Question GT Return Policy

[IndianCyclist]

You are winning a GT. Unfortunately it is Sepp Kuss Style. You are a helper, You are in lead. What should happen???

 

[Nick2413]

The strongest man wins, especially the bigger the race. Gifts are more morally wrong than a proper race, and will always leave a bitter taste in the mouth of the person receiving the gift when they look back down the road.

 

[Izzyeviel]

He hasn't won it yet. Go outside, turn around ten times & spit!

 

[SafeBet]

The strongest man wins, especially the bigger the race. Gifts are more morally wrong than a proper race, and will always leave a bitter taste in the mouth of the person receiving the gift when they look back down the road.

But much sweeter than never winning a GT, which was a very likely scenario for Kuss until 3 weeks ago.


As for the poll, I like the Whatevs option. It's not an issue I particularly care about, as most of the moral / ethical issues involved in sports.

 

[proffate]

The strongest man wins, especially the bigger the race. Gifts are more morally wrong than a proper race, and will always leave a bitter taste in the mouth of the person receiving the gift when they look back down the road.

When Sepp is 60 and kicking it on his porch I don't think he's looking back on this experience with regret.

Horner won his Vuelta on the road, but his competition was simply not at the level of Rog and Ving. Kuss is probably stronger than Horner was. (What were their Angliru times?) Whether the added element of luck came due to the level of competition who showed up, a mechanical by your main opponent, or team tactics gone awry, it's all about being in the right place at the right time. And news flash to anyone who was born yesterday: being relentlessly cheerful and well-liked in life just tends to attract opportunities (to which winners then apply hard work and talent). Just look at Arnold Schwarzenegger, Nims Purja, Hulk Hogan, to name a few.

 

[Nick2413]

When Sepp is 60 and kicking it on his porch I don't think he's looking back on this experience with regret.

Horner won his Vuelta on the road, but his competition was simply not at the level of Rog and Ving. Kuss is probably stronger than Horner was. (What were their Angliru times?) Whether the added element of luck came due to the level of competition who showed up, a mechanical by your main opponent, or team tactics gone awry, it's all about being in the right place at the right time. And news flash to anyone who was born yesterday: being relentlessly cheerful and well-liked in life just tends to attract opportunities (to which winners then apply hard work and talent). Just look at Arnold Schwarzenegger, Nims Purja, Hulk Hogan, to name a few.

I’d prefer to win due to being the strongest rather than the most popular on Twitter, but to each their own. I’m happy for Kuss and don’t blame him for this, but it was a gift and I don’t even like being gifted board game wins much less something far bigger.

 

[proffate]

I’d prefer to win due to being the strongest rather than the most popular on Twitter, but to each their own. I’m happy for Kuss and don’t blame him for this, but it was a gift and I don’t even like being gifted board game wins much less something far bigger.

Maybe you should stick to watching Ironman and zwift racing then?

 

[Red Lobster]

I’m happy for Kuss and don’t blame him for this, but it was a gift and I don’t even like being gifted board game wins much less something far bigger.

Seems lazily simplistic to just call it a "gift". As others have pointed out, a lot of elements went into where we are now, and you can't unscramble the eggs or just point to one element and conclude "gift". It appears that Vingegaard and Roglic are stronger (although only slightly); that does not make the win a "gift".

 

[Nick2413]

Maybe you should stick to watching Ironman and zwift racing then?

I don’t watch Zwift and I don’t see what Ironman has to do with anything, it occasionally produces decent racing though. Bizarre comment

 

[Escarabajo]

Cry me a river!

 

[Samu Cuenca]

It should be decided in a cage fight between them and their biggest fans. You'd have Kuss, Engels, LS, Roglič, Vingegaard and Tom Danielson vs Roglič, Rackham, CyclistAbi, Gargamel and Elos Anjos vs Vingegaard, Trine, Frida, GroupDK and Niermann.

I'd bring the snakes and the snacks.

 

[ice&fire]

Looking at the thread title I thought the OP didn't like the race and wanted his/her time back.

 

[BigCoward]

He's lucky both JV and Rog are here. Because letting him win if only one of them was here would never have happened. It placated them both.

 

[zlev11]

i would want to race it out. seems more fun that way and then nobody could claim it was gifted.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

I would prefer to win on merit, but I'd take the slightly tarnished win if it was offered to me, you know?

It's like, the whole shared gold medal thing instead of a jump-off in the high jump in the Olympics. Everybody was talking about what a beautiful moment of sportsmanship it was, until Michael Johnson pointed out that it's an absolute no-brainer, which athlete is going to turn down a guaranteed gold for a risk of downgrading to silver? At the same time, though, Michael Schumacher's win at the 2002 Austrian GP is worth the same number of points as any other victory, but it isn't viewed as being a worthy victory because of the circumstances around it and the blatantly gifted nature of it.

I feel as a spectator I am well within my rights to say that, even taking personal feelings about the individuals involved out of the equation, I don't view this Vuelta win as being worthy of being held in the same esteem as a race which was won in a more competitive manner, and that I feel that this decision and the way that this has played out diminishes the value of the race, and I don't have the same respect for Sepp Kuss as a Grand Tour champion as many, maybe most, others, because of the circumstances in which the race was won.

But I also feel that should people say that to his face, Kuss himself is well within his rights to say, exactly like Óscar Pereiro did (and possibly still does to this day) when people scoff at the value of his Tour win because of the circumstances in which he acquired it, "I've got a yellow/red jersey at home, and I don't care what you think". And he'll be totally right.

 

[Valv.Piti]

Pereiro's win was much more absurd though in the sense that he was hopelessly behind and that he actually still lost to Landis which later got DQ. Sepp got +3 minutes on an early mountain stage and defended himself better than anyone could have expected, even though Jonas most likely could have taken the jersey if he wanted in a fair battle (even though Jonas basically got gifted 1 minute as well).

So in short I think there's more merit to Kuss' victory, I think he was stronger overall relative to the competition compared to Óscar, but then again, his two biggest competitors are actually NOT racing to win. So its somewhat similar, but still wildly different, but I'd take Kuss over Pereiro.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Pereiro's win was much more absurd though in the sense that he was hopelessly behind and that he actually still lost to Landis which later got DQ. Sepp got +3 minutes on an early mountain stage and defended himself better than anyone could have expected, even though Jonas most likely could have taken the jersey if he wanted in a fair battle (even though Jonas basically got gifted 1 minute as well).

So in short I think there's more merit to Kuss' victory, I think he was stronger overall relative to the competition compared to Óscar, but then again, his two biggest competitors are actually NOT racing to win. So its somewhat similar, but still wildly different, but I'd take Kuss over Pereiro.

I did say "many, maybe most" others, not all others. I'm using the example of Pereiro there because people did come at him saying he wasn't a real Tour winner because of the way he won it, and he responded the way Sepp should if people do that to him. It wasn't intended as a comparison of the two GTs (notwithstanding that given Pereiro had been 10th in the previous year's race, it's quite likely a lot of that time loss had been intentional when realising he was on a bad day with the intention of stagehunting later, only to be handed a huge slice of luck because Phonak didn't want to try to hold the jersey all the way with their Puerto-depleted resources).

 

[Valv.Piti]

I did say "many, maybe most" others, not all others. I'm using the example of Pereiro there because people did come at him saying he wasn't a real Tour winner because of the way he won it, and he responded the way Sepp should if people do that to him.

I get that, just wanted to share my views on the similarities and differences.. On the other hand, Pereiro more than held his own in the Alps though. I still wonder to this day how that was possible, but oh well.

 

[Red Rick]

I would take the win in a heartbeat. At the same time I'd feel kind of akward demanding of Roglic and Vingegaard they won't attack me. Still, it's not unreasonable to ask considering the work you've done for them and considering this is possibly the only chance you'll ever get. Riders should be able to advocate for themselves. And then the final decision should be up to the team car unless riders fully agree themselves to a different consensus.

I always say a lot depends on what is previously agreed with the riders, but I can't imagine anyone expected the scenario of having 1-2-3 locked up after Tourmalet. After that there's bound to be no solutions that make everyone happy. And I would argue that after stage 16 any "race it out" solutions were already completely *** because it would basically mean "lol give it to Vingegaard". And after the team car decided the Roglic vs Vingegaard battle, Kuss winning was the more satisfying outcome for all but 1 involved.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

It should be decided in a cage fight between them and their biggest fans. You'd have Kuss, Engels, LS, Roglič, Vingegaard and Tom Danielson vs Roglič, Rackham, CyclistAbi, Gargamel and Elos Anjos vs Vingegaard, Trine, Frida, GroupDK and Niermann.

I'd bring the snakes and the snacks.

Also why you putting me on the same team as Sepp and Addy? I'll turn on them faster than Revolver Ocelot on coke.

 

[Samu Cuenca]

Also why you putting me on the same team as Sepp and Addy? I'll turn on them faster than Revolver Ocelot on coke.

Well I just want to watch the world burn.

 

[CyclistAbi]

I feel that it will be perceived as a proper GT win if Kuss holds on to it tomorrow. Kuss proved he is worthy of this jersey on Angliru. Gods have send Landa.

Can't object to that.

 

[Panda Claws]

If you remove Kuss from the Vuelta now there would be nobody wearing the red jersey therefore logic would dictate that if he does race tomorrow and ends up in the red jersey it retro-actively proves that it should indeed have been his all along.

 

[Miss Violet Smith]

I feel that who is the strongest at end of a race is also influenced by the tactical decisions made before and during the race.

Can't blame any of the super competitive athletes for wanting to win or show that they have the legs, and of course this is a GT. But when the team decides whose position to protect, potentially at cost of other riders' ambition, that's part of the sport.

Perhaps this could all be sorted out through a game of rock paper scissors (ref. Majka and Pogačar).

 

[RedheadDane]

Perhaps this could all be sorted out through a game of rock paper scissors (ref. Majka and Pogačar).

How do we know they didn't do that?