[Green Edge] Shayne Bannan, Gerry Ryan and an Aussie Pro Team for 2012?

[yaco]

Re: Re:

Hmmm I disagree to the extent that he wasn't always racing under an Australian licence, so don't think that statement is true. Also for all bar the years of 2012 (when Gerrans had won MSR that year) I don't think he deserved leadership status other riders such as Gerrans, Goss or Matthews.

Haussler has rarely prepared himself like a true pro should in his career, and he should have done much better - My post is referring to life as a pro for a trade team - Note that Haussler was born in Australia and lived there until he was 14 - He moved to Germany to develop his cycling and had dual citizenship of both Australia and Germany - He raced under German nationality in the junior and under 23's but then chose to ride as an Australian national as a senior which meant he renounced his German citizenship. To classify him as a non-Australian is wrong

I know he's an Aussie, but just don't think labelling him as the biggest wasted talent in Australia is correct when for a few worlds he didn't ride for Australia (not going into the notion of wasted talent because I don't know enough). Surely there's others who can be labelled as wasted talents too in Australia who more readily spring to mind.

It's an interesting discussion but I can't think of other names - Can someone help us.

 

[janraaskalt]

Re: Re:

It's an interesting discussion but I can't think of other names - Can someone help us.

Matthew Goss, for example? There were also talented young riders stopping just like that, like Dale Parker.

 

[The Hegelian]

Re: Re:

May I say: There's a good chance Haas would have been there in the finale. It was a rugged sprint, but he would have been better placed to lead Matthews out than Haussler who finished 5.49 down. With a lead out, who knows? Definitely gets closer to the Kristoff and Sagan doesn't he?

I really like Haussler, but that was a really stupid selection.

\

Maybe, maybe not. Firstly none of the other sprinters had lead-out men present ... and the pedigree of their support in some cases is several classes above that of N.Haas so lets not be so assured that he would actually have been present. You state it as a good chance; but whilst I fully agree that he would've been more likely than Haussler I see that scenario as being more of a "maybe".

Second, I'm struggling to find any real history of N.Haas as a lead-out man; rather his history is far more that of an opportunist who looks out for himself. Has he ever rode alongside Matthews in the same team let alone know "how he operates" ? Had there been a plan of having a B option then most certainly the case for selecting him raises immensely but I remain somewhat ambivalent as to his utility under the stated race strategy.

I grant you that there was a lot of quality a couple of minutes behind, as is always the case in WCRR's. Haas may well have been dropped from the front group. But he and Durbridge are the only other two Australians this year to have shown the quality to be there in the finale of hard raced classics. And Durbridge is of course coming back from injury. Which leaves Haas, who - apparently - was in top form.

Surely, you select to have some 'maybe' support in the finale ahead 'no chance whatsever'. I mean Haussler has barely raced at all. What shape that 'maybe' support takes is unpredictable - maybe he gives one good chase 3k's to go. Maybe it's a lead out. Maybe it's marking someone. Surely it's better to have a teammate than not....

Umm, Jay McCarthy? I know he had a poor race by his standards, but I suspect that both him and Haas would be redundant as either would have a claim to "plan b" if they were on.

McCarthy is really developing into a classy rider - but in the finale of hard WT classics in 2017 he has not shown the quality of either Durbridge or Haas. That's just a fact of the matter. Durbridge was there in Strade + some of the cobbled classics and even went into the Rhonde as an outside favourite. Haas was in a very select winning move at the end of a hard raced Amstel. Both of those are statements of being elite in hard one day races. McCarthy has not shown this yet. The point is simply: who has proven in 2017 they can be there in the finale of an elite monument/classic/WC?

 

[dirkprovin]

Would Haas have rode for Matthews ..... or for himself ?? THAT in itself, along with previous issues of "discord" re B options riding for themselves; may well explain his non-selection. I would most certainly wish to be proven wrong and I may be doing him a significant injustice but that has been his racing MO rather than being a major team player.

Had it been the previous strategy of having "option B" then I certainly agree that Haas would probably top the list of likely candidates but for better or worse, the fore-ordained strategy was "all in" for Matthews and Haas may well have been seen as a potential rogue agent.

 

[The Hegelian]

Yeah, I think you're right dirkprovin. Many a quality WC team has suffered from the strange problem of too much talent rather than too little. Spain in recent years comes to mind. Maybe Belgium this year. And one thinks of numerous classics where QS has somehow managed to lose despite having 3 or even 4 winning options in the finale.

But also: it's pretty daft not to select your best cards on the fear that they may not work well together strategically. Surely they can discuss these matters during selection. Why presuppose Haas won't work? Just because Gerrans didn't in 2015? Hanging a man for something Gerrrans did seems pretty idiotic.

 

[dirkprovin]

Re:

Yeah, I think you're right dirkprovin. Many a quality WC team has suffered from the strange problem of too much talent rather than too little. Spain in recent years comes to mind. Maybe Belgium this year. And one thinks of numerous classics where QS has somehow managed to lose despite having 3 or even 4 winning options in the finale.

But also: it's pretty daft not to select your best cards on the fear that they may not work well together strategically. Surely they can discuss these matters during selection. Why presuppose Haas won't work? Just because Gerrans didn't in 2015? Hanging a man for something Gerrrans did seems pretty idiotic.

Frankly with Gerrans at 2015 Worlds, its debatable that he would've made any difference to Matthews' outcome. Lets face it, everyone was still probably in recovery mode from that final hill and even if he did launch a lead-out, it was also inviting others to take advantage and finish over the top of Matthews. If anything it was actually one Amstel where I do think that Gerrans "stiffed" Matthews but even then Matthews missed the jump. Gerrans actually COULD be a good team man, the one qualifier being not always in races where he thinks he can win.

As for Haas, maybe the selectors know a little more about the guy than we do/have feedback from a cross-section of Aussie riders that may've lead them to suspect that he may not be a "team player". I may be wrong, indeed I hope that I am way off beam but these kind of riders certainly do exist. There's times where they're probably the go-to man; others not.

 

[swuzzlebubble]

With Haas it seems that coming via the non-traditional pathway has him as somewhat of an outsider compared to the ex-u23 guys.

 

[yaco]

Re:

With Haas it seems that coming via the non-traditional pathway has him as somewhat of an outsider compared to the ex-u23 guys.

Spot on with your post - This has been glaringly obvious for a number of years - Will add that Matthews had a big say in selection and he hand-picked Haussler as his lieutenant - Anyway Haas needs to work on his race craft because he can do better in the final of key races.

 

[The Hegelian]

Sounds like it's a bit of an old boys club. There's definitely something NQR about it - reminds me a bit of '09 when the whole team except for Clarke (who abstained) voted for Gerrans as leader instead of Evans (another outsider). Not suggesting the situations are analogous, but rather that sentimental attachments are overriding clear thinking.

 

[dirkprovin]

Re:

Sounds like it's a bit of an old boys club. There's definitely something NQR about it - reminds me a bit of '09 when the whole team except for Clarke (who abstained) voted for Gerrans as leader instead of Evans (another outsider). Not suggesting the situations are analogous, but rather that sentimental attachments are overriding clear thinking.

TBH, I can't help thinking some are trying to portray Haas as somewhat of a "magic bullet" that would've made the difference ....... I just feel that's debatable at best. There was certainly a case to be made for his selection but most probably some legitimate reasons behind his non-selection.

An inside club .... an allegation that sometimes raises its head but just how valid ? Not sure you could say its an Orica "closed shop" as riders who have never ridden for the team are selected as well as riders who've left. DO personalities play a part ?? Most likely yes but is there some validity behind this ? You raise 2009 Worlds and Evans ....... at that time, his "rap" as a team mate was NOT particularly high having fallen out with the bulk of his Lotto team-mates (2009 TDF being poisonous). Perhaps a little context behind that decision ? Did this play a part with Haas .... we may never know for certain. It certainly should not preclude someone from selection where the race strategy has them down as the main man or key component; but in the strategy set out he was essentially a bit player/interchangeable part.

 

[yaco]

Re: Re:

Sounds like it's a bit of an old boys club. There's definitely something NQR about it - reminds me a bit of '09 when the whole team except for Clarke (who abstained) voted for Gerrans as leader instead of Evans (another outsider). Not suggesting the situations are analogous, but rather that sentimental attachments are overriding clear thinking.

TBH, I can't help thinking some are trying to portray Haas as somewhat of a "magic bullet" that would've made the difference ....... I just feel that's debatable at best. There was certainly a case to be made for his selection but most probably some legitimate reasons behind his non-selection.

An inside club .... an allegation that sometimes raises its head but just how valid ? Not sure you could say its an Orica "closed shop" as riders who have never ridden for the team are selected as well as riders who've left. DO personalities play a part ?? Most likely yes but is there some validity behind this ? You raise 2009 Worlds and Evans ....... at that time, his "rap" as a team mate was NOT particularly high having fallen out with the bulk of his Lotto team-mates (2009 TDF being poisonous). Perhaps a little context behind that decision ? Did this play a part with Haas .... we may never know for certain. It certainly should not preclude someone from selection where the race strategy has them down as the main man or key component; but in the strategy set out he was essentially a bit player/interchangeable part.

Selection for the 2018 World's will be fraught with difficulty and it's imperative selectors have a good handle on the percours - a 7 km climb at 6% x 7 and a 3 km climb at 11% is too much for Matthews and Haas - Porte has never performed in one day races, while Haig is still too green - And the women will probably one have four riders who are anyway suitable.

 

[42x16ss]

Re: Re:

Sounds like it's a bit of an old boys club. There's definitely something NQR about it - reminds me a bit of '09 when the whole team except for Clarke (who abstained) voted for Gerrans as leader instead of Evans (another outsider). Not suggesting the situations are analogous, but rather that sentimental attachments are overriding clear thinking.

TBH, I can't help thinking some are trying to portray Haas as somewhat of a "magic bullet" that would've made the difference ....... I just feel that's debatable at best. There was certainly a case to be made for his selection but most probably some legitimate reasons behind his non-selection.

An inside club .... an allegation that sometimes raises its head but just how valid ? Not sure you could say its an Orica "closed shop" as riders who have never ridden for the team are selected as well as riders who've left. DO personalities play a part ?? Most likely yes but is there some validity behind this ? You raise 2009 Worlds and Evans ....... at that time, his "rap" as a team mate was NOT particularly high having fallen out with the bulk of his Lotto team-mates (2009 TDF being poisonous). Perhaps a little context behind that decision ? Did this play a part with Haas .... we may never know for certain. It certainly should not preclude someone from selection where the race strategy has them down as the main man or key component; but in the strategy set out he was essentially a bit player/interchangeable part.

Selection for the 2018 World's will be fraught with difficulty and it's imperative selectors have a good handle on the percours - a 7 km climb at 6% x 7 and a 3 km climb at 11% is too much for Matthews and Haas - Porte has never performed in one day races, while Haig is still too green - And the women will probably one have four riders who are anyway suitable.

2018 selection will be interesting. Haig is an obvious choice, along with Howson. Simon Clarke and Porte will get a ride if they want it, after that it's down to riders like Morton, Canty, Meyer, Power and the neo pros...

 

[swuzzlebubble]

Sutherland, C Hamilton, Ben O'connor

 

[claude cat]

I'd put Canty in there.

 

[yaco]

Who will be the team leader ?

 

[greenedge]

Re: Re:

It's an interesting discussion but I can't think of other names - Can someone help us.

Matthew Goss, for example? There were also talented young riders stopping just like that, like Dale Parker.

Also Campbell Flakemore. Tim Roe?
Two riders who are very solid currently as well/ still have the opportunity to keep on progressing, but in my view have not met the lofty (maybe too overhyped) expectations set for them are Hepburn and Durbridge too- I can understand Hepburn focused on the track for a long time, but his two L'Avenir wins suggested so much and Durbridge seems to have lost his ITT prowess (which I thought could enable him to challenge Tony Martin).

 

[pastronef]

Re: Re:

It's an interesting discussion but I can't think of other names - Can someone help us.

Matthew Goss, for example? There were also talented young riders stopping just like that, like Dale Parker.

Also Campbell Flakemore. Tim Roe?
Two riders who are very solid currently as well/ still have the opportunity to keep on progressing, but in my view have not met the lofty (maybe too overhyped) expectations set for them are Hepburn and Durbridge too- I can understand Hepburn focused on the track for a long time, but his two L'Avenir wins suggested so much and Durbridge seems to have lost his ITT prowess (which I thought could enable him to challenge Tony Martin).

Flakemore has quit cycling 2 years ago, and Roe rides for Isowhey team (the former Genesys-Avanti team)

 

[yaco]

Re: Re:

It's an interesting discussion but I can't think of other names - Can someone help us.

Matthew Goss, for example? There were also talented young riders stopping just like that, like Dale Parker.

Also Campbell Flakemore. Tim Roe?
Two riders who are very solid currently as well/ still have the opportunity to keep on progressing, but in my view have not met the lofty (maybe too overhyped) expectations set for them are Hepburn and Durbridge too- I can understand Hepburn focused on the track for a long time, but his two L'Avenir wins suggested so much and Durbridge seems to have lost his ITT prowess (which I thought could enable him to challenge Tony Martin).

Durbridge has improved year on year - It's possible he can win one of the cobbled classics.

 

[dirkprovin]

Re: Re:

It's an interesting discussion but I can't think of other names - Can someone help us.

Matthew Goss, for example? There were also talented young riders stopping just like that, like Dale Parker.

Also Campbell Flakemore. Tim Roe?
Two riders who are very solid currently as well/ still have the opportunity to keep on progressing, but in my view have not met the lofty (maybe too overhyped) expectations set for them are Hepburn and Durbridge too- I can understand Hepburn focused on the track for a long time, but his two L'Avenir wins suggested so much and Durbridge seems to have lost his ITT prowess (which I thought could enable him to challenge Tony Martin).

Durbridge has improved year on year - It's possible he can win one of the cobbled classics.

Fair point that Durbridge's TT has perhaps "gone off" somewhat after being dominant in that discipline at U23 level. 2017 certainly did see him mature into a top class cobbles contender; as to whether he has what it takes to win one of the major cobbled classics is perhaps open to speculation. He DOES possess a massive engine but lacks a sprint finish thus requiring him to be able to get a gap and then hold on. He has to rely on his big diesel to get him up the bergs rather than any explosiveness that will break open a gap. Perhaps this indicates that PR would be his optimal race albeit being the most punishing.

 

[yaco]

Beghelli tomorrow and if Cort rides with common-sense he is a big chance of winning.

 

[42x16ss]

Re:

Who will be the team leader ?

At the moment, probably Haig. Although if the likes of Canty, Morton and O'Connor show signs in hilly races they could have a free role. McCarthy, Haas and Matthews wouldn't feature.

 

[The Hegelian]

Porte is the only one with the engine to win on those parcours, but as someone else pointed out, he's never shown anything in a one day race + lacks racing nous.

Then again, on hard WC climbing parcours, you can get pure GC riders winning - Abraham Olano in Colombia comes to mind. Leblanc in '94. Actually, could even think of Evans - it was only after his WC win that he became a more confident and attacking one day rider.

 

[greenedge]

I agree with Durbridge winning the cobbled classics, I think he has it in him to, but there are a lot of variables to it, as opposed to the clear path that there could have been for him to be a great ITT rider.
With regards to Flakemore and Roe, I was saying they're two talents who haven't fulfilled their potential.

 

[dirkprovin]

Re:

I agree with Durbridge winning the cobbled classics, I think he has it in him to, but there are a lot of variables to it, as opposed to the clear path that there could have been for him to be a great ITT rider.
With regards to Flakemore and Roe, I was saying they're two talents who haven't fulfilled their potential.

Durbridge was probably able to dominate ITT at junior levels due to his big track engine however translating to being at the very top of this discipline at senior level also brings into play what other aspects/talents the rider may possess. Some have some climbing ability which serves to their advantage on many courses; this is not a strength of Durbridge's and one area which he has had to work on .... arguably to the deficit of his ITT. Quite simply, a rider at WT level cannot survive on purely being a TT specialist.

Know far less of Roe's story but Flakemore was very much the TT specialist with very little else to his CV/skill-set. Was surprised at the time that BMC hadn't done more "due diligence".

 

[42x16ss]

Re: Re:

I agree with Durbridge winning the cobbled classics, I think he has it in him to, but there are a lot of variables to it, as opposed to the clear path that there could have been for him to be a great ITT rider.
With regards to Flakemore and Roe, I was saying they're two talents who haven't fulfilled their potential.

Durbridge was probably able to dominate ITT at junior levels due to his big track engine however translating to being at the very top of this discipline at senior level also brings into play what other aspects/talents the rider may possess. Some have some climbing ability which serves to their advantage on many courses; this is not a strength of Durbridge's and one area which he has had to work on .... arguably to the deficit of his ITT. Quite simply, a rider at WT level cannot survive on purely being a TT specialist.

Know far less of Roe's story but Flakemore was very much the TT specialist with very little else to his CV/skill-set. Was surprised at the time that BMC hadn't done more "due diligence".

Flakemore had the ability to be a decent WT rider, but took other opportunities in life. Roe is now riding at about the right level for his ability, although he could go to a Pro Continental team if he wanted.

As for due diligence, this was when the WT were signing Australian domestic riders in relative droves in the hope of uncovering another Porte.