How did Sastre do it?

[Irondan]

Carlos Sastre's name has never been linked to anything suspect that I know of and I'm not accusing him of anything. But my question is this, how did he do it? How did he win The Tour in 2008 when it's now a forgone conclusion that the peloton was indeed doped until at least 2011. How does a clean rider beat a peloton full of cheaters in a GT such as The Tour de France?

 

[mrhender]

Carlos Sastre's name has never been linked to anything suspect that I know of and I'm not accusing him of anything. But my question is this, how did he do it? How did he win The Tour in 2008 when it's now a forgone conclusion that the peloton was indeed doped until at least 2011. How does a clean rider beat a peloton full of cheaters in a GT such as The Tour de France?

Bjarne Riis...

 

[hrotha]

Bjarne Riis...

Yes, but the thing is, Riis sent his guys to Fuentes. I guess maybe Sastre *is* in the Puerto documents, it's just that his nickname hasn't been identified, but that would be odd.

Did he continue working with Terrados after leaving ONCE? After all, Saiz stopped working with Fuentes for a while.

 

[DirtyWorks]

Never test positive?

As many are learning with the Russian corruption story, there are Lots and lots of ways to never test positive. All of them completely out of WADA's reach. We know the UCI never tests positive for some.

 

[hrotha]

Oh, I thought the question was how did Sastre dope. My bad.

 

[ray j willings]

He did it very well. A lot of riders recently have only been caught after the fact. They were never caught on the road. If Armstrong the witch-hunt had not happened then a lot of riders we now know doped would have retired or still be riding untainted.

 

[Puckfiend]

How did he do it?

Simple; there is no corresponding Travis Tygart in Spain nor a Floyd Landis to "spit in the soup".

 

[IzzyStradlin]

Other riders banking on CERA, Sastre plays it conservative and sticks with blood. Ricco gets busted, guys get scared, Sastre only has to attack once. He had by far the strongest team in the mountains.

The tortoise beat the hares.

 

[mrhender]

Yes, but the thing is, Riis sent his guys to Fuentes. I guess maybe Sastre *is* in the Puerto documents, it's just that his nickname hasn't been identified, but that would be odd.

Did he continue working with Terrados after leaving ONCE? After all, Saiz stopped working with Fuentes for a while.

Riis is known for a very close relationship with his captains...

I believe there is a coaching element, as well as Bjarne supervising Satre's programme...

Many riders have left Bjarne, only then to decline..

This is in my opinion a combination of his management skills combined with extensive doping knowledge and contacts...

 

[ray j willings]

Other riders banking on CERA, Sastre plays it conservative and sticks with blood. Ricco gets busted, guys get scared, Sastre only has to attack once. He had by far the strongest team in the mountains.

The tortoise beat the hares.

If Evans had followed instead of worrying about Andy and Frank he would have won that tour. It was a tough lesson but Evans learnt from it, when he chased down Andy in his tour winning year. You sometimes have to lose to learn how to win.

 

[May0maniac]

Riis is known for a very close relationship with his captains...

I believe there is a coaching element, as well as Bjarne supervising Satre's programme...

Many riders have left Bjarne, only then to decline..

This is in my opinion a combination of his management skills combined with extensive doping knowledge and contacts...

That reminds me of the akward moments between those two in Overcoming

 

[IzzyStradlin]

If Evans had followed instead of worrying about Andy and Frank he would have won that tour. It was a tough lesson but Evans learnt from it, when he chased down Andy in his tour winning year. You sometimes have to lose to learn how to win.

Evans tactics were terrible that day. Appallingly bad. You can't really say would've.... riding like that he was not even close.

But yes, he did learn... a few things probably.

 

[hrotha]

Riis is known for a very close relationship with his captains...

I believe there is a coaching element, as well as Bjarne supervising Satre's programme...

Many riders have left Bjarne, only then to decline..

This is in my opinion a combination of his management skills combined with extensive doping knowledge and contacts...

Riis sent Basso and Hamilton to Fuentes. They were his team leaders, together with Sastre but usually half a step above of him in the hierarchy. If Riis didn't coach Basso and Hamilton personally, I'm not sure why he'd do it with Sastre, especially considering they didn't always get along.

edit: and Fränk Schleck of course, although I would say Sastre was on top of him in the hierarchy.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

If Evans had followed instead of worrying about Andy and Frank he would have won that tour. It was a tough lesson but Evans learnt from it, when he chased down Andy in his tour winning year. You sometimes have to lose to learn how to win.

:?

Are you saying here that Schlecks could not follow a following Evans? And when they catch Sastre, you have 3 from the same team vs Evans. And none of them can attack him and get a gap enough for the win?

Coz that's what it looks like.

Could you break it down for me?

 

[hrotha]

If that's what he's saying, he's completely right. Yes, the Schlecks would have followed Evans, and it wouldn't have mattered because Fränk still finished some 3 minutes and a half behind Evans in the GC. No way they were going to make up that time except with a long range attack - which is what Sastre did, and the reason why Evans should have tried to follow him.

 

[staubsauger]

If Evans had followed instead of worrying about Andy and Frank he would have won that tour. It was a tough lesson but Evans learnt from it, when he chased down Andy in his tour winning year. You sometimes have to lose to learn how to win.

Wasn't Sastre among the L'Equipe list of 13 riders positive for CERA Ricco referred to a while ago?

Most likely he just got covered up. If he would've been caught back in 2008, the Tour would've been without a full legitimated winner 3 times in a row. It would've killed the event. PR catastrophe

Possibly that is the difference between a master genius like Riis, and an idiot directeur sportif like Holzer, who eventually told Kohl to turn it turn a bit.

Wasn't Sastre the first big gun to immediately fade away after the Biopassport was introduced? Right before Menchov!

 

[Netserk]

A shame Carlito didn't get the green light to kill 'em on Bonette as well. I see it as poetic justice that he got a great gap the next day.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

If that's what he's saying, he's completely right. Yes, the Schlecks would have followed Evans, and it wouldn't have mattered because Fränk still finished some 3 minutes and a half behind Evans in the GC. No way they were going to make up that time except with a long range attack - which is what Sastre did, and the reason why Evans should have tried to follow him.

Which is incredibly easy to see after the fact, but on the day, in the stage - is that still the decision you think Evans can make? My memory from those stages was the Schlecks were riding strong, on the front.

Personally, I think hindsight makes race tactics incredibly easy.

On the day, it's a call you have to make.

 

[yespatterns]

Despite his doping fallacies, Riis brings a lot of strategic acumen to the game, so I assume Sastre just caught a lucky break on a double bind. I'm not bringing the riders potential doping into it because I think that race was won mainly on decision making on the road (good or bad depending on your side of the fence).

 

[IzzyStradlin]

My memory from those stages was the Schlecks were riding strong, on the front.

Sastre had attacked early and was solo almost the whole climb.

The Schlecks somehow got Evans in a bizarre cat and mouse. They would jump, Evans would chase, then slow, over and over again.

 

[hrotha]

Which is incredibly easy to see after the fact, but on the day, in the stage - is that still the decision you think Evans can make? My memory from those stages was the Schlecks were riding strong, on the front.

Personally, I think hindsight makes race tactics incredibly easy.

On the day, it's a call you have to make.

It's not a decision pre-WC Evans could make, I agree. At the time, before the end of the stage, I thought it was obvious he should have taken responsibility, just like he did in 2011, if not by following Sastre immediately, then by actually chasing him before it was too late. I honestly thought Fränk's chances were gone once he waited until the final climb to act. He needed some serious time and he wasn't going to get it with that tactic.

But the fact that this was my opinion at the time, right as it happened, is still only anedcotal evidence.

 

[The Hitch]

How did he do it?

Simple; there is no corresponding Travis Tygart in Spain nor a Floyd Landis to "spit in the soup".

Jesus Manzano?

 

[ralphbert]

IMO Sastre is class as a person. Loved his interview at the 09 Tour after Pharmstrong slagged him. Don't have an opinion on his "professionalism", probably just bags. The way he used to drop out of the group at the bottom of the climb and then start to work his way back through was certainly unusual.

 

[yespatterns]

IMO Sastre is class as a person. Loved his interview at the 09 Tour after Pharmstrong slagged him. Don't have an opinion on his "professionalism", probably just bags. The way he used to drop out of the group at the bottom of the climb and then start to work his way back through was certainly unusual.

That's reminiscent of a certain sky rider of late though.

 

[Angliru]

:?

Are you saying here that Schlecks could not follow a following Evans? And when they catch Sastre, you have 3 from the same team vs Evans. And none of them can attack him and get a gap enough for the win?

Coz that's what it looks like.

Could you break it down for me?

I think his point is that had Evans done a quick analysis of the 3 CSC riders he should've concluded that Sastre was the only true threat to his winning the Tour: Andy had bonked himself out of contention, Frank would've lost minutes in the upcoming itt. Sastre, while not great versus the clock was a step or two above Frank. Dragging the brothers along in his effort to answer Sastre's attack was the best choice at that moment.