Horrific crash at Las Vegas speedway

[Izzy eviel]

Unfortunately for the drivers they aren't quite the franchise in Indy that Dale Sr. was to Nascar. The Nascar standards are much, much higher comparitivly because of his franchise value and the current crop have a better opportunity to survive because of it. Indycars have been so strained for crowds they'd pack 35 drivers on this track, mix in rookies and retreads and see what happens. If you watched the coverage you saw a very sparse crowd. Cynically I would wonder what the crowd numbers will be from here on.

Indycars has always had tiny crowds. The whole series lives of the INDY 500. With the new cars being introduced next season this was meant to be the way to say goodbye to the old era and to start the rebirth of Indycars. Everyone knew there'd be crashes and trouble, but everyone involved realised this was a great way to promote a struggling series. Sadly things went catastrophically wrong. There's no-one thing to blame, just a combination of things. It could all so easily have been a different story. It will happen again in racing. You can't predict everything.

 

[richwagmn]

Found this interesting.

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/moto...-johnson-dan-wheldon-indycar-ovals/50805668/1

 

[ImmaculateKadence]

I've never been a fan of any type of motor racing. It has simply never appealed to me. But regardless of your interest in sports, you have to be a cold-hearted person not to feel some sense of sadness at what happened. When I was a kid, I was a fan of that movie Point Break, and there was a line that said "it's not tragic to die doing what you love." As an impressional young kid, that line always stuck with me, and when something like this happens in sports, I can't help but think it's not true. Sure, he didn't pass under tragic circumstances; he was doing what he loved and was best at, but it's a life cut way too short with a wife and two young kids left behind. That's the tragedy, especially if it could have prevented, but that's a discussion for another day. My heart goes out to his entire family.

 

[roundabout]

To echo Izzy eviel, I don't see that there was anything wrong with the track. The organisers fouled up by putting 34 cars on it. You can put 40+ NASCAR tin-tops on a short course, but they run slower and offer the driver more protection in the case of an accident (plus you don't get the same horrific interlocking wheel problem). You couldn't put 34 cars on that course. And with such a high bounty on it enticing non-regular season participants, meaning a lot of part-time entries who weren't racing these cars regularly at high level, and of varying experience levels (Wheldon of course was the most high profile of them).

Given the way the IndyCar series has gone since the reunification and how the car counts have fluctuated, this probably seemed like a good idea, to entice part-time drivers in to create a festival atmosphere, more competition and to allow people the chance to shine ahead of selections for the next year's racing. But they went too far, and there were simply too many cars for the course.

Motor racing is never truly safe, and oval racing in particular. But while the death may be avoidable, it wasn't Las Vegas Motor Speedway that caused the accident. It was too many drivers in too small a space trying to avoid a minor incident that turned what would have been a problem at any circuit into a catastrophe.

Just a quick note on the bolded part. Wheldon was the only one eligible for the money prize while it's my belief that the other part-time entries were attracted by discounts since it was the last race for the car and the engines so a chance for Honda and Dallara to make money.

 

[Maxiton]

I didn't see the race, but I saw news of the accident almost as soon as it happened. I haven't followed IndyCar racing in recent years, but what Jimmie Johnson says in the article linked above makes a lot of sense: get these cars off the oval.

The best comment I've heard so far about this stupid misfortune is one somebody left on this YouTube replay:

"Beautiful cars, beautiful technology, brilliant drivers in races planned by asses!! RIP Dan"

Now the sport is missing one of its best drivers, and a little boy, his infant brother, and their mom are missing someone they can't get back. Sad.

 

[krebs303]

"That's Racing"

Sorry if I sound callous. I have been around motorsports since my teens and have had friends and acquaintances crippled and killed. The racers will put this out of their minds ASAP or they will never strap on a helmet again. There is a catch all phrase for racing misfortunes "That's Racing" which encompasses from the trivial to the mortal. I am sorry for his family's loss and wish them well. Looking to place culpability is pointless.

 

[ramjambunath]

That Jimmie Johnson interview makes sense and even if they continue with the ovals they would need a definite run off area to slow the car down and definitely need some bollards. That would require purpose built tracks which, I believe, are not viable.

I would have loved to have seen him in the V8 supercars pitting his skills against the likes of Villeneuve (if he's driving this year).

 

[Maxiton]

Sorry if I sound callous. I have been around motorsports since my teens and have had friends and acquaintances crippled and killed. The racers will put this out of their minds ASAP or they will never strap on a helmet again. There is a catch all phrase for racing misfortunes "That's Racing" which encompasses from the trivial to the mortal. I am sorry for his family's loss and wish them well. Looking to place culpability is pointless.

That Jimmie Johnson interview makes sense and even if they continue with the ovals they would need a definite run off area to slow the car down and definitely need some bollards. That would require purpose built tracks which, I believe, are not viable.

I would have loved to have seen him in the V8 supercars pitting his skills against the likes of Villeneuve (if he's driving this year).

Per Krebs comment, I see what you're saying, but that doesn't obviate the need to make changes for the sake of safety. After all, the technology changes so why shouldn't the rules?

Let's say they keep the ovals. If you limited the speed to something manageable but still exciting, and used some kind of formula to limit the number of cars (say 10 per mile of racecourse), these kinds of things would be avoided. And it'd still be racing.

 

[krebs303]

Per Krebs comment, I see what you're saying, but that doesn't obviate the need to make changes for the sake of safety. After all, the technology changes so why shouldn't the rules?

Let's say they keep the ovals. If you limited the speed to something manageable but still exciting, and used some kind of formula to limit the number of cars (say 10 per mile of racecourse), these kinds of things would be avoided. And it'd still be racing.

There have been many advances in safety over the years. Technology has produced advances not only on board but to race tracks. To think you can make racing safe is ludicrous. Safer yes, safe no.

I can remember Orange County International Raceway in the early 70's the back straight was chain link fence on the left and trees on the right the superbikes doing 150mph next to the freeway. Nobody gave it a second thought they just wanted to race. Of course now they look back and wonder if they were nuts

"Still, it is that speed, that danger, that two-time Indianapolis 500 winner craved. Just days before his death, Wheldon told the television show "Extra" that he couldn't wait to take on this challenging track.

"I think it's going to be one of Indy Car's finest races outside of the Indianapolis 500," Wheldon said.

Before the race Wheldon blogged for USA Today that he was concerned that he and his team wouldn't be able to get his car fast enough, and that it was currently three miles off pace.

"It's actually been a very difficult weekend for us so far. Basically we carried over our problem from Kentucky Speedway, where we just didn't have the speed and never really found it," he wrote.

Now Sunday's fateful race will be remembered for robbing this sport of a champion and a young family of their husband and father.

"Daniel was born to be a racer and yesterday left us doing what he loved to do. He was a true champion and a gentleman on and off the track," his father Clive Wheldon said."

 

[ramjambunath]

Krebs, you're true in saying that racers need to have a devil may care attitude otherwise motorsport would be boring but the organisers should be responsible for improving safety and the road seemed like a traffic lane not a motorsport arena.

Yes Maxiton, I undestand what you're saying, but firstlythe speed won't be reduced too much (that's the attraction). Reducing traffic will surely help in safety but driver error and punctures would still lead in a high speed crash straight into a wall of concrete. If they could the road and have run offs and bollards, that would be very good.

Jody Scheckter has asked his son to reconsider his career in Indycar.

 

[Maxiton]

There have been many advances in safety over the years. Technology has produced advances not only on board but to race tracks. To think you can make racing safe is ludicrous. Safer yes, safe no.

I can remember Orange County International Raceway in the early 70's the back straight was chain link fence on the left and trees on the right the superbikes doing 150mph next to the freeway. Nobody gave it a second thought they just wanted to race. Of course now they look back and wonder if they were nuts

"Still, it is that speed, that danger, that two-time Indianapolis 500 winner craved. Just days before his death, Wheldon told the television show "Extra" that he couldn't wait to take on this challenging track.

"I think it's going to be one of Indy Car's finest races outside of the Indianapolis 500," Wheldon said.

Before the race Wheldon blogged for USA Today that he was concerned that he and his team wouldn't be able to get his car fast enough, and that it was currently three miles off pace.

"It's actually been a very difficult weekend for us so far. Basically we carried over our problem from Kentucky Speedway, where we just didn't have the speed and never really found it," he wrote.

Now Sunday's fateful race will be remembered for robbing this sport of a champion and a young family of their husband and father.

"Daniel was born to be a racer and yesterday left us doing what he loved to do. He was a true champion and a gentleman on and off the track," his father Clive Wheldon said."

Nobody said anything about making it safe, just safer.

 

[krebs303]

Sorry not attack against you Just rambling thoughts.

 

[BroDeal]

Tony George killed Indy racing. It's now a sad affair made even worse by the risks being taken for the last gasps of a dying race series. Wheldon wins the Indy 500 and he could not even get a regular drive for the year. That says a lot right there.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Rest in Peace, Dan for sure.

That much downforce create these insanely unstable projectiles. Don't know what would help because I love to watch fast cars as much as those guys love to drive them.

What would help is doing the kind of races the cars were built for. And that's longer ovals, and shallow-banked ovals. These cars aren't designed for steeply-banked NASCAR circuits, and they sure as hell aren't designed for 35-car-on-track paint-swapping NASCAR action. Champ Car used to run Las Vegas Motor Speedway until 2005, but when LVMS announced their plans for a change to the banking, Champ Car recognised that their cars would not be able to run the course safely - with 17 cars on track. As a result they organised a street circuit in the city instead. Champ Car had a better safety record than IRL too.

Unfortunately for the drivers they aren't quite the franchise in Indy that Dale Sr. was to Nascar. The Nascar standards are much, much higher comparitivly because of his franchise value and the current crop have a better opportunity to survive because of it. Indycars have been so strained for crowds they'd pack 35 drivers on this track, mix in rookies and retreads and see what happens. If you watched the coverage you saw a very sparse crowd. Cynically I would wonder what the crowd numbers will be from here on.

The crowds have been a problem for a long time with Indy. It's long been acknowledged that if it weren't for the 500 the series would probably have gone belly up a while ago. Champ Car had the fans and the better cars, but the draw factor of the 500 and a godawful business model meant the teams went IRL-bound. You only need to look at the 2007 Champ Car Panoz compared to the IRL Dallara that has been around for god knows how many years now to see the difference. And that Champ Car never raced on an oval because the series weren't happy it was safe enough.

I didn't see the race, but I saw news of the accident almost as soon as it happened. I haven't followed IndyCar racing in recent years, but what Jimmie Johnson says in the article linked above makes a lot of sense: get these cars off the oval.

The best comment I've heard so far about this stupid misfortune is one somebody left on this YouTube replay:

"Beautiful cars, beautiful technology, brilliant drivers in races planned by asses!! RIP Dan"

Now the sport is missing one of its best drivers, and a little boy, his infant brother, and their mom are missing someone they can't get back. Sad.

They don't need to get them off the oval. They need to get them on the right ovals, and get fewer of them on the oval.

Sorry if I sound callous. I have been around motorsports since my teens and have had friends and acquaintances crippled and killed. The racers will put this out of their minds ASAP or they will never strap on a helmet again. There is a catch all phrase for racing misfortunes "That's Racing" which encompasses from the trivial to the mortal. I am sorry for his family's loss and wish them well. Looking to place culpability is pointless.

It was racing when they didn't even stop the race when Roger Williamson was trapped upside down in his burning car and David Purley got out of his and ran across the track in front of other cars to save him. It was racing when Jackie Stewart was informed by a co-driver at the 24h Spa "look out for body parts at the Masta Kink". Things had to change from that, and they have to change now.

Tony George killed Indy racing. It's now a sad affair made even worse by the risks being taken for the last gasps of a dying race series. Wheldon wins the Indy 500 and he could not even get a regular drive for the year. That says a lot right there.

This. Tony George has ruined AOWR forever. His legacy will be hewn with blood and bankruptcy, creative, moral and financial.

 

[issoisso]

The bottom line is that these cars can be raced safely on ovals as long as it's at Richmond, Loudon, Milwaukee and other non congaline tracks.

If you want to see Indycars at Vegas or Texas or whatever, go to rFactor or iRacing or whatever. These tracks have no place on a real life Indycar schedule.

 

[MrMaillot]

The bottom line is that these cars can be raced safely on ovals as long as it's at Richmond, Loudon, Milwaukee and other non congaline tracks.

If you want to see Indycars at Vegas or Texas or whatever, go to rFactor or iRacing or whatever. These tracks have no place on a real life Indycar schedule.

I agree. Vegas and Texas are too fast considering the steepness of the Banking. Indy is fast, but it's not as steep in the corners, and therefore has a large grid. Places like Michigan and Texas shouldn't be anywhere near Open Wheel Cars.

One thing that I've seen pointed out on other forums is that IndyCar hasn't really had its wake-up call until now. CART had a much better safety record, but they worked on safety, and when Greg Moore was killed they made sure that it shouldn't be able to happen again. IndyCar has had four deaths in the past 15 years, plus a few accidents that ended with serious injuries. But they didn't do anything, possibly because none of the fatal accidents until now happened during a race - Scott Brayton in a warm-up session, Tony Renna in testing, and Paul Dana in a warm-up session. This should be the wake up call they need, although they should have acted long before on the issue of cars getting airborne.

But the end result of all of this is that a really nic guy is no longer with us, and that's the real tragedy.

RIP Dan.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

But the end result of all of this is that a really nic guy is no longer with us, and that's the real tragedy.

RIP Dan.

The biggest tragedy is that they didn't sort it out after Brayton's death. They will probably have to sort it out now after Wheldon's, but that's three drivers - Renna, Dana and Wheldon - who had to die after when they should have been sorting these things out, and who died before they DID sort these things out.

There could still be accidents and there could still be fatalities - an accident like Alex Zanardi's could happen to anybody at any oval and many a road racing facility. An accident like Katherine Legge's could happen anyway with a reasonably fast corner - the car failed her, not the circuit or the series.

It's not LVMS's fault that Dan Wheldon died, but the organisers should never have been racing on LVMS in the first place. As I said before, Champ Car stopped racing there when the banking changed, because they realised it would no longer be safe for their cars. The Indycar Series has been gambling on safety for a while. There were horror stories of the Toronto street circuit a couple of years ago being laid out with no runoff at the end of the longest straight to save money on the catch-fencing, but teams forced a change before the end of the planning stages.

The whole point of the $5m challenge, the massively expanded grid, 34 cars on a short oval and racing Las Vegas, was about trying to get people to talk about Indycar racing again, try to attract sponsors for the 2012 season. They knew that a lot of people are attracted to NASCAR because of its close, compact racing and, sadly, its tendency to have big crashes. They were willing to buy themselves a piece of that action, and there will always be a bit of ghoulish attention for "the big one". That could be the solution to their problems. Well, they got "the big one". And they got everybody talking about Indycar racing again. But it's created a lot, a LOT, more problems than it's solved.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

I agree. Vegas and Texas are too fast considering the steepness of the Banking. Indy is fast, but it's not as steep in the corners, and therefore has a large grid. Places like Michigan and Texas shouldn't be anywhere near Open Wheel Cars.

Indy is also twice as long, nearly. They can have 60 cars at Le Mans, but you wouldn't put half as many around Barcelona.

 

[Maxiton]

Tony George killed Indy racing. It's now a sad affair made even worse by the risks being taken for the last gasps of a dying race series. Wheldon wins the Indy 500 and he could not even get a regular drive for the year. That says a lot right there.

I agree with that. To tell the truth, I lost interest in open wheel racing in the US when Tony George first had that huge conflict with CART. I knew then he was destroying the sport in the US, and I think a lot of people felt the same way. He won the battle in the end, but lost the war. And NASCAR has never been of much interest to me.

What would help is doing the kind of races the cars were built for. And that's longer ovals, and shallow-banked ovals. These cars aren't designed for steeply-banked NASCAR circuits, and they sure as hell aren't designed for 35-car-on-track paint-swapping NASCAR action. Champ Car used to run Las Vegas Motor Speedway until 2005, but when LVMS announced their plans for a change to the banking, Champ Car recognised that their cars would not be able to run the course safely - with 17 cars on track. As a result they organised a street circuit in the city instead. Champ Car had a better safety record than IRL too.

The crowds have been a problem for a long time with Indy. It's long been acknowledged that if it weren't for the 500 the series would probably have gone belly up a while ago. Champ Car had the fans and the better cars, but the draw factor of the 500 and a godawful business model meant the teams went IRL-bound. You only need to look at the 2007 Champ Car Panoz compared to the IRL Dallara that has been around for god knows how many years now to see the difference. And that Champ Car never raced on an oval because the series weren't happy it was safe enough.

They don't need to get them off the oval. They need to get them on the right ovals, and get fewer of them on the oval.
<snipped for brevity>

I agree with you on all counts.

The bottom line is that these cars can be raced safely on ovals as long as it's at Richmond, Loudon, Milwaukee and other non congaline tracks.

If you want to see Indycars at Vegas or Texas or whatever, go to rFactor or iRacing or whatever. These tracks have no place on a real life Indycar schedule.

I think it's the Bruton Smith tracks that are most dangerous. I can't believe these race organizers were so irresponsible. I mean, it doesn't take a genius to figure out what's going to happen when you put 34 open wheel cars on a short, highly banked oval, going 225 MPH, especially when some of them are part time drivers.

 

[Martin318is]

I've never been a fan of any type of motor racing. It has simply never appealed to me. But regardless of your interest in sports, you have to be a cold-hearted person not to feel some sense of sadness at what happened. When I was a kid, I was a fan of that movie Point Break, and there was a line that said "it's not tragic to die doing what you love." As an impressional young kid, that line always stuck with me, and when something like this happens in sports, I can't help but think it's not true. Sure, he didn't pass under tragic circumstances; he was doing what he loved and was best at, but it's a life cut way too short with a wife and two young kids left behind. That's the tragedy, especially if it could have prevented, but that's a discussion for another day. My heart goes out to his entire family.

Agreed - Speaking as someone whose father died when he was 2 yrs and 8 months old:

Yes, it is utterly tragic to die like this. I think that line in the movie holds true for single, selfish people. Soldiers and adventurers who won't leave someone behind are certainly free to live that moto. When you have kids though, it makes a massive difference.

My mother was only saying 4 days ago that it was terrible to watch me every time a door opened because I didn't understand my dad wasn't coming back. She said I jumped up every single time for nearly 6 months before I started to learn that there was no point.

I'll admit - in the last few days since this accident, I have cried thinking about his kids.