Teams & Riders He's coming home!!!! Alejandro Valverde comeback thread.

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What will Valverde's impact be the cycling world in 2012

  • Nuclear Holocoust

    Votes: 22 100.0%

  • Total voters
    22
Maaaaaaaarten said:
Every rider who won a GT, a monument or the WC had a better year than Valverde, just saying.
I don't agree with that statement in the slightest. For example, Dan Martin did not have a better season than Valverde. Not even remotely close. There are a couple of those guys you could argue but most certainly didn't.
 
Oct 23, 2011
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jaylew said:
I don't agree with that statement in the slightest. For example, Dan Martin did not have a better season than Valverde. Not even remotely close. There are a couple of those guys you could argue but most certainly didn't.
Well, we will probably have to agree to disagree, but if Dan Martin had 1 race day where he won Lombardia, I would still think he had a better season than Valverde. I really do think that Kristoff, Cancellara, Terpstra, Gerrans, Quintana, Nibali, Contador, Kwiatkowski and Dan Martin had better seasons than Valverde, by merit of actually winning a really big race. I also think that Valverde's seasons with LBL wins and the Vuelta win are better than his season this year. But it's a different way of thinking I guess, I doubt whether a discussion about this would be very fruitful.

By the way, I can understand how you can think can think Valverde had a better season than Dan Martin or Terpstra this year, though I strongly disagree, but I can't understand how Valverde can think this season was better than 2006 (FW, LBL, 2nd Vuelta + stage, 3rd WC), 2008 (LBL, Dauphine, San Sebastian, Vuelta stage, TDF 2 stages) or 2009 (Vuelta, Dauphine, Catalunya). When I read a statement like in this interview, I am a bit annoyed by how little value he seems to attach to actually winning compared to how much value he seems to attach to getting 2nd or 3rd.
 
Maaaaaaaarten said:
Well, we will probably have to agree to disagree, but if Dan Martin had 1 race day where he won Lombardia, I would still think he had a better season than Valverde. I really do think that Kristoff, Cancellara, Terpstra, Gerrans, Quintana, Nibali, Contador, Kwiatkowski and Dan Martin had better seasons than Valverde, by merit of actually winning a really big race. I also think that Valverde's seasons with LBL wins and the Vuelta win are better than his season this year. But it's a different way of thinking I guess, I doubt whether a discussion about this would be very fruitful.

By the way, I can understand how you can think can think Valverde had a better season than Dan Martin or Terpstra this year, though I strongly disagree, but I can't understand how Valverde can think this season was better than 2006 (FW, LBL, 2nd Vuelta + stage, 3rd WC), 2008 (LBL, Dauphine, San Sebastian, Vuelta stage, TDF 2 stages) or 2009 (Vuelta, Dauphine, Catalunya). When I read a statement like in this interview, I am a bit annoyed by how little value he seems to attach to actually winning compared to how much value he seems to attach to getting 2nd or 3rd.
Actually Terpstra could be defended, unlike Martin. Martin? Seriously? He doesn't even make top 10, maybe not top 15. It's simplistic to say that a rider who won a monument automatically had a better season than everyone who didn't. By that logic, you could win Lombardia, have a completely sh*t season otherwise and have a better season that someone who placed 2nd at 2 GTs, 3 monuments, and the WC. It's just ludicrous. We're talking about the best season and not best win or month.

I do agree with you that this wasn't Valverde's best season, though it was certainly one of his best.
 
jaylew said:
While you've got that ridiculous shirt as your avatar it makes it hard to take anything you say seriously. I'm really hoping you just lost an avatar bet, Netserk :eek:
Nope, chose it myself. Ryo on the other hand is too much of a coward to wear the avatar I chose for him when he lost our bet. Even continues to lie about it :eek:

...

The whole point for me is that cycling is about winning. 2nd place is just the best of the losers. Any win is imo better than any loss. Valverde did win, but he didn't win big (enough).
 
Netserk said:
Nope, chose it myself. Ryo on the other hand is too much of a coward to wear the avatar I chose for him when he lost our bet. Even continues to lie about it :eek:

...

The whole point for me is that cycling is about winning. 2nd place is just the best of the losers. Any win is imo better than any loss. Valverde did win, but he didn't win big (enough).
Different philosophies, as Maaaaarten said. When I get 2nd or 3rd or 4th in a race, I'm kinda p*ssed I didn't win, but I'm really happy I got the good placing I did. I completely disagree with that "2nd place is the best of the losers" idea. When things are fairly close, the bigger win wins out for me but when everything else is so lopsided (as in the D Martin example) it doesn't. And you say it's about winning, but Martin only won one race while Valverde was one of the winningest riders in the peloton (and the winningest non-bunch sprinter) this year. And he won good races, not ssrs.

Guy did exactly 23 different races this year. One days, GTs, other stage races. 17 times he finished top 5 overall and only one of those was 5th. That means he finished top 4 in most of the biggest races of the year. It's hard for me to understand any spin where Martin had a better season.

Not to mention the head to head. They went head to head in 6 of the biggest races on the calendar. 5-1, Valverde.

I generally like Ryo as a poster, but the bet thing is lame if true. I kinda remember the bet but not the exact wording.
 
jaylew said:
Actually Terpstra could be defended, unlike Martin. Martin? Seriously? He doesn't even make top 10, maybe not top 15. It's simplistic to say that a rider who won a monument automatically had a better season than everyone who didn't. By that logic, you could win Lombardia, have a completely sh*t season otherwise and have a better season that someone who placed 2nd at 2 GTs, 3 monuments, and the WC. It's just ludicrous. We're talking about the best season and not best win or month.

I do agree with you that this wasn't Valverde's best season, though it was certainly one of his best.
Valverde certainly had a season that will have felt better than those of a Martin or Terstra during it. And he will have had a better season in terms of keeping his sponsors visible. And he obviously had a better season in terms of consistency and in terms of numbers of wins. All of these things are important.

On the other hand, when people list Valverde's (stellar but still not as good as they should have been) career palmares in years to come, nothing he did this season will be mentioned apart from Flèche. After a career is over, nobody cares about the placings of riders who have actually won anything significant unless they are being berated for losing all the time. Nobody cares about the quantity of little wins a big winner has either, unless they are mentioned as an afterthought about consistency. In that sense, both Terpstra and Martin added more to their palmares. Whatever else happens in their careers, thanks to 2014 Martin is a winner of both hilly classics and Terpstra is a Roubaix winner. That actually does enhance their status forever.
 
Interesting points and a different way to look at it. Appreciated. If the question was who added more to their palmarès this year, I'd definitely have to do some more thinking.

But for me, if someones's asking me who had a better season in any given year I'm going to go back and look at that year and analyze the results, but then I'm an analytical person.
 
Netserk said:
The whole point for me is that cycling is about winning. 2nd place is just the best of the losers. Any win is imo better than any loss. Valverde did win, but he didn't win big (enough).
He won seven races, including two classics. And he also won a stage in a grand tour in which he finished on the podium.

Even if we ignore all his podiums in the WC, LBL and Lombardia, Strade Bianche and 4th place in the TdF, he has obviously had a great season.

There is no way that one win all season, even if it is Lombardia, is better than that.
 
DFA123 said:
He won seven races, including two classics. And he also won a stage in a grand tour in which he finished on the podium.

Even if we ignore all his podiums in the WC, LBL and Lombardia, Strade Bianche and 4th place in the TdF, he has obviously had a great season.

There is no way that one win all season, even if it is Lombardia, is better than that.
He won 11! (not counting the Vuelta TTT, and point classification in Andalucia)
 
Aug 16, 2013
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Ruudz0r said:
He won 11! (not counting the Vuelta TTT, and point classification in Andalucia)
But 7 of them were 1.1. races or lower.

Still a terrific season, but not a shocking one. Didn't won a GT, or monument.
 
DFA123 said:
He won seven races, including two classics. And he also won a stage in a grand tour in which he finished on the podium.

Even if we ignore all his podiums in the WC, LBL and Lombardia, Strade Bianche and 4th place in the TdF, he has obviously had a great season.

There is no way that one win all season, even if it is Lombardia, is better than that.
Theo Bos won nine races. Yet I'd trade his whole career of minor wins for one monument in a heartbeat.

Valverde actually won more than seven races, but even if he'd won seventeen, only Fleche will ever be mentioned again when discussing his career achievements. Perhaps San Sebastián if a completist is talking.

Valverde is Valverde, not a kid starting out or some decent but unremarkable rider for whom every win is a big deal. Only big wins shift the needle for him. Grand Tour wins, Monument wins, the WC, major non-monument classics, GT stages, the most important one week races. All the rest is borderline irrelevant when assessing the career of someone who has won a GT and LBL twice. At best his other wins and placings will end up as a little one line anecdote about how consistent he was after his big wins have been listed. Or worse still as a hostile point about how much he should have won.
 
Short version: in ten years time Valverde is primarily that guy who won the Vuelta, LBL twice, Flèche twice, the Dauphine twice, Catalunya, San Sebastián twice, plus whatever else he picks up. He is not primarily that guy who won seven metric tons of **** small races.
 
Zinoviev Letter said:
Short version: in ten years time Valverde is primarily that guy who won the Vuelta, LBL twice, Flèche twice, the Dauphine twice, Catalunya, San Sebastián twice, plus whatever else he picks up. He is not primarily that guy who won seven metric tons of **** small races.
I think I would remember him as the best all round cyclist of his generation. The only one who could regularly compete at the top end in both Grand Tours and One Day Races. Podiums in the GTs and monuments certainly form part of that.
 
Zinoviev Letter said:
Short version: in ten years time Valverde is primarily that guy who won the Vuelta, LBL twice, Flèche twice, the Dauphine twice, Catalunya, San Sebastián twice, plus whatever else he picks up. He is not primarily that guy who won seven metric tons of **** small races.
Perhaps to some, but hopefully not to most who actually saw him race. 6 worlds podiums won't be soon forgotten either in my book.
DFA123 said:
I think I would remember him as the best all round cyclist of his generation. The only one who could regularly compete at the top end in both Grand Tours and One Day Races. Podiums in the GTs and monuments certainly form part of that.
This. Though I will also remember all the ones that got away, most particularly Worlds.
 
DFA123 said:
I think I would remember him as the best all round cyclist of his generation. The only one who could regularly compete at the top end in both Grand Tours and One Day Races. Podiums in the GTs and monuments certainly form part of that.
+1000. Add in the week long stage races that he made the podium and I can only think of Purito and Evans that are anywhere in the same zip code of his vast range of races that he found success.
 
Jun 30, 2014
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Angliru said:
+1000. Add in the week long stage races that he made the podium and I can only think of Purito and Evans that are anywhere in the same zip code of his vast range of races that he found success.
I know he's not in the same league as these guys, but Cunego has an underrated Palmares and is the only other guy that could come close to those 3. Purito lacks a GT win or another big win like LBL to compete with Valverde, Evans should have focused more on classics.
 
Mayomaniac said:
I know he's not in the same league as these guys, but Cunego has an underrated Palmares and is the only other guy that could come close to those 3. Purito lacks a GT win or another big win like LBL to compete with Valverde, Evans should have focused more on classics.
Yes, Cunego is another good all-rounder; I agree that he is very much under-rated, probably because he has had years where he has been off the radar. I guess you could throw Vino in there as well (GT, 2xLBL* and an Olympics is pretty handy).

All of those guys though seemed to get their results during a 4 year spell. Valverde has been strongly competitive in pretty much every race he has targeted for over 10 years (albeit with a 2 year break!).
 
Jun 30, 2014
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DFA123 said:
Yes, Cunego is another good all-rounder; I agree that he is very much under-rated, probably because he has had years where he has been off the radar. I guess you could throw Vino in there as well (GT, 2xLBL* and an Olympics is pretty handy).

All of those guys though seemed to get their results during a 4 year spell. Valverde has been strongly competitive in pretty much every race he has targeted for over 10 years (albeit with a 2 year break!).
I only thougt about active riders, but Vino would be in the same league. You already listed some of his biggest wins, add Four Days of Dunkirk, a Tour podium, Critérium du Dauphiné Libéré, Deutschland Tour, 2X Paris–Nice, Amstel Gold Race, Tour de Suisse, Chrono des Nations and Giro del Trentino, that's impressive.
 

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