I have enjoyed Baden Cooke's Vuelta commentary with Matt Keenan on SBS. He's a bit different to some of the other commentators.
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Re: Re:
You would think so. The results have dried up and he's 37. One day riders can go for longer but not all of them. He's probably in more of a mentor role now anyway which is still good for the team but with only teams of 8 next season you have to wonder what his role would be.
dirkprovin said:
You would think so. The results have dried up and he's 37. One day riders can go for longer but not all of them. He's probably in more of a mentor role now anyway which is still good for the team but with only teams of 8 next season you have to wonder what his role would be.
Team for TOB
Ewan
Mezgec
Docker
Power
Durbridge
Kluge
Ewan for the flat sprints or otherwise Mezgec and Power for GC. Durbridge is in training mode. Means that Kreuziger, Howson, Gerrans, Haymaa, Hepburn, Albasini, Edmondson; Keukeliere and Hayman will be considered for the Canadian races.
Ewan
Mezgec
Docker
Power
Durbridge
Kluge
Ewan for the flat sprints or otherwise Mezgec and Power for GC. Durbridge is in training mode. Means that Kreuziger, Howson, Gerrans, Haymaa, Hepburn, Albasini, Edmondson; Keukeliere and Hayman will be considered for the Canadian races.
Haig has re-signed. Not sure of the duration.
http://www.greenedgecycling.com/news/haig-at-home-with-orica-scott
http://www.greenedgecycling.com/news/haig-at-home-with-orica-scott
Re:
Would appear to be 2 years.
"Sport director Matt White has been impressed with the young Australian’s performances under the guidance of the team and is looking forward to helping Haig progress further over the next two seasons."
Certainly a vital re-signing given the quality he has shown this year but especially the past few weeks as he would most likely have been registering on a number of team's radar screens. If his 2018 continues on its 2017 trajectory, it would not surprise to see Orica seek to extend the deal as they did with Chaves last season.
claude cat said:
Would appear to be 2 years.
"Sport director Matt White has been impressed with the young Australian’s performances under the guidance of the team and is looking forward to helping Haig progress further over the next two seasons."
Certainly a vital re-signing given the quality he has shown this year but especially the past few weeks as he would most likely have been registering on a number of team's radar screens. If his 2018 continues on its 2017 trajectory, it would not surprise to see Orica seek to extend the deal as they did with Chaves last season.
Will end up a better GC rider than the Yates brothers, and some chance to get to the level of Chaves - Expect to ride a shadow GC in 2018 which will be his third year.
Re: Re:
My view fits somewhere in between. He is about to turn 24 and therefore has a greater physical maturity than most 1st/2nd year pros who make the switch at earlier ages. Whilst I do largely agree with Yaco re his potential (seems to climb as well as either Yates, stronger TTer); there should be no hurry to pile expectation and hype upon him.
Let him get some GC experience at WT one weekers next season and, if his form merits, possibly give him a slot as a GC "B option" at one of next years GTs. In the meantime, let the talking heads continue to pump up Richie's tyres and talk up Dennis whilst he sneaks under the radar.
42x16ss said:
My view fits somewhere in between. He is about to turn 24 and therefore has a greater physical maturity than most 1st/2nd year pros who make the switch at earlier ages. Whilst I do largely agree with Yaco re his potential (seems to climb as well as either Yates, stronger TTer); there should be no hurry to pile expectation and hype upon him.
Let him get some GC experience at WT one weekers next season and, if his form merits, possibly give him a slot as a GC "B option" at one of next years GTs. In the meantime, let the talking heads continue to pump up Richie's tyres and talk up Dennis whilst he sneaks under the radar.
Re: Re:
I am comfortable with my call - I am not expecting any GT GC results from Haig until year 4 and I am referring to years down the track.
42x16ss said:
I am comfortable with my call - I am not expecting any GT GC results from Haig until year 4 and I am referring to years down the track.
Re: Re:
For me, the truly scary talent is Power, IF he gets his health and form right.
Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't be surprised in the least if it happens, but I don't see it as a certainty that Haig will be better than both Yates. I do expect him to genuinely challenge GT results in the future though.dirkprovin said:
For me, the truly scary talent is Power, IF he gets his health and form right.
Re: Re:
I think we've seen sufficient of both Yates' to have a fairly good read on their capacities and limitations.
- Neither are more steady climbers without the real capacity to "break open" a race
- Barring rare "death or glories" like AY on stg15, both do seem to know their limitations and whilst this might see them drop off the v sharp end; they will most often minimise their time losses.
- Neither will ever be better than OK TTers; not disastrous but nor is it a strength where they can gain/regain time
- AY's positional sense/tendency to ride too far back still a concern
Whilst I can see them remaining top 10 contenders with maybe top 5 possible; it would need either a very weak field or a large swathe of contenders be taken out via crash/other factors for them to be on a GT podium.
Fully agree that we still need to see more from Haig, and another season or at least part season "flying under the radar" would not hurt. What he has shown so far is that he looks capable of riding with the real "business end" of the race if not too the finish then close to on a day to day basis. In his one-weekers so far this year, his TTs have been very solid.
Power ? Having essentially lost the entire 2016 season, its been hard to get much of a real read from what we've seen. His best showings have been in one day races. His TT would appear to need major attention. Fairly certain that he will get another 2 years and we should have a better read even in 12 months time. Whilst Orica will be patient, neither can they "gift" him starts at major WT one weekers let alone GT starts so he may need to make the most of whatever starts he gets.
42x16ss said:
I think we've seen sufficient of both Yates' to have a fairly good read on their capacities and limitations.
- Neither are more steady climbers without the real capacity to "break open" a race
- Barring rare "death or glories" like AY on stg15, both do seem to know their limitations and whilst this might see them drop off the v sharp end; they will most often minimise their time losses.
- Neither will ever be better than OK TTers; not disastrous but nor is it a strength where they can gain/regain time
- AY's positional sense/tendency to ride too far back still a concern
Whilst I can see them remaining top 10 contenders with maybe top 5 possible; it would need either a very weak field or a large swathe of contenders be taken out via crash/other factors for them to be on a GT podium.
Fully agree that we still need to see more from Haig, and another season or at least part season "flying under the radar" would not hurt. What he has shown so far is that he looks capable of riding with the real "business end" of the race if not too the finish then close to on a day to day basis. In his one-weekers so far this year, his TTs have been very solid.
Power ? Having essentially lost the entire 2016 season, its been hard to get much of a real read from what we've seen. His best showings have been in one day races. His TT would appear to need major attention. Fairly certain that he will get another 2 years and we should have a better read even in 12 months time. Whilst Orica will be patient, neither can they "gift" him starts at major WT one weekers let alone GT starts so he may need to make the most of whatever starts he gets.
gerrans is disappered , what good times seeing him demolish froome on san luca at giro 2009 very good memories
Must be very disappointed with this Vuelta ....considering that at the onset they were listed as the team to take on SKY
Re:
Anyone who was making such predictions must only have been looking at the names and not the actual condition of the riders themselves. It was a head-scratcher when it was first touted that they would send all 3 GC men to the Vuelta and absolutely mind-boggling that they actually followed through and did so. It's left them top-heavy/"too many chiefs, not enough Indians" with one of the GC men not even capable of even being a meaningful domestique.
SY was visibly "running on fumes" by the end of the Tour and this was borne out by him missing the split at San Sebastian. Has had a busy season so little wonder he has been little more than a passenger before the first week was over. Chaves was always going to be a question mark given his interrupted season. AY .... raising some question marks re his capacity to do more than 1 GT per year.
Orica have made some major balls-up this season; firstly by sending Chaves to race in AUS rather than sticking to what worked for him in 2016 and then with this 3 GC men to same GT. Arguably sending a labour intensive sprinter to the Giro was another mis-step although not on the scale of these others.
All teams, and all team hierarchies, will inevitably make their share of stuff-ups. What is important is that the messages from these mistakes fully strike home ..... and that they never repeat them !!
HelloDolly said:
Anyone who was making such predictions must only have been looking at the names and not the actual condition of the riders themselves. It was a head-scratcher when it was first touted that they would send all 3 GC men to the Vuelta and absolutely mind-boggling that they actually followed through and did so. It's left them top-heavy/"too many chiefs, not enough Indians" with one of the GC men not even capable of even being a meaningful domestique.
SY was visibly "running on fumes" by the end of the Tour and this was borne out by him missing the split at San Sebastian. Has had a busy season so little wonder he has been little more than a passenger before the first week was over. Chaves was always going to be a question mark given his interrupted season. AY .... raising some question marks re his capacity to do more than 1 GT per year.
Orica have made some major balls-up this season; firstly by sending Chaves to race in AUS rather than sticking to what worked for him in 2016 and then with this 3 GC men to same GT. Arguably sending a labour intensive sprinter to the Giro was another mis-step although not on the scale of these others.
All teams, and all team hierarchies, will inevitably make their share of stuff-ups. What is important is that the messages from these mistakes fully strike home ..... and that they never repeat them !!
Re:
It's been a shocking Vuelta - As DP wrote sending 3 GC riders to a GT is a recipe for disaster - I suppose it's seems a good idea if you are into fantasy cycling - Actually so far the whole GT season has been extremely disappointing - Nowhere near a podium and one stage across the three GT's makes for poor reading.
HelloDolly said:
It's been a shocking Vuelta - As DP wrote sending 3 GC riders to a GT is a recipe for disaster - I suppose it's seems a good idea if you are into fantasy cycling - Actually so far the whole GT season has been extremely disappointing - Nowhere near a podium and one stage across the three GT's makes for poor reading.
Re: Re:
Whilst I largely agree that this Vuelta has been distinctly sub-standard and the GTs, in general, disappointing; the reality was that it was going to be difficult to match last seasons results let alone improve upon them.
Certainly, cirumstances such as Chaves' early season injury have caused disruption to some plans; I cannot help but think that they have multiplied the problems by overcomplicating things. A simple re-jig of AY to Giro, SY to Tour, Chaves to Vuelta would not only have been easier but allowed far more balanced line-ups at Tour but especially at Vuelta where there would be better support but probably also better stage winning opportunities.
Whilst their form for this year has indicated none of the GC men have been in podium shape; their team hierarchy have also done them a significant disservice and they have the right to make it clear "this must not happen again !"
yaco said:
Whilst I largely agree that this Vuelta has been distinctly sub-standard and the GTs, in general, disappointing; the reality was that it was going to be difficult to match last seasons results let alone improve upon them.
Certainly, cirumstances such as Chaves' early season injury have caused disruption to some plans; I cannot help but think that they have multiplied the problems by overcomplicating things. A simple re-jig of AY to Giro, SY to Tour, Chaves to Vuelta would not only have been easier but allowed far more balanced line-ups at Tour but especially at Vuelta where there would be better support but probably also better stage winning opportunities.
Whilst their form for this year has indicated none of the GC men have been in podium shape; their team hierarchy have also done them a significant disservice and they have the right to make it clear "this must not happen again !"
As the entire GC team tanked in Spain, Ewan is doing his best to accumulate wins in Britland.
Re:
Wins are always nice. However, the overall significance of racking up wins in a 2nd tier non WT race = maybe 3 parts of diddly squat. 2017 with 2 GT podiums, 2 more GT top 10s and 2 monuments was always going to be exceedingly difficult to match let alone exceed.
Orica shot themselves in the foot with their selections for this GT ..... and when you send unbalanced teams to any GT where you have any legitimate ambitions; you pay for it. It is what it is .... what is imperative is that the strategic mis-steps made prior to and during this season are not only acknowledged but never repeated.
Dazed and Confused said:
Wins are always nice. However, the overall significance of racking up wins in a 2nd tier non WT race = maybe 3 parts of diddly squat. 2017 with 2 GT podiums, 2 more GT top 10s and 2 monuments was always going to be exceedingly difficult to match let alone exceed.
Orica shot themselves in the foot with their selections for this GT ..... and when you send unbalanced teams to any GT where you have any legitimate ambitions; you pay for it. It is what it is .... what is imperative is that the strategic mis-steps made prior to and during this season are not only acknowledged but never repeated.
Is Cort still in the race? Tomorrow is the last opportunity to save this Vuelta.
No top-10 in GC is a bit of a bummer with this startlist.
No top-10 in GC is a bit of a bummer with this startlist.
Re:
He certainly is. Made the time cuts very easily. Would not surprise if there is a real effort to get him up for at least a prominent showing in the sprint given his efforts for others on various stages.
Orica went in with an unbalanced line-up and it backfired. SY was already spent after the Tour (and a busy season prior to that) so he was never going to be a factor. Chaves' season never recovered from spending 3 months out of racing and AY was frankly a major disappointment. Their biggest plus out of this race has been Haig who will gain a great deal from racing as much as he did at the "business end" of the race and 21st on GC isn't bad for one's 2nd GT.
Alexandre B. said:
He certainly is. Made the time cuts very easily. Would not surprise if there is a real effort to get him up for at least a prominent showing in the sprint given his efforts for others on various stages.
Orica went in with an unbalanced line-up and it backfired. SY was already spent after the Tour (and a busy season prior to that) so he was never going to be a factor. Chaves' season never recovered from spending 3 months out of racing and AY was frankly a major disappointment. Their biggest plus out of this race has been Haig who will gain a great deal from racing as much as he did at the "business end" of the race and 21st on GC isn't bad for one's 2nd GT.
Re:
It's hardly been a terrible season - Disappointing from a GC perspective no doubt, solid in the classics, very solid in the sprints with Ewan and some young riders are developing well - Overall it's been a solid season but more was expected.
portugal11 said:
It's hardly been a terrible season - Disappointing from a GC perspective no doubt, solid in the classics, very solid in the sprints with Ewan and some young riders are developing well - Overall it's been a solid season but more was expected.
Re: Re:
Especially when the guy who was - perhaps - your best shot for the overall loses a large part of the season due to injury, and has to deal with personal issues on top.
Though, judging by the BSP it hasn't been getting the riders up the climbs that has been the biggest issue.
dirkprovin said:
Especially when the guy who was - perhaps - your best shot for the overall loses a large part of the season due to injury, and has to deal with personal issues on top.
Though, judging by the BSP it hasn't been getting the riders up the climbs that has been the biggest issue.
Re: Re:
A more reasonable summation. Realistically, it was a massive ask to live up to the level of 2016 with 2 GT podiums + 2 other GT top10s plus 2 monuments.
Fair to say that GTs have been disappointments; partly due to outside factors impacting riders schedules but also due to some missteps on the part of team management. One dayers and one weekers = not the wins of last season but a fairly solid record of high finishes and a few podiums.
Certainly no reason to be reaching for the revolver or razor blades but certainly some grounds for very candid debriefs/assessments.
yaco said:
A more reasonable summation. Realistically, it was a massive ask to live up to the level of 2016 with 2 GT podiums + 2 other GT top10s plus 2 monuments.
Fair to say that GTs have been disappointments; partly due to outside factors impacting riders schedules but also due to some missteps on the part of team management. One dayers and one weekers = not the wins of last season but a fairly solid record of high finishes and a few podiums.
Certainly no reason to be reaching for the revolver or razor blades but certainly some grounds for very candid debriefs/assessments.
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