Hardest MTF in Tour de France 2011

[Bavarianrider]

Better example

Take Macugnana in the Giro.
It's easier than Montevergine.
On Montevergine, 1st week of the Giro, hardly any differences in the top 30.
Then comes Macugnana, an easier climb in the 3rd week, and.... a lot of differences, even in the top 5

Still doesn't mean Macugnana is more selective than Montevergine, in fact, that would be total bull****. Put Macugnana in the 1st week and you get a mass sprint probably.
Put Montevergine in the 3rd week and you get a massacre.

However BR doesn't get this concept probably.

Obviusly when i am discussing the hardest MTf in the Tour, then i am assuming that this climb will be raced during the Tour.
Plateau de Beille in this years Tour will be more selective then Zoncolan in this years Giro, you don't get this?

 

[benpounder]

Check out the stage profile on http://www.letour.fr, there are around 70k's of climbing before they reach the top of The Col D'Agnel! (Where do you get 23k from Briancon to the top of the Galibier? It's actually about 35k, and from the Lauteret it is about 8 or 9k to the top?). Not nit picking just trying to understand where you got your figures from?

As ASO, (and all other race organizers) tend to have abitrary starting points, it is usual to find different numbers associated with the climbs. From the official website, Col Agnel is 23.7km @ 6.5%, Col d'Izoard is 14.1km @ 7.3%, and Col du Galibier is 22.8km @ 4.9%. Obviously, all three have more kms that can be considered climbing: Agnel from Casteldelfino-21.5km, from Brossasco-48.5km, Izoard-18km, and Galibier from Briancon - 37km.

For the sake of discussion we ought to use the official numbers - irrespective of whether or not we agree with where an actual climb starts.

I voted for Plateau de Beille because I thought the poll question was what finishing climb was the most difficult, not which stage is the most difficult.

 

[Fus087]

so this

is harder than this

Well of course. It's more than 5 kms longer.

*This post may include sarcasm.

 

[hfer07]

looking at the stage profiles- plateau de Baille is the hardest one, because of the previous mountain passes added to the legs-even as a sole climb-it's a tough one. Luz Ardiden has simmilar conditions to deal with for the riders-so that's my second place. the Galibier-difficult in terms of length & wind conditions-there are some sections where the riders are literally at the mercy of the elements-wind blowing everywhere, no shade if is hot, no tree protection, etc.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

That doesn't mean it's more selective, the Giro and Tour are completely different races, you can't just compare two climbs from two different races, and then conclude which climb is more selective based on time differences.

This would inevitably lead to contradictions. Is La Toussuire an incredibly easy climb, because nobody in the Dauphiné can make a difference on it, or is it hard, because in the Tour the differences are big?

Giro mountaintops:

Montevergine di Mercigliano
1 Bart DE CLERCQ (OLO) 2'54'47"
10 Christophe LE MEVEL (GRM) m.t.

Etna (Rifugio Sapienza)
1 Alberto CONTADOR VELASCO (SBS) 4'54'09"
10 Hubert DUPONT (ALM) +1'07"

Großglockner
1 José Humberto RUJANO GUILLÉN (AND) 4'54'45"
10 Denis MENCHOV (GEO) +1'36"

Monte Zoncolan
1 Igor ANTÓN HERNÁNDEZ (EUS) 5'04'26"
10 José Humberto RUJANO GUILLÉN (AND) +2'10"

Val di Fassa (Rifugio Gardeccia)
1 Mikel NIEVE ITURRALDE (EUS) 7'27'14"
10 Steven KRUIJSWIJK (RAB) +4'13"

Nevegal (CLM)
1 Alberto CONTADOR VELASCO (SBS) 28'55"
10 Vladimir MIHOLJEVIC (ASA) +1'04"

Macugnaga
1 Paolo TIRALONGO (AST) 5'26'27"
10 Kanstantin SIUTSOU (THR) +34"

Sestrières
1 Vasil KIRYIENKA (MOV) 6'17'03"
10 Roman KREUZIGER (AST) +6'16"

Here we have the follies of using the time gaps to judge how hard a stage is raced or how hard a climb is.

Simply using the time gaps, it is clear that the toughest climbs are Rifugio Gardeccia (which is only 6km long) and Sestrières (which isn't very steep). As the race goes on, the gaps get bigger. Partly this is because the climbs DO get harder as the race goes on (Zoncolan is tougher than Großglockner is tougher than Etna is tougher than Montevergine) but does anybody genuinely believe that Nevegal is as selective a mountain as Etna? Being an ITT really skews things.

As does the state of the race, of course. Gardeccia was the toughest stage of the race, but the first finisher was part of the day's break. Take Nieve and Garzelli out of it, the next 10 finishers were split over 2'39", a larger gap than Zoncolan, befitting of the stage's queen status. But this doesn't make the final climb a tougher one. It would be foolhardy to suggest that the larger gap is an indicator of the final climb's toughness, especially as the Crostis was taken out. Similarly, Sestrières' difficulty is artificially inflated by a) a much tougher preceding climb, and b) Kiryienka smoking the field by nearly 5 minutes from the breakaway. Sestrières is not a hard climb in itself; its role in a stage like that is to carve open gaps that were already there, make legs that had long since been screaming for murder force their way uphill again. It's a bit like Aprica in that respect; Aprica is not a selective climb in and of itself. But put it after the Mortirolo and see situations like 2008 where there was 9 minutes between various GC contenders there.

If you wanted to use the times taken to climb the mountain, or the time gaps produced, as a proper indicator of difficulty, then I feel like you could only really apply this in the case of a mountain time trial because that is the only situation where it is the same in both instances. And as I illustrated before, by comparing the Santuario di Ooropa and Kronplatz ITTs, the steeper, nastier climb produced much, much bigger gaps.

 

[skippy]

Doesn't matter what the TV viewer thinks each day will produce pain for the racer and with the unremitting pressure to perform even the easiest combination will become the hardest day !

Having ridden most if not all of these climbs in different combinations at my own pace i feel sorry for those who will find themselves under the cosh . ALL will work hard to stay within the time limits imposed by the winner and being in the "grupetto" will provide no relief for many .

Several weeks ago the Dutch raised 20m+euros for a charity with many riding the Alp d'Huez 6 times BUT several "hand bikers" did it 3 times , WHO were the true champions that day ?

 

[Winterfold]

I went for the finish on the Galibier as the hardest stage, but the stage to the Alpe could be carnage if the race is not decided and it is raced hard.

The descent from the Galibier to Bourg d'Oisins is not that steep and you cannot coast all the way so an attack on the Galibier could take a lot of effort to pull back.

I still think 3 times over 2000m with finish on the Galibier is the toughest though.

 

[auscyclefan94]

Let's make a avatar bet. I say that time gaps will be a bigger on the Plateau de Beille then they were on teh Zoncolan!

You very well may be right as Tony will need some car assistance to get up the Plateau De Beille hence why the gaps will be bigger.

Lol @ Bavarianrider.
His ignorance never ceases to amaze me.

 

[Pilgaard]

Since the question is regarding the hardest MTF in 2011, I think it is important to analyze just the MTF, and not the preceding climbs.
In that case it is a question of the length of the climb, how steep it is, and the altitude. I have used the official numbers from the TdF-webpage.

Luz Ardiden: 13 km, 7,4 %, 1715 m
Plateau de Beille: 15,8 km, 7,9 %, 1780 m
Galibier: 22,8 km, 4,9 %, 2645 m
Alpe d'Huez: 13,8 km, 7,9 %, 1850 m

Then we have three rather identical MTF and the Galibier, which is quite different from the others.
The Plateau de Beille is marginally harder than Alpe d'Huez and Luz Ardiden. It then comes down to whether the length and altitude of the Galibier makes it more difficult than the Plateau de Beille. In my opinion the gradient is the most important part in making a climb difficult, so my vote goes for Plateau de Beille.

Which MTF will be ridden the hardest is difficult to say, as the Plateau has a long flat section before it, so the preceding climbs may not be ridden with too much speed.
I actually think the Luz Ardiden stage is the best of the lot this year. The last 70 with nothing but ascents and descents, making it the best opportunity for an attack before the final climb. But as it is the first mountain stage, I fear that the riders will wait until Luz Ardiden anyway.
Would be excellent to use next year as the final mountain stage, as it really gives an opportunity to the riders who might be a few minutes down on the GC.

 

[Michielveedeebee]

Let's make a avatar bet. I say that time gaps will be a bigger on the Plateau de Beille then they were on teh Zoncolan!

allright, from 1st to 2nd or from 1st to 10th ?
you'll get a fabian cancellara avatar if you lose, if you win I'll get?

EDIT: we already have an avatar bet so we can't have a 2nd one ^^

 

[gregrowlerson]

I voted for stage 14, but the hardest overall stage is 18.

 

[Bavarianrider]

allright, from 1st to 2nd or from 1st to 10th ?
you'll get a fabian cancellara avatar if you lose, if you win I'll get?

EDIT: we already have an avatar bet so we can't have a 2nd one ^^

1-10!
You'll get Angela Merkel

 

[craig1985]

I'm going for the Galibier. After more than two weeks of racing, plus the length and altitude will be the real factor. The stage to Luz Ardiden will be another hard one with the Tourmalet and when you get to the bottom, you turn left and you start climbing. In saying that though I think many GC guys and domestiques will descend like madmen to be able to back on.

 

[auscyclefan94]

The thread needs to be more clear, are we suppose to base our choices on the climb itself or the climb and the context it is in relation to the stage and the rest of the tour?