-
The Cycling News forum is looking to add some volunteer moderators with Red Rick's recent retirement. If you're interested in helping keep our discussions on track, send a direct message to
In the meanwhile, please use the Report option if you see a post that doesn't fit within the forum rules.
Thanks!
Re: Re:
Interesting !! Hayman certainly adds an old experienced and shrewd tactical head and maybe they are looking at him as "road captain" letting the likes of Albasini, Keukeleire and perhaps Impey & Kreuziger in certain circumstances be given licence to contest certain finishes/go up the road.
Would have to think Bewley to Vuelta as Chaves' minder and Gerrans most likely as the road captain.
Keukeleire I would have thought would've been for the Vuelta where he's ridden well the past 2 years but he is a highly versatile rider and given sound health, should deliver value
My one slight concern actually concerns Howson's selection. IF it is the case that Chaves' main objective is going to be the Vuelta then it would then make more sense to then have his key lieutenant ride it with him rather than have him expend energy for far less purpose at the Tour and thus not be available when he would be of best utility. I suppose it now means that Plaza or Verona (quite possibly both) will be the main mountain supports to Chaves & AY at Vuelta. If Plaza rides at this Giro level then that's perfectly satisfactory; Verona .... still has more to prove
swuzzlebubble said:
Interesting !! Hayman certainly adds an old experienced and shrewd tactical head and maybe they are looking at him as "road captain" letting the likes of Albasini, Keukeleire and perhaps Impey & Kreuziger in certain circumstances be given licence to contest certain finishes/go up the road.
Would have to think Bewley to Vuelta as Chaves' minder and Gerrans most likely as the road captain.
Keukeleire I would have thought would've been for the Vuelta where he's ridden well the past 2 years but he is a highly versatile rider and given sound health, should deliver value
My one slight concern actually concerns Howson's selection. IF it is the case that Chaves' main objective is going to be the Vuelta then it would then make more sense to then have his key lieutenant ride it with him rather than have him expend energy for far less purpose at the Tour and thus not be available when he would be of best utility. I suppose it now means that Plaza or Verona (quite possibly both) will be the main mountain supports to Chaves & AY at Vuelta. If Plaza rides at this Giro level then that's perfectly satisfactory; Verona .... still has more to prove
Re:
All three GC men at Vuelta ...... just plain crazy and most likely M.White talking out of his blowhole so one of the Yates (most likely SY) will probably be an 'out'. There is a TTT to start so they may look to add a rouleur to bolster the side in that regard.
swuzzlebubble said:
All three GC men at Vuelta ...... just plain crazy and most likely M.White talking out of his blowhole so one of the Yates (most likely SY) will probably be an 'out'. There is a TTT to start so they may look to add a rouleur to bolster the side in that regard.
Re: [Green Edge] Shayne Bannan, Gerry Ryan and an Aussie Pro
TDF squad is the best that could chosen in the circumstances. White will make the tough decisions as evidenced in Giro and TDF.
Bank it in certainties for Vuelta
A.Yates
Chaves
Bewley
Tuft
Plaza
Cort
Have to be careful with selection with the TTT.
TDF squad is the best that could chosen in the circumstances. White will make the tough decisions as evidenced in Giro and TDF.
Bank it in certainties for Vuelta
A.Yates
Chaves
Bewley
Tuft
Plaza
Cort
Have to be careful with selection with the TTT.
Re: [Green Edge] Shayne Bannan, Gerry Ryan and an Aussie Pro
Haig will come in due to his climbing utility; has also shown himself to be a reasonably strong TTer so he's not likely to let the side down in the TTT.
Tuft ?? Not sure that he's necessarily a "banker". WILL certainly strengthen the TTT but otherwise his utility is less obvious as I doubt they will be chasing the red jersey early in the race nor will they necessarily be wanting to waste energy having men on the front of the peleton too often esp earlier in the race.
It was the waste of so much energy during the Giro that has me questioning White's tactical nous ..... which also then flows onto his selection calls. It's not a BAD team that has been selected for the Tour but I'd have probably taken Howson out of the Tour and saved him for Vuelta and perhaps given Haig the run alongside Chaves at the Tour. A tough call but I think White is trying to have an "each way bet" re GC with Chaves and I'm not sure his condition is such that he's going to be able to ride himself into contention like he was able to at last year's Vuelta.
yaco said:
Haig will come in due to his climbing utility; has also shown himself to be a reasonably strong TTer so he's not likely to let the side down in the TTT.
Tuft ?? Not sure that he's necessarily a "banker". WILL certainly strengthen the TTT but otherwise his utility is less obvious as I doubt they will be chasing the red jersey early in the race nor will they necessarily be wanting to waste energy having men on the front of the peleton too often esp earlier in the race.
It was the waste of so much energy during the Giro that has me questioning White's tactical nous ..... which also then flows onto his selection calls. It's not a BAD team that has been selected for the Tour but I'd have probably taken Howson out of the Tour and saved him for Vuelta and perhaps given Haig the run alongside Chaves at the Tour. A tough call but I think White is trying to have an "each way bet" re GC with Chaves and I'm not sure his condition is such that he's going to be able to ride himself into contention like he was able to at last year's Vuelta.
Re:
That would be perfectly fine IF it were on the basis that Howson can "clock off" and soft pedal home as Chaves may well do during the Tour but that's not likely to be the case as he'll almost certainly be called on in service of AY as well. Maybe not on every mountain stage but at very least, he will be having to burn a significant quota of fuel tickets during the Tour that he won't have in stock come Vuelta.
Valv.Piti said:
That would be perfectly fine IF it were on the basis that Howson can "clock off" and soft pedal home as Chaves may well do during the Tour but that's not likely to be the case as he'll almost certainly be called on in service of AY as well. Maybe not on every mountain stage but at very least, he will be having to burn a significant quota of fuel tickets during the Tour that he won't have in stock come Vuelta.
Re: [Green Edge] Shayne Bannan, Gerry Ryan and an Aussie Pro
Sorry forgot about Haig
He is confirmed for the Vuelta.
.
dirkprovin said:
Sorry forgot about Haig
He is confirmed for the Vuelta.
.
Re:
Seems that is NOT the case. 9 Orica riders will be starting their National RR today including Albasini (SUI), Kreuziger (CZE) & Keukeleire (BEL). Others will be: Tuft (CAN), Verona (SPA), Mezgec (SLO), Kluge (GER), Cort & Juul-Jensen (DEN).
yaco said:
Seems that is NOT the case. 9 Orica riders will be starting their National RR today including Albasini (SUI), Kreuziger (CZE) & Keukeleire (BEL). Others will be: Tuft (CAN), Verona (SPA), Mezgec (SLO), Kluge (GER), Cort & Juul-Jensen (DEN).
Re: Re:
Will be good if Orica riders can win one or two titles.
Can see a few riders possibly not riding a GT in 2017. Will Gerrans get a ride. Kluge and Docker are out of favor. Will Bewley get a ride
dirkprovin said:
Will be good if Orica riders can win one or two titles.
Can see a few riders possibly not riding a GT in 2017. Will Gerrans get a ride. Kluge and Docker are out of favor. Will Bewley get a ride
Re: Re:
Hard to judge their relative prospects without knowing the characteristics of the various courses. Albasini has sometimes been thereabouts for the SUI RR title but just falling short. Kreuziger is the defending CZE RR champ but is he in the same shape this year ?
Would tend to think that Bewley, at least, will get a run at the Vuelta given his connection to Chaves ... it may've been that they are wanting his hand to heal fully. Agree Kluge & possibly Docker look "on the outer"; their only chance would most likely come if Cort announces he's leaving at the end of the year and gets "pulled" from the Vuelta line-up as a result but I doubt they'd take a bunch sprinter in any case.
yaco said:
Hard to judge their relative prospects without knowing the characteristics of the various courses. Albasini has sometimes been thereabouts for the SUI RR title but just falling short. Kreuziger is the defending CZE RR champ but is he in the same shape this year ?
Would tend to think that Bewley, at least, will get a run at the Vuelta given his connection to Chaves ... it may've been that they are wanting his hand to heal fully. Agree Kluge & possibly Docker look "on the outer"; their only chance would most likely come if Cort announces he's leaving at the end of the year and gets "pulled" from the Vuelta line-up as a result but I doubt they'd take a bunch sprinter in any case.
Re: Re:
Kluge 6th and Verona 72nd at this stage. Add Keukeliere fourth.
Bank it in that Cort is staying.
dirkprovin said:
Kluge 6th and Verona 72nd at this stage. Add Keukeliere fourth.
Bank it in that Cort is staying.
Re: Re:
Mezgec won the Slovenian RR title so that's one national title. Would have zero issue with him being retained no matter what may transpire with Ewan next season. Mezgec is a worthwhile enough rider in his own right in that he can collect results for himself as well as his versatility with regards to team utility.
I'd be exceptionally critical of Orica hierarchy if they DID let Cort be lured away by anything other than "an offer he couldm't refuse" $$$wise. He and Edmondson are the 2 young classics/quick guys they should be investing in for the next couple of seasons.
yaco said:
Mezgec won the Slovenian RR title so that's one national title. Would have zero issue with him being retained no matter what may transpire with Ewan next season. Mezgec is a worthwhile enough rider in his own right in that he can collect results for himself as well as his versatility with regards to team utility.
I'd be exceptionally critical of Orica hierarchy if they DID let Cort be lured away by anything other than "an offer he couldm't refuse" $$$wise. He and Edmondson are the 2 young classics/quick guys they should be investing in for the next couple of seasons.
My Vuelta team would be:
A.Yates
Chaves
Kreuziger/Howson/Verona
Gerrans
Haig
Plaza
Cort
Kluge
Hepburn
A.Yates
Chaves
Kreuziger/Howson/Verona
Gerrans
Haig
Plaza
Cort
Kluge
Hepburn
Re:
Not a bad Vueta line-up. I'd have Kluge out and Mezgec in as he is far more versatile. Bewley would be my big flat-land grunt engine but Hepburn would certainly be a reasonable back-up option.
Kreuziger/Howson/Verona ? Ideally I would lean Howson on this one given his Chaves connection but much will revolve on just how deep he had to go during the Tour as to how well he can back-up. If Chaves backed off GC for the Tour then that would mitigate in favour of Howson. Kreuziger will almost certainly be riding as SY's lieutenant and given SY will most likely be the prime GC focus; he will most likely have to dig considerably deeper than Howson may. Verona probably only comes in if both Howson & Kreuziger are "spent articles" after the Tour
greenedge said:
Not a bad Vueta line-up. I'd have Kluge out and Mezgec in as he is far more versatile. Bewley would be my big flat-land grunt engine but Hepburn would certainly be a reasonable back-up option.
Kreuziger/Howson/Verona ? Ideally I would lean Howson on this one given his Chaves connection but much will revolve on just how deep he had to go during the Tour as to how well he can back-up. If Chaves backed off GC for the Tour then that would mitigate in favour of Howson. Kreuziger will almost certainly be riding as SY's lieutenant and given SY will most likely be the prime GC focus; he will most likely have to dig considerably deeper than Howson may. Verona probably only comes in if both Howson & Kreuziger are "spent articles" after the Tour
Re:
Howson rode 2 GT's last season so unless he is completely cooked after the TDF I'd expect him to follow Chaves to the Vuelta.
Valv.Piti said:
Howson rode 2 GT's last season so unless he is completely cooked after the TDF I'd expect him to follow Chaves to the Vuelta.
Re: Re:
Difference being that there is a near 3 month gap between Giro and Vuelta whereas the turn-around between Tour & Vuelta is less than a month; hence I see his Vuelta inclusion being conditional on how hard he and Chaves rode the Tour on a day to day basis.\
Don't think it'll be the case that Keukeleire will contest all the flat sprints at the Tour but rather that he and/or Albasini or Impey may contest more selective finishes where some of the pure sprinters have been dropped.
StryderHells said:
Difference being that there is a near 3 month gap between Giro and Vuelta whereas the turn-around between Tour & Vuelta is less than a month; hence I see his Vuelta inclusion being conditional on how hard he and Chaves rode the Tour on a day to day basis.\
Kafviar said:
Don't think it'll be the case that Keukeleire will contest all the flat sprints at the Tour but rather that he and/or Albasini or Impey may contest more selective finishes where some of the pure sprinters have been dropped.
Re: Re:
Even if riding Tour full gas people are still very able at La Vuelta, so that's really not an issue. Anyway why not Kreuziger instead of Plaza, or Gerrans, or Kluge?dirkprovin said:
Re: Re:
Plausible scenario but would not one of the peak clauses in his contract be that he ride the Tour, at least in year 1 of his contract ? He has ridden primarily alongside SY at the one weekers, far less with Chaves & AY who are likely to be the GC men at the Vuelta.
Plaza rode exceptionally well in support of AY at the Giro so rested up, I would think he would be a preferred support option for the Vuelta in any case.
Gerrans, I agree, is not a dead certain selection ..... maybe he could lose out to Kreuziger if they really want to with 3 major mountain support man but that may hinge on how Kreuziger looks coming out of the Tour. Something that none of us can know at this point.
Kluge .... I would not be surprised if he doesn't make any GT line-up. Some suggestions that he has not been a particularly "happy camper" and in any case, is a far less versatile rider than Mezgec who can not only provide support for Cort but is far more useful in the hills.
Kokoso said:
Plausible scenario but would not one of the peak clauses in his contract be that he ride the Tour, at least in year 1 of his contract ? He has ridden primarily alongside SY at the one weekers, far less with Chaves & AY who are likely to be the GC men at the Vuelta.
Plaza rode exceptionally well in support of AY at the Giro so rested up, I would think he would be a preferred support option for the Vuelta in any case.
Gerrans, I agree, is not a dead certain selection ..... maybe he could lose out to Kreuziger if they really want to with 3 major mountain support man but that may hinge on how Kreuziger looks coming out of the Tour. Something that none of us can know at this point.
Kluge .... I would not be surprised if he doesn't make any GT line-up. Some suggestions that he has not been a particularly "happy camper" and in any case, is a far less versatile rider than Mezgec who can not only provide support for Cort but is far more useful in the hills.
Re: Re:
Regarding rest of your post, I don't think Plaza was so great at Giro that you wouldn't consider another rider for another race. It seems that you rely on "pairing" too much; these are professionals, Kreuziger can support A. Yates as well as Plaza and rode races in Adam's support, too. That one rider rode good race with another rider in one race doesn't automaticaly mean he's the best option for another race. On the top of that, resting between Tour and Vuelta shows up not to be all that important. Furthermore, there won't be only Adam Yates but Chaves, too and he'll need support, too.
BTW Kreuziger is versatile rider, useful in mountains, hills and on the flat.
This question doesn't make a sense in the context of what I've written, so I suppose you've misread me. BTW you've misread my words in the Kreuziger thread for sure some time ago.dirkprovin said:
Regarding rest of your post, I don't think Plaza was so great at Giro that you wouldn't consider another rider for another race. It seems that you rely on "pairing" too much; these are professionals, Kreuziger can support A. Yates as well as Plaza and rode races in Adam's support, too. That one rider rode good race with another rider in one race doesn't automaticaly mean he's the best option for another race. On the top of that, resting between Tour and Vuelta shows up not to be all that important. Furthermore, there won't be only Adam Yates but Chaves, too and he'll need support, too.
BTW Kreuziger is versatile rider, useful in mountains, hills and on the flat.
Re: Re:
Yes, Kreuziger COULD do this but the issue of pairing/connection between riders DOES have relevance where there is a clear record of the lead rider and their support rider working productively/successfully together. Case in point being Chaves & Howson at both Giro & Vueta last year (even arguably 2015 Vuelta). Personally, given that Chaves is NOT realistically going to GC contend at the Tour; I would have held Howson back to ride the Vuelta fresh but Orica Hierarchy have decided differently
Plaza DID ride particularly well in support of AY at the Giro; whilst not a "slam dunk" it is at least a strong point in his favour. Yes, riders ARE professionals and can be expected to ride with anyone .... but teams DO make calls on whom they look to team up together and this season, it has looked to be SY with Kreuziger at the one weekers apart from the abortive T-A outing with AY & Chaves also riding Dauphine. This may not have been Orica's original intention for the season but with Chaves being sidelined for 2-3 months, this is at least how the season has played out.
I would have no issue should Kreuziger be selected but they will most likely already have the likes of Howson & Haig in the line-up ... and I suspect Plaza will be there. Two of them should be "fresh" (Haig & Plaza) and I'd suspect that Howson may be not be as heavily worked at the Tour as Kreuziger. Therefore I'd see him as a "nice to have" rather than a "must have" with regards to Vuelta selection. If he's come out of the Tour in good shape/no illness then I'd be happy to "green light" his selection
What seems clear to me is that you are a Kreuziger "partisan" .... I'm not critcising you for that. What I do find irritating is that you seem to look for offence/slights against him where none was either intended or expressed ! Perhaps this may be just issues of language/translation or maybe we just view through different lenses; your's as a fan of a specific rider whereas I do not see myself as a partisan of any particular rider of any nationality or any team.
Kokoso said:
Yes, Kreuziger COULD do this but the issue of pairing/connection between riders DOES have relevance where there is a clear record of the lead rider and their support rider working productively/successfully together. Case in point being Chaves & Howson at both Giro & Vueta last year (even arguably 2015 Vuelta). Personally, given that Chaves is NOT realistically going to GC contend at the Tour; I would have held Howson back to ride the Vuelta fresh but Orica Hierarchy have decided differently
Plaza DID ride particularly well in support of AY at the Giro; whilst not a "slam dunk" it is at least a strong point in his favour. Yes, riders ARE professionals and can be expected to ride with anyone .... but teams DO make calls on whom they look to team up together and this season, it has looked to be SY with Kreuziger at the one weekers apart from the abortive T-A outing with AY & Chaves also riding Dauphine. This may not have been Orica's original intention for the season but with Chaves being sidelined for 2-3 months, this is at least how the season has played out.
I would have no issue should Kreuziger be selected but they will most likely already have the likes of Howson & Haig in the line-up ... and I suspect Plaza will be there. Two of them should be "fresh" (Haig & Plaza) and I'd suspect that Howson may be not be as heavily worked at the Tour as Kreuziger. Therefore I'd see him as a "nice to have" rather than a "must have" with regards to Vuelta selection. If he's come out of the Tour in good shape/no illness then I'd be happy to "green light" his selection
What seems clear to me is that you are a Kreuziger "partisan" .... I'm not critcising you for that. What I do find irritating is that you seem to look for offence/slights against him where none was either intended or expressed ! Perhaps this may be just issues of language/translation or maybe we just view through different lenses; your's as a fan of a specific rider whereas I do not see myself as a partisan of any particular rider of any nationality or any team.
Oh completely forgot about Bewley (which complicates things). Hepburn is perfect as a third man in a leadout and is a better TTTer (in my view), yet Bewley does have the Chaves connection.
I'd take Kreuziger over Howson and Verona if he isn't too fatigued as he's more explosive than Howson and just better than Verona. However he might want to ride in Canada (of which the same goes for Gerrans). Also this doesn't mean I don't want Howson (or an improved Verona in the squad), I just feel if you had to choose from these 3 riders for the rest of the roster that's who i'd go for.
Lastly the two reasons I picked Kluge over Mezgec were: firstly he's a great flatland grunt who's intuitive and good for crosswinds (who can also share co-captaincy duties with Gerrans); and secondly that would translate well to the TTT. However as you said Mezgec is more versatile and that would help Cort on his more selective finishes + the idea that Kluge isn't happy at ORS could complicate it too.
Personally I'd have loved for Edmondson to ride this (instead of the Giro) and in an ideal world Power would be riding this too (yet he's too inexperienced for what will probably be Orica's best chance for the GC in a GT).
I'd take Kreuziger over Howson and Verona if he isn't too fatigued as he's more explosive than Howson and just better than Verona. However he might want to ride in Canada (of which the same goes for Gerrans). Also this doesn't mean I don't want Howson (or an improved Verona in the squad), I just feel if you had to choose from these 3 riders for the rest of the roster that's who i'd go for.
Lastly the two reasons I picked Kluge over Mezgec were: firstly he's a great flatland grunt who's intuitive and good for crosswinds (who can also share co-captaincy duties with Gerrans); and secondly that would translate well to the TTT. However as you said Mezgec is more versatile and that would help Cort on his more selective finishes + the idea that Kluge isn't happy at ORS could complicate it too.
Personally I'd have loved for Edmondson to ride this (instead of the Giro) and in an ideal world Power would be riding this too (yet he's too inexperienced for what will probably be Orica's best chance for the GC in a GT).
TRENDING THREADS
-
-
Paris - Roubaix 2024, one day monument, April 7- Started by Dreginald
- Replies: 2K
-
-
Tour of the Alps 2024 (April 15 - 19)- Started by Devil's Elbow
- Replies: 359
-
-
Volta Ciclista a Catalunya 2024 (March 18-24)- Started by Devil's Elbow
- Replies: 2K
-
De Ronde van Vlaanderen (270.8 km), 2024 March 31 (Sunday)- Started by Netserk
- Replies: 1K
Facebook
Twitter
Instagram