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Guilty until proven innocent

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Stealth

Oct 2, 2009
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Why are cyclists guilty of doping until proven innocent? Take Michael Rasmussen for example; did he ever actually fail a drug test?

Also doping controls are out of control, they can’t be trusted. Take Floyd Landis’s case for example (http://www.cbass.com/FloydLandis.htm); there are too many irregularities. In a U.S. court of law his case would have been thrown out.

The doping problem in cycling is not with the cyclists. It is with anti-doping agencies around the world.

In soccer, players caught doping, are banned for life. Cyclists should be as well, but we need an anti-doping agency that we can trust!
 
A

Anonymous

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Rassmussen was pulled out of the Tour for lying to his team and the whereabouts system. He missed a test because he was in Italy when he was supposed to be in Mexico. What would someone be up to that they would violate the system and lie to an employer, making a sponsor look really bad? What would he have been doing in Italy that he had to hide?
 
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theswordsman said:
Rassmussen was pulled out of the Tour for lying to his team and the whereabouts system. He missed a test because he was in Italy when he was supposed to be in Mexico. What would someone be up to that they would violate the system and lie to an employer, making a sponsor look really bad? What would he have been doing in Italy that he had to hide?
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check this out http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=features/2007/rasmussen_nov07, here is a quote from Rassmussen in this article "I would like to clearly state that I was not in Mexico in June. I have therefore misinformed both the UCI and the public. It is however important for me to stress that at no point did I lie to the Rabobank team," Rasmussen said. Rasmussen insisted that his employer Rabobank knew the truth. "I have never told lies to Rabobank. They knew all the time where I was and why."

put yourself in his shoes. If you had to file paperwork about everywhere you went (all the time) it would get a little old, and I'm sure he figured it would be no big deal since his team knew where he was and why.

Once again, did he ever fail a test? I understand he broke the rules and that he needed to file paperwork on his whereabouts but 2 years and a lose of total credibility? Way too harsh.
 
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El Imbatido said:
Rasmussen also retroactively tested positive for R-epo. So much for that theory....
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My point proven!

Guilty until proven innocent, or maybe guitly in Rasmussen's case, or maybe a test was manipulated because someone needed to safe face for making him serve a 2 year ban.

Either way Rassmussen was sentenced before he was proven guilty, why is that? Wether or not he was doping isnt the point.
 
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B.Rasmussen

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Stealth said:
Why are cyclists guilty of doping until proven innocent? Take Michael Rasmussen for example; did he ever actually fail a drug test?

Also doping controls are out of control, they can’t be trusted. Take Floyd Landis’s case for example (http://www.cbass.com/FloydLandis.htm); there are too many irregularities. In a U.S. court of law his case would have been thrown out.

The doping problem in cycling is not with the cyclists. It is with anti-doping agencies around the world.

In soccer, players caught doping, are banned for life. Cyclists should be as well, but we need an anti-doping agency that we can trust!
Click to expand...


Wrong forum to discuss this. Please use the clinic next time.
 
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B.Rasmussen

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Stealth said:
I think doping plays a pretty big part in road racing, but your advice will be taken. Thanks
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Professional road racing A place to discuss all things related to current professional road races. Here, you can also touch on the latest news relating to professional road racing. A doping discussion free forum.

You are right that it's a big part of cycling, but the clinic forum is there to keep doping discussions out of every single topic in here. :)
 
Susan Westemeyer

Susan Westemeyer

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Stealth said:
put yourself in his shoes. If you had to file paperwork about everywhere you went (all the time) it would get a little old, and I'm sure he figured it would be no big deal since his team knew where he was and why.
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He did not have to report his whereabouts to his team. He had to report them to the UCI and the WADA.

And it doesn't matter if he didn't like filling out the forms constantly (by the way it is all done online, no "paperwork"), he was required to do it.

Susan
 
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Stealth

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Susan Westemeyer said:
Yes it does, but the forum rules say that doping discussions belong in the Clinic, so I am moving this thread to that subforum.

Susan
Click to expand...

Thank you Susan, it was an honest mistake, I guess I really am a newby. But lets get back to the original topic GUILTY UNTIL PROVEN INNOCENT.
 
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Stealth

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Susan Westemeyer said:
He did not have to report his whereabouts to his team. He had to report them to the UCI and the WADA.

And it doesn't matter if he didn't like filling out the forms constantly (by the way it is all done online, no "paperwork"), he was required to do it.

Susan
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like I said "I understand he broke the rules and that he needed to file paperwork on his whereabouts, but 2 years and a lose of total credibility? Way too harsh."

if it is done online or on actual paper, I think it can still be called paperwork, or is there a better word for it?
 
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Stealth

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Susan Westemeyer said:
He was not found guilty of doping. He was found guilty of violating the whereabouts rules, which he admitted.

Susan
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El Imbatido said:
Rasmussen also retroactively tested positive for R-epo. So much for that theory....
Click to expand...

So, Susan, I guess he actually was guilty of doping.
 
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B.Rasmussen

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Stealth said:
like I said "I understand he broke the rules and that he needed to file paperwork on his whereabouts, but 2 years and a lose of total credibility? Way too harsh."

if it is done online or on actual paper, I think it can still be called paperwork, or is there a better word for it?
Click to expand...

He didn't just forget to file the papers, he gave wrong information on purpose so he could be somewhere else without the vampires showing up at a bad time. Misleading the testers so you can avoid testing = doping in the rules, and rightly so.
 
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brianf7

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Not guilty under our Westminister justice system it is their job to prove guilt and we dont have to help in any way whatsoever.

In many other countrys it is different.

UCI and WADA beleive they are above the law but they are not.

TUE applications someone who is on a drug for life and has been for past 20 years then along come WADA and say no you cant use it.

That is applying law in retrospect and they get away with it untill you chalenge them under diferent laws that CAS cant rule on.

They are constitutional laws remember that always. which differ in every country in most cases these chalenges are in public interest so they cost you nothing never be afraid of what the High Court can do.
 
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Stealth

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That's my point. Shouldn't we have to prove, I mean really prove that someone is guilty? When will this witch hunt end? When will tampered doping tests be a thing of the past?
 
frenchfry

frenchfry

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Stealth said:
Why are cyclists guilty of doping until proven innocent? Take Michael Rasmussen for example; did he ever actually fail a drug test?

Also doping controls are out of control, they can’t be trusted. Take Floyd Landis’s case for example (http://www.cbass.com/FloydLandis.htm); there are too many irregularities. In a U.S. court of law his case would have been thrown out.

The doping problem in cycling is not with the cyclists. It is with anti-doping agencies around the world.

In soccer, players caught doping, are banned for life. Cyclists should be as well, but we need an anti-doping agency that we can trust!
Click to expand...

Excellent comments. You are absolutly right, no suspensions without failed drug tests. And since drug tests aren't reliable, no suspensions at all.

This will make life easier for a lot of athletes, and will create lots of employment for "doctors" and their gynecological clinics. Of course some people at WADA and drug testing labs will lose their jobs but they are all corrupt and incompetant anyway.

You are on to something here. No reasonable person could disagree.
 
A

Anonymous

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Those damned Euro's are just jealous of America anyway. They should be grateful after [we] saved their a55e5 from Hitler and Churchill. They'd be speaking Nazi if it wasn't for [us].






:p
 
afpm90

afpm90

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Stealth said:
Why are cyclists guilty of doping until proven innocent? Take Michael Rasmussen for example; did he ever actually fail a drug test?

Also doping controls are out of control, they can’t be trusted. Take Floyd Landis’s case for example (http://www.cbass.com/FloydLandis.htm); there are too many irregularities. In a U.S. court of law his case would have been thrown out.

The doping problem in cycling is not with the cyclists. It is with anti-doping agencies around the world.

In soccer, players caught doping, are banned for life. Cyclists should be as well, but we need an anti-doping agency that we can trust!
Click to expand...

I've never seen that! Why are you making things up? Don't lie. If a soccer player is caught doping, he will get a 2 year ban like any other athlete. And this rarely happens, unfortunely. For example Cannavaro tested positive this year and wasn't even banned...
 
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Anonymous

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This guy is harder to kill than Rasputin. "Ignore" is your friend.
 
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Moondance

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So Rasmussen lies and obfuscates about his whereabouts to avoid taking doping tests.... To me there's very little difference between what Rasmussen did and taking dope, and fortunately missing doping tests is also punishable. And in retrospect everyone else was right, since tests from the 2007 Tour have confirmed the presence of Dynepo in the case of Michael Rasmussen.

Proven guilty.
 
Bala Verde

Bala Verde

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afpm90 said:
I've never seen that! Why are you making things up? Don't lie. If a soccer player is caught doping, he will get a 2 year ban like any other athlete. And this rarely happens, unfortunely. For example Cannavaro tested positive this year and wasn't even banned...
Click to expand...

Check this storyabout Jaap Stam, Edgar Davids and Ronald de Boer, who all tested positive for nandrolon (or some other drug). At most they got a 4 months suspension?

Some quotes:

Stam:
"I cannot believe what's happened and feel sick at the suggestion I would take drugs"

"I do not know why the test should come out positive and I am in a state of shock.

"One thing I can say without hesitation or doubt is I have never knowingly taken nandrolone or any other illegal substance"
Click to expand...

Lazio/Medical Chief Andrea Campi
We are all very surprised at this news. Our players, and above all one like the Dutchman, use mineral salts and medicines which are totally certified according to the codes set out by CONI,
Click to expand...

furthermore:
Campi said that four days after the Atalanta match 10 Lazio players had undergone an unannounced random doping test by a CONI team who visited the club's Formello training ground.

Stam was not among the 10 but Lazio then carried out their own tests on all their players and the results from a laboratory in Milan were all negative
Click to expand...

:p
 
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