the other high liklihood that he will eventually find it problematic to even hold onto the grupetto. Should that happen, my point is that the attitude needs to be "so long, farewell, auf wiedersehen & good night", don't waste a pedal stroke trying to rescue him

 

[42x16ss]

Re: Re:

Nobody's is suggesting they should waste resources on Ewan. But what would be with having the other "heavy guys" keep him company - so to speak - down in the grupetto?

OK, lets assume that he males it through the next 2 stages; a scenario that has some credibility given there aren't the multiple climbs of the final week. But then we get to the final week where we will be seeing multiple climbs per stage.

Firstly, Ewan will almost certainly be dropped much earlier than they will then secondly, there is the other high liklihood that he will eventually find it problematic to even hold onto the grupetto. Should that happen, my point is that the attitude needs to be "so long, farewell, auf wiedersehen & good night", don't waste a pedal stroke trying to rescue him

They aren't already. I also suspect that this is why Edmondson was selected as well, as it's his first GT and he's not really climber either they'll be keeping company. If Ewan and/or Edmondson check out early and finish OTL or in the broom wagon Orica will expect them to take it as a learning experience. They're now almost singularly focused on Yates, Plaza or Verona getting a stage win.

Like I said in the Ewan vs Gaviria thread, Docker or Kluge should have gone instead of Edmondson IMO, with Edmondson riding the Vuelta.

 

[dirkprovin]

Re: Re:

Nobody's is suggesting they should waste resources on Ewan. But what would be with having the other "heavy guys" keep him company - so to speak - down in the grupetto?

OK, lets assume that he males it through the next 2 stages; a scenario that has some credibility given there aren't the multiple climbs of the final week. But then we get to the final week where we will be seeing multiple climbs per stage.

Firstly, Ewan will almost certainly be dropped much earlier than they will then secondly, there is the other high liklihood that he will eventually find it problematic to even hold onto the grupetto. Should that happen, my point is that the attitude needs to be "so long, farewell, auf wiedersehen & good night", don't waste a pedal stroke trying to rescue him

They aren't already. I also suspect that this is why Edmondson was selected as well, as it's his first GT and he's not really climber either they'll be keeping company. If Ewan and/or Edmondson check out early and finish OTL or in the broom wagon Orica will expect them to take it as a learning experience. They're now almost singularly focused on Yates, Plaza or Verona getting a stage win.

Like I said in the Ewan vs Gaviria thread, Docker or Kluge should have gone instead of Edmondson IMO, with Edmondson riding the Vuelta.

No real disagreement with your first para nor your contention that Edmondson really shouldn't have been selected. Only quibble would be with regards to sending him to the Vuelta; Cort will be going to that one but not as an out n out sprinter but rather like last year as a quick guy who can freelance plus be of genuine utility to the GC campaign. For the Tour, there's not likely to be any sprinter as such but quickish guys ala Impey may be given occ license to freelance at some finishes.

Edmondson at Vuelta would just be essentially the excess baggage at this one that he's been at the Giro. He's had an excellent (de facto) neo pro year but Orica's licence to give GT airings to neo-pros is now significantly less than in the past. Likewise, I would not remotely consider giving Power a GT start this year; he just hasn't the race mileage; he hasn't yet shown any significant performance and would therefore just be excess baggage. It worked for Haig last year on the grounds that he was a year older/more physically mature than some and being a climber, he could be of genuine utility at certain points.

 

[yaco]

Their must be judicious team selection for the Vuelta if Orica select the 3 GC riders - Stage is a TTT over 15kms - You don't win the race in the TTT, but you can lose it as evidenced by Contador in 2016 - I suppose having 3 GC riders means you can fill your team with strong rouleurs - It will be an interesting dilemma.

 

[dirkprovin]

Re:

Their must be judicious team selection for the Vuelta if Orica select the 3 GC riders - Stage is a TTT over 15kms - You don't win the race in the TTT, but you can lose it as evidenced by Contador in 2016 - I suppose having 3 GC riders means you can fill your team with strong rouleurs - It will be an interesting dilemma.

Really don't think the 3 GC riders to the one GT is anything more than a media smoke signal. Just isn't gunna happen. Think it'll be Chaves (probably as main man) plus one of the Yates (probably Adam). Chaves was up for doing turns in last year's Vuelta TTT so he's no longer a liability in this discipline. The 2 GC men shouldn't weaken the TTT too badly; they're unlikely to win but neither should they be likely to haemorrage major deficits.

Think a line-up something along the lines of last year's Vuelta squad could be viable with Howson as a chief mountains lieutenant. If Howson goes too deep at Tour and can't back up then one of Verona/Plaza will replace. If Howson is in, the 2nd line mountains support could most likely be Haig. As for "rouleurs", one out of the trio of Albasini/Impey/Gerrans plus Keukeleire unless he's subbed into the Tour squad then Cort plus 2 "hard grunt" men.

 

[RedheadDane]

I'll never understand why they didn't keep Simon in the Giro.
2x Yates in the Giro.
Chaves + S. Yates in the Tour.
Chaves + A. Yates in the Vuelta.
2-2-2, seems like a pretty even way to do it...

Now it seems like they're going with a 1-2-3 approach... with their original plan of course being the 2-1-3 approach.

 

[jaylew]

Re:

I'll never understand why they didn't keep Simon in the Giro.
2x Yates in the Giro.
Chaves + S. Yates in the Tour.
Chaves + A. Yates in the Vuelta.
2-2-2, seems like a pretty even way to do it...

Now it seems like they're going with a 1-2-3 approach... with their original plan of course being the 2-1-3 approach.

Sounded like they were concerned Chaves might not be a factor in the Tour because of his injury and they really want to go for GC in all 3 GTs this year.

 

[RedheadDane]

I know that's why they sent Simon to the Tour (or are gonna send him, they obviously haven't sent him there yet), But why not have him to both the Giro and the Tour (and then not the Vuelta)?
Just like Adam is doing the Giro and the Vuelta, and Chaves is doing to Tour and the Vuelta.

 

[dirkprovin]

Whilst I agree that a 2-2-2 should/would've been the logical and sensible way to go; Chaves' injury and the still unresolved issue of whether he'll be too "underdone" to be competitive at the Tour blew a hole in that one. They DID probably have to send TLAS to one GT as well so it was also a case of how do we juggle that.

As for the 3 GC men to Vuelta, probably safest to treat that statement as just a load of "bovine by-product" rather than anything serious. AY, having had the busier first part of the season will be rested post Giro so he should be fresh enough for Vuelta and can slot into "main man" duties if Chaves' issues aren't resolved. SY is being rested up for TDF, again he can step up to main man if Chaves is doubtful and could potentially back up as 2nd line at Vuelta

 

[RedheadDane]

Chaves' injury was what forced them to send Simon to the Tour. Originally it was gonna be 2 (Yateses) at the Giro, 1 (Chaves) at the Tour, and 3 (all of them) at the Vuelta.

 

[yaco]

Re:

I'll never understand why they didn't keep Simon in the Giro.
2x Yates in the Giro.
Chaves + S. Yates in the Tour.
Chaves + A. Yates in the Vuelta.
2-2-2, seems like a pretty even way to do it...

Now it seems like they're going with a 1-2-3 approach... with their original plan of course being the 2-1-3 approach.

It was because each had their main target even though they will all ride 2 GT's - Adam was the Giro, Chaves TDF and Simon the Vuelta - It was easier to switch Simon to the TDF as he was less advanced in his program than Adam who was never changing from the Giro - Orica was worried because in the past, Adam's form tails off at the end of July - That's why Adam's main goal was the Giro - Apparently there were lots of behind the scenes discussions to arrange the changes - We shouldn't kid ourselves but Chaves is using the TDF for training.

Actually this gets to an interesting discussion who is currently better Adam or Simon ? I doubt there is much difference between the brothers at this stage - Think Simon is a more explosive climber and more tactically savvy, while Adam is probably stronger in the day-to-day grind of GC racing.

 

[RedheadDane]

That still doesn't explain why they couldn't have kept Simon in the Giro - with Adam of course being the main focus - and having him do the Tour too, but then not do the Vuelta.

 

[yaco]

Re:

I'll never understand why they didn't keep Simon in the Giro.
2x Yates in the Giro.
Chaves + S. Yates in the Tour.
Chaves + A. Yates in the Vuelta.
2-2-2, seems like a pretty even way to do it...

Now it seems like they're going with a 1-2-3 approach... with their original plan of course being the 2-1-3 approach.

It was because each had their main target even though they will all ride 2 GT's - Adam was the Giro, Chaves TDF and Simon the Vuelta - It was easier to switch Simon to the TDF as he was less advanced in his program than Adam who was never changing from the Giro - Orica was worried because in the past, Adam's form tails off at the end of July - That's why Adam's main goal was the Giro - Apparently there were lots of behind the scenes discussions to arrange the changes - We shouldn't kid ourselves but Chaves is using the TDF for training.

Actually this gets to an interesting discussion who is currently better Adam or Simon ? I doubt there is much difference between the brothers at this stage - Think Simon is a more explosive climber and more tactically savvy, while Adam is probably stronger in the day-to-day grind of GC racing.

 

[yaco]

Noticed that Hepburn has done next to no work this Giro - Never had his nose in the wind - I can't imagine he''ll much to do next week.