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How Often Should Mythical Climbs be Used in Grand Tours?

How Often Should Mythical Climbs be Used in Grand Tours?

  • Once a Decade

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Mar 13, 2009
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With rumors surfacing that Angliru is being brought back for the Vuelta, how often should mythical climbs be used in grand tours?

This is the first time since 2008 for Angliru, which I think is the perfect amount of time between uses.

I am not a fan of Zoncolan being used in back-to-back editions. However the Giro redeemed itself by bringing back Finestre for time since 2005, but 6 years in between uses may even be too long for my taste.

What does everyone else think?
 
nvpacchi said:
With rumors surfacing that Angliru is being brought back for the Vuelta, how often should mythical climbs be used in grand tours?

This is the first time since 2008 for Angliru, which I think is the perfect amount of time between uses.

I am not a fan of Zoncolan being used in back-to-back editions. However the Giro redeemed itself by bringing back Finestre for time since 2005, but 6 years in between uses may even be too long for my taste.

What does everyone else think?

About as many times as stupid threads like this are created.

There are other races outside Grand Tours. Its December mate.
 
Mar 13, 2009
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thehog said:
About as many times as stupid threads like this are created.

There are other races outside Grand Tours. Its December mate.

But its perfectly kosher to rehash the same drivel over and over again in the clinic? :rolleyes:

With the Tour and Giro routes announced less than a month ago, and the Vuelta announcement coming in the next month, I think this is a very appropriate time to discuss this.
 
thehog said:
About as many times as stupid threads like this are created.

There are other races outside Grand Tours. Its December mate.

Hog, that's being quite harsh.:(

I don't see this thread topic being any different than some of the one's that you initiate.

At the OP: I think 2 or 3 years is sufficient time. Having them in consecutive years only lessens their impact. Better to leave us wanting more than to have them be overused and to lose their luster.
 
They should mix it up as much as possible. Ideally they would have enough insteresting climbs to make every edition have something special in it but no so that they go over the same areas over and over again each year. The problem with having the same finishes is that it often also means a lot of the same run ins to those mountains.

I like what they have done this year in the Tour with Galibier as a finish rather than a mid stage mountain like it is most of the time.

I also think especially the Tour could benefit from being a little more inventive and original with their mountain choices. The Giro has certainly stepped up their game a lot of the time with volcano finishes and gravel mountains.
 
This is a great thread.

Personally i believe they should be used more often. Alpe d huez is so popular because its used so often even though in reality its not the best mountain, not by a long shot.

Im thinking mainly of Zoncolan, because France and SPain have other climbs to rival Tourmalet, Ventoux etc, but Zonc and Kronplats are unique.

Life is short. I dont want to go years without the Zoncolan, just so that when it is next included i will think to myself " oh this is so great because its mythical :rolleyes:".

The reason the Zoncolan is so great is because its steep, and i am a fan of cycling so i want to see great racing.

Also the Zoncolan gets amazing crowds, so hopefully the Giro will realise that it is good for them to use it more often.

Life is short. Myths are overated.
 
Oct 26, 2010
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3-5 years and sometimes 5-10 years. Just bring a lot of variation! I regret the loss of Ventoux for years, but when it's brought back it's only more mythical...
Or variation in races: Ventoux in Dauphiné, not in Tour and similar use in smaller races for mountains in Italy and Spain for the topmountains. Maybe it will generate more appreciation for Trentino, Asturias and other smaller mountain races.
 
Mar 13, 2009
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The Hitch said:
Alpe d huez is so popular because its used so often even though in reality its not the best mountain, not by a long shot.

Im thinking mainly of Zoncolan, because France and SPain have other climbs to rival Tourmalet, Ventoux etc, but Zonc and Kronplats are unique.

I feel like a big reason why Alpe d'Huez is so famous is because of the fans. Unfortunately I've never been there but it seems as though the ambiance in the curves is just amazing (especially the "dutch curve"). I also find the idea to write the names of the winners on little signs in the curves really good. In this case, I really don't mind it being "used" quite often. I think we saw it in 2006 (F. Schleck), 2008 (Sastre) and now 2011.

However I would mind if they used Mont Ventoux so often. It's by far my favourite climb/mountain in any GT. I wouldn't necessarily mind if they did it from Maulaucène or Sault, but I think the ascent from Bédoin should only be done every five years or so.

That's mostly why I voted 5 years, otherwise I'd say 3 years is fine. Every GT probably has 3 mountains/climbs that are more or less equally spectacular, so they can do one of those every year!:)

The Hitch said:
Life is short. Myths are overated.

Awesome quote, that's going on my fridge :D
 
Mar 11, 2009
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The Hitch said:
This is a great thread.

Personally i believe they should be used more often. Alpe d huez is so popular because its used so often even though in reality its not the best mountain, not by a long shot.


Alpe d'Huez is also famous because it can only be used as a finish, only one way up.
And because of the Dutch fans of course ;p

The brutality of Zoncolan more or less guarantees it will have a major influence on the final GC, that's why I wouldn't use it every year.
 
ak-zaaf said:
Alpe d'Huez is also famous because it can only be used as a finish, only one way up.
And because of the Dutch fans of course ;p

The brutality of Zoncolan more or less guarantees it will have a major influence on the final GC, that's why I wouldn't use it every year.

Not every year. Every 2 years. I dont even mind if once in a while they go 3. But not more.

Look at alpe d huez. Its been used 24 times in 34 years. This is the first time theyve gone 2 years without it.

The Zoncolan this year got Alpe d huez style crowds, despite the fact that its not the Tour, not in July and comprised mostly of italians rather than tourists.

So the Giro has found itself a climb with epic crowds. And they should use it as much as they can. Preferably every second year.

They wont use it in 2012, as they are doing alpe + probably 1 or 2 more French and maybe the Kronplatz. But in 2013 i want to see it back, then again in 2015 and in 2017.

If they continue to get the sort of crowds they got this year, it might join Ronde on that unesco heritage list :)
 
Mar 11, 2009
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The Hitch said:
Not every year. Every 2 years. I dont even mind if once in a while they go 3. But not more.

Look at alpe d huez. Its been used 24 times in 34 years. This is the first time theyve gone 2 years without it.

The Zoncolan this year got Alpe d huez style crowds, despite the fact that its not the Tour, not in July and comprised mostly of italians rather than tourists.

So the Giro has found itself a climb with epic crowds. And they should use it as much as they can. Preferably every second year.

They wont use it in 2012, as they are doing alpe + probably 1 or 2 more French and maybe the Kronplatz. But in 2013 i want to see it back, then again in 2015 and in 2017.

If they continue to get the sort of crowds they got this year, it might join Ronde on that unesco heritage list :)

You really love Zoncolan, don't you? :D
 
Jul 24, 2009
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It's around about now that someone pops up and reminds us that the Giro has only ever been over the Stelvio about six times or something like that...

It depends, according to the kind of climb. But I think Angliru and Zoncolan are both back too quickly next year. These kind of climbs should be twice a decade at most, I'd say - preferably every eight or so years. There are plenty of exciting alternatives, and they lose their shine when they're gone over frequently.

I think climbs that I'd describe as off the scale in terms of difficulty - Angliru, Zoncolan, Finestre, Kronplatz, Mont du Chat, Larrau, Ventoux, Stelvio, Fauniera etc. - should be rarities. Other climbs that are notable for similar reasons - maybe altitude, or sterrato sections, I'd generally put in a similar bracket.

I've said it before, but it's astonishing the level of affection that the Finestre has based on one use in it's history. I think the ASO really missed a trick with the Alpe d'Huez stage next year. A so-called celebration of the Alps was begging for a return to the Granon - another climb of fame which has only been scaled once (and Val-Thorens should get a mention here for the same reason) - and instead we get Alpe d'Huez. I don't mind Alpe d'Huez in and of itself, but I'm tired of its overuse and, like Lagos de Covadonga, it could do with a long lay-off. As I said, for me the shine wears off and it gets boring. The "myth" suffers as a result.

I think "mythical" passes weather frequent use better than finishes - Galibier, Madeleine, Fedaia, Giau and Tourmalet are climbs I'm far less concerned about being used regularly - but even then, perhaps the crazy ones like Mortirolo should be reserved for a bit less frequent use.

Edit: I guess what I'm saying is there are different classes of mythical climbs which should be treated distinctly. And this is a nice thread idea, by the way.
 
If I'm right about this, I understand that both the Angliru and the Zoncolan were only recently "discovered", plucked from obscurity to achieve this mythical status within the last decade or so.

So what I would like is more of this myth-making.

For there are many climbs, we are told, as yet unseen, silent and cloaked by lofty mists, waiting patiently through millions of years for just one spark of serendipitous race planning. :)
 
i find the ventou climb a bit hyped. from what i heard its very hard(if not impossible) to fit it in a very hard stage with several montains before the MTF so as a climb it can be hard but as a stage is easy compared to some others.

also if there are 2 great climbs they can go use one of those every 2 years so there is always a great climb,this is more for the vuelta now that they found the bola del mundo they could use 1 year the bola the other the angliru and once every decade they could use both. if there are more then(giro and tour) then i guess they can just play around. just don't skip places like finestre for 6 years again :)

and i agree with the hitch life is short let us enjoy our show on the great climbs. and not leave them to be talked about but never seen. i have heard a lot about many climbs that ever since i watch cycling have never been climbed. and for me they are not mythical. i don't even remember they exist.
 
Jul 24, 2009
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L'arriviste said:
If I'm right about this, I understand that both the Angliru and the Zoncolan were only recently "discovered", plucked from obscurity to achieve this mythical status within the last decade or so.

So what I would like is more of this myth-making.

For there are many climbs, we are told, as yet unseen, silent and cloaked by lofty mists, waiting patiently through millions of years for just one spark of serendipitous race planning. :)

This is especially true of Spain. There are dozens of climbs to rival the best the Giro and the Tour have to throw at the riders, which are sitting there having never been climbed for some reason. That might start to change next year with the inclusion of Fonte da Cova and/or Ancares, but I can't say I'm terribly optimistic.

Parrulo said:
i find the ventou climb a bit hyped. from what i heard its very hard(if not impossible) to fit it in a very hard stage with several montains before the MTF so as a climb it can be hard but as a stage is easy compared to some others.

Ventoux is tough enough that it doesn't require much in the way of a first course.
 

flicker

BANNED
Aug 17, 2009
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I think Grand Tours should be dead flat into a roaring headwind with the occasional freeway overpass puncuating the methodical dullness.
 
I think they should also try and have longer excursions into other countries also on mountains stages.The Tour can easily find some really good finishes in Switzerland, Austria and even Italy without going to many stages out of France. We have seldom seen more than half a stage or a part of a stage outside France in the Alpes and it would be refreshing to see them do something like start a stage in France and end it in another country, then the next stage all outside France and then a third stage that starts outside and finishes in France. The possibilities with something like that could be endless.
 
The thing is, there are more than enough great climbs in each country to populate more than one quality GT route. Therefore you don't need to keep reusing the same ones. Or if you do, shake up what you do with them.

Climbs like Alpe d'Huez and Lagos de Covadonga are now ingrained into the Tour/Vuelta fan's mind. They do them regularly. But we still dream of Mont Ventoux, which is a much rarer proposition. The Stelvio, as mentioned, has only been used 6 times in the Giro's history.

I understand the argument that a climb needs to be used regularly close to its inception in order to establish its reputation - indeed Angliru and Zoncolán are testament to this. But once the reputation is there, it can only be diminished by regular use. If there's a chance to win there every year or two, the value of the win there diminishes because it's open to more people.

Fedaia, as mentioned above, is a regularly used but highly regarded Giro pass. It has only been used as a finish once (2008); that made it seem quite special. It's one of my absolute favourite climbs. Tre Cime di Lavaredo is seldom used. Sure, it doesn't have the reputation of a Mortirolo, but it makes it seem valuable to win there.

Taking a climb out of the main event doesn't prevent its use of course, it can still be used elsewise - the Dauphiné using Alpe d'Huez this year, for example. Similarly, if the Vuelta went a few years without Lagos de Covadonga, then maybe the Vuelta a Asturias could use it instead of using the same climbs year on year (the Alto del Acebo is invariably the queen stage), and that could in turn give that race some extra credibility in terms of the field taking part.

Also, there are celebrated climbs going unused in the GTs, for a variety of reasons. Lagunas de Neila, the key climb of the Vuelta a Burgos, is a great example - always entertaining, an excellent climb, but no Vuelta. New climbs are being found regularly, so why do we have to rely on the same old ones?

The answer, of course, is that the GT organisers are trying to sell their GT. They want to sell the riders on it (and riders will want to get wins on these mythical mountains, and be the first on new mountains), and they want to sell the press and fans on it. For many fans, they may only know of the legendary climbs, and so it's easier to sell them on a Ventoux or Alpe d'Huez finish. But instead of Huez, why not use the less commonly used Les-Deux-Alpes once in a while?

You can shake things up without creating a farce like the '09 Tour route. The 2004 Giro attempted it; and that was probably a failure too. The stage over the Tonale and Gavia to Bormio 2000 would have been great if it had just been about 40-50km longer - get the legs more tired before they get there.

I like the decision of the Giro to jump across into Austria; but why the Großglockner and not the Rettenbachferner? That's only been used twice in total, both in the Deutschlandtour, and the lack of use could make it more valuable; the 'glockner is crossed every year in the Österreichrundfahrt. Perhaps the Vuelta could consider hopping across the border into Portugal once in a while, I'd love to see the Vuelta climb to Torre.

One of the problems with the Tour is that it tends to be formulaic in route, because the country's big mountains are in two specific areas and the way the race ends is seen as sacrosanct. But why should it be? The Vuelta always ends in Madrid, sure, but it has mountains overlooking it; it could finish with a mountain or a TT preceding the final procession. The Giro moves around suiting its needs. Why could the Tour not do the Champs-Elysées earlier on, or start there, and finish in Lyon, allowing for the mountains to run right to the end like in the Giro?

The thing is, if the racing is good the mountain doesn't matter. The racing on Pal (PAL!) this year in the Vuelta was as good as the racing in more storied Tour de France climbs. If the Tour is coming to a close finish and people need to attack then it won't matter if they're climbing to Courchevel or Arette-Saint-Martin instead of Huez or Tourmalet.

The main thing is, the Grand Tours need these mythical climbs, for the legends to be born and made. But they don't need all of them all the time, if they create routes that allow for either a) new mythical climbs to be created, eg Bola del Mundo or Zoncolán, or b) the racing to be remembered far beyond the race itself - and they don't need the mythical climbs for that. However, what these mythical climbs do is offer the race organisers an easy out. They give the race a feeling of grandeur without the organisers having to think too hard.
 
Skip Madness said:
This is especially true of Spain. There are dozens of climbs to rival the best the Giro and the Tour have to throw at the riders, which are sitting there having never been climbed for some reason. That might start to change next year with the inclusion of Fonte da Cova and/or Ancares, but I can't say I'm terribly optimistic.

That is true for the Giro too, but it's especially striking in the case of the Vuelta since the Giro features tons of hard climbs every year anyway.

Some of the big HC that have never been ridden in the Vuelta and are perfectly adapted for road bikes (big props again to the lads at altimetrias.net)


MTFs, just to choose one from each big mountain zone (South-East, Pyrenees, Asturias):

Collado Alguacil

cdo-alguacil.png


Coll de Pal (do not confuse with Andorra-Pal, climbed in this year's Vuelta and quite easier)

palcollde.PNG


Jito d'Escarandi

Caballar.gif
 
Mountain passes:

Ancares (via Pan do Zarco)

Ancares4.gif



Fonte da Cova (via Medua)

Trevinca1.gif



Pradell

pradell01.PNG



And my favourite, the hardest mountain pass in Spain and comparable to the Stelvio, Galibier or Fauniera...

Collado de las Sabinas

perfil-sabinas3.png




Many of those climbs are perfectly linkable to one another, for instance Pradell+Pal or Sabinas+Alguacil. I drool just at the thought of it...
 
therealtimshady said:
the mont ventoux is well underused and we seem to get the tourmalet every year

I think the problem with the Ventoux in terms of race planning is the very fact that it is a geophysical lacuna.

While we could hardly describe the Vaucluse as flat, there is nevertheless no comparable obstacle in the area, so it's very difficult to make it count towards the climax of a GT, as we saw in 2009.

What's more even in summer, the bald slopes of the Ventoux can be incredibly dangerous due to high winds, which always makes programming it in a mild risk.