How to Mask the CIR Test - 'Food Doping'!

[Argyle_Fan]

Hypothesized Masking Strategies for Testosterone Doping to Beat the Carbon Isotope Ratio (CIR) Test

Summary

You base your diet around foods known to have low C13/C12 ratios, missing out foods with high C13/C12 ratios (to match your diet to the low C13/C12 ratio of artificial Testosterone, which is generally made from soy). Thus the C13/C12 ratio of your endogenously produced reference chemicals will match that of the T (& E) you are taking, and you should pass the CIR test. (Alternatively, maybe you could source artificial T with a high C13/C12 ratio from an underground chemist, and maintain your current diet.) Examples of foodstuffs listed later - possible to have a balanced diet suitable for elite performance.

Is this practical, and is it worth the hassle? Is it of concern to WADA that it is (presumably?) simple to mask artificial T in the CIR test? If so, have they considered developing tests of Testosterone isomer ratios (appears that they do vary in artificial T c.f. natural T), which could not be circumvented in this way?

Background Info

WADA etc. use the Testoterone(T)/Epitestosterone(E) ratio as a screening test for possible doping. If T/E>4, then a CIR test is performed to find out if excess T is artificial/natural. I think that the CIR test must be positive for a positive doping violation to be given (but only needs to be done on one out of the A & B samples). The CIR test is not generally performed (?) unless T/E>4 as it is time-consuming & expensive.

The CIR test (see e.g. http://www.isolife.nl/example_authentication.php for a brief summary) is used to determine whether testosterone in an athlete’s urine is endogenous or artificial. One compares the C13/C12 ratio for testosterone with that of a wide variety of presumably endogenously produced steroids (e.g. cholesterol), many of which are produced at a wide range of metabolic rates from food ingested. If the ratios differ by more than 3%, then a ‘positive result’ for artificial testosterone is made.

The C13/C12 ratio varies between different foodstuffs, according to the method (there are 3) of photosynthesis/respiration of plants (or the plant foodstuff which ends up in an animal - the ratio is largely unchanged). The typical western diet is typically measurably richer in C13 than is soy-derived artificial testosterone, which is why the CIR test generally works.

But the typical western diet can be altered...

Potential ‘Food-Doping’ Strategy of Masking for the CIR test:

I think it might be possible to base one’s diet around :
e.g.: Rice, Barley, Soy, Yam, Wheat, Potatoes, Animals reared on above (or grass silage/hay), Freshwater Fish, eggs/meat from wheat/grass/insect-fed hens, which all have low C13/C12 ratios matching the C13/C12 ratio of typical soy-derived artificial testosterone. (These are all derived from ‘C3 plants’ - see later background info)
Missing out :
e.g.: Maize/Corn, Sugar Cane, Millet, Sorghum, Pineapples, Animals reared on above (or maize silage), Marine Fish, eggs/meat from corn-fed hens, which all have high C13/C12 ratios compared to typical soy-derived artificial testosterone. (These are all derived from ‘C4 & CAM plants’ - see later background info)

Thus Masking a positive CIR test, since the C13/C12 ratio of all your endogenously produced ‘reference steroids‘ would presumably match that of the artificial T (being made from ingested foodstuffs (phyto-sterols) with a similar C13/C12 ratio).

Simplest diet to accomplish this would probably be a largely vegan diet, with freshwater fish (since it’s hard to track what feedstuffs animals have been reared on), and I think this would be a reasonable diet for an elite athlete. One issue though is that there is still a fairly wide band of variation within each of the two groupings (i.e. high/low C13/C12), so it might need a bit (lot?) of extra calculation. This potential calculation/complexity would be the main issue I could envisage. Albeit that you do have 3% leeway (and Floyd for example was only out by 4%).

This would be easy to accomplish (???) with an ‘old-school soigneur’ who fancies a career change to ‘personal chef/dietician’, possibly to ‘treat rather vague allergic reactions/gastrointestinal problems during races‘, deal with ‘ethical objections re. farm-animal conditions’ or various plausible excuses of the sort.

Modifying the diet consistently as above would presumably allow one to take T as and when it is needed e.g. Mountain-stages/Time-trials of GTs, World-champs, Olympics etc. for the short-term mental/physical boost, avoiding the problem that consistent ingestion of small/micro-doses of exogenous T would diminish the body’s ability to produce it naturally, and avoiding excess muscle-mass? Would this be picked up in the Bio-Passport - not sure if they measure T? Presumably one would also take E of the required isotope ratio for additional masking re. the T/E test.

Questions:

* Can the CIR test be beaten (as suggested above) using a diet based heavily on C13-poor foodstuffs (I.e. ‘C3 plants‘, freshwater fish, and animals fed on ‘C3 plants‘), avoiding C13-rich foods, whilst using the typical soy-derived exogenous C13-poor T & E for doping?

* Are there underground labs which make T & E from ‘C4-plant‘-material derived phyto-sterols, and could these be used by dopers to match the typical ‘C4‘-rich (i.e. C13-rich) western diet?

* Is this ‘Food-Doping’ masking strategy something which WADA has considered? (I know they’ve studied the effects of diet on C13/C12 ratios in the context of ‘False-Positives’, see e.g.:
http://www.wada-ama.org/rtecontent/document/b5_2003.pdf )

* Is the ‘Pesco-Vegan’ diet suggested above suitable for elite athletic performance? Dave Zabriskie is a cyclist who eats a vegan diet, with a little salmon a couple of times a week - so it is obviously possible to perform well on it.

* Should the CIR test be routinely performed, irrespective of whether T/E>4, and interpreted by WADA as a positive if CIR indicates exogenous T? (Possibly limited to target-testing of suspect athletes due to time/cost?)

* I think artificial testosterone turns out additionally to have different ‘isomer’ ratios to endogenously produced T. Could WADA develop a test for isomers & isomer ratios in addition to the CIR test involving Carbon isotopes (see e.g. http://rant-your-head-off.com/WordPress/?p=53 )? Or is it better just to track T on the Bio-Passport, correlating fluctuations with race-schdules, possibly?

- Argyle_Fan

 

[Argyle_Fan]

[Hypothesized Masking Strategies for Testosterone Doping to Beat the CIR Test - Part 2]

More Extensive Background Info, with Links etc.:

Excellent overview of CIR testing in the context of the Floyd Landis case:
http://pipeline.corante.com/archives/2006/08/01/testosterone_carbon_isotopes_and_floyd_landis.php
Some of the (extensive list of) comments are very interesting, but you have to wade through a fair amount of spam and people who don’t understand the science. In particular it is interesting that the American diet is thought to be typically higher in C4-plant-derived food compared to the European diet, e.g. due to the more extensive use of corn-syrup and maize products (eat European if you want to help mask your artificial T!)

Appears that there are 3 food groups, with differing C13/C12 ratios:
Seems that it depends on the type of photosynthesis occurring in the plants - 3 types.
‘C3’ foods : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C3_carbon_fixation )
ratio of carbon-13 and carbon-12 isotopes is -33 to -24 ‰
Rice, Barley, Soy, Yam, Wheat, Potatoes, Animals reared on above (or grass silage/hay), Freshwater Fish, eggs/meat from wheat/grass/insect-fed hens
‘CAM foods :’ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crassulacean_Acid_Metabolism )
ratio of carbon-13 and carbon-12 isotopes is -20 to -10 ‰
e.g. pineapple, but not many foods.
‘C4 foods’ : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C4_photosynthesis
ratio of carbon-13 and carbon-12 isotopes is -16 to -10 ‰
Maize/Corn, Sugar Cane, Millet, Sorghum, Animals reared on above (or maize silage), Marine Fish, eggs/meat from corn-fed hens

C13/C12 isotope ratios listed above taken from:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isotopic_signature

Implications for WADA Testing
Could WADA develop a test for testosterone isomers in addition to that for Carbon isotopes in T (see e.g. http://rant-your-head-off.com/WordPress/?p=53 ) Is it worth it - e.g. we haven't heard of any examples of athletes/doctors doing this, and it may not be possible and/or practical anyway?
In comments #1 & #2 on the above-linked post, there is discussion of enantiomers (mirror-reflections) & disasteriomers (not a mirror image, but one set of bonds oriented differently) which could be used to study this since they vary between artificial/natural T. (You would look at the refraction ('bending') of polarised light passed through the sample, I think, and would probably require a fairly pure extraction of the T from the urine which I assume is possible since they need a pure sample for CIR testing anyway.)

Comments/questions on practicality as a doping method
As far as I am aware, this has not been talked about by the Ferraris & Fuentes of this world, at least not to my knowledge. I am a tiny bit surprised since it seems right up their street but maybe they‘ve simply been rather more busy with the more effective method of O2-Vector doping… Is it really worth all the above hassle with food when T isn't the 1st choice in the doping pharmacopoeia, and CIR won't be performed unless T/E>4 anyway? Or possibly it turns out that the above technique would not in fact be simple and/or effective for masking artificial testosterone (in particular, I do not particularly understand all the numbers involved - in particular, there may be a great deal of complexity involved in getting the 'food-doping' correct. It would cost quite a lot to buy a Mass-Spectrometer and hire a specialist to analyze one's daily food intake... Although I suspect that would be unneccessary due to the 3% threshold for declaring a CIR test positive). Any opinions?

 

[DirtyWorks]

Simplest diet to accomplish this would probably be a largely vegan diet, with freshwater fish

Except your source of freshwater fish are very likely farmed. The rest of the diet is very, very, very likely coming off a large-scale operation in the U.S. So most of the things you want aren't there.

The way T works now appears to be at low dosage over many weeks providing cumulative benefits. The patches and whatever else is straighforward delivery versus the rather remote delivery method you propose.

 

[More Strides than Rides]

You're telling elite athletes to avoid corn products and sugar? I think you're overgeneralizing the typicality (is that a word?) of the 'typical western' diet; elite athletes generally don't eat the 'typical' western diet, except for Chris Horner.

 

[Willy_Voet]

You are missing some math. If your T/E is higher than 4 (or if it should be higher than 4, but you've masked it with with E), then you will not offset that by fiddling with what food you eat. Unless you eat C13 enriched testosterone or cholesterol.

However, what will surely work is if you could set up a farm growing corn, wheat, cows and chickens in a 13C CO2 enriched environment (careful with the cows and chickens). Just like an oxygen tent, but over the whole farm. Then you could eat 13C enriched beef, chicken, grits and Wheaties. Be sure to suck all the fatty goodness (I forgot pigs...lots of 13C from bacon grease should do the trick, too).

You might want to talk to the North Koreans or Iranians about using their centrifuges. You could enrich the 13C containing testosterone that way as well. Cholesterol deposits in obese patients could be farmed for this purpose as well. For that matter, you could also use their balls to harvest testosterone for the centrifuge operation as well.

Edit: Speaking of tents...Biosphere 2 was a failure, but would certainly work for a 13C enriched house/farm:

 

[Argyle_Fan]

You are missing some math. If your T/E is higher than 4 (or if it should be higher than 4, but you've masked it with with E), then you will not offset that by fiddling with what food you eat. Unless you eat C13 enriched testosterone or cholesterol.

This is about masking the CIR test rather than the T/E screening test. You would presumably also take E (of the required isotope ratio) as well as T to mask the latter.

I'm not sure where you'd get C13 enriched T for your doping needs (you wouldn't need supplementary Cholesterol, I wouldn't think...).

Anyone know if there are underground chemists making C13-rich T? If T (& E) sysnthesis from phytosterols is not too difficult, then I wouldn't think it'd be a problem to manufacture C13-rich T & E. If the sysnthesis process is not hard, then I really don't understand why this isn't being done, particularly considering the sophistication of doping protocols in so many other ways. (Or maybe we just don't know about it yet, since it wouldn't be causing any positive tests... ). But it isn't even being discussed by any of the cyclists who've come clean, so I guess it isn't being used for whatever reason.

I'm not sure that I take the rest of your post particularly seriously . And I'm not sure that you intended me to ("Last edited by Willy_Voet; Today at 03:36. Reason: Reductio ad absurdum"). And I'm not too sure I appreciated being called a troll etc. etc. in your reply to me in the other thread . My enquiries have all been completely genuine.

But your replies have certainly all been very amusing! We all must learn to laugh at ourselves ...

- Argyle_Fan

 

[Willy_Voet]

I understand we are talking about CIR. The CIR looks at the ratio of carbon isotopes in testosterone. I brought T/E ratio in to give some benchmark as to how much the CIR ratio matters...i.e. what is the magnitude of the effect you are trying to offset with a 13C-rich diet.

1) Assume you take enough exogenous T to get your T/E up to 4:1. (Landis busted at 11:1 so a 4:1 is very safe)
2) Normal ratios are 1:1, maybe as high as 2:1. Let's assume 1:1, since I was safe above with 4:1.
3) 75% of the T is exogenous, 25% endogenous.
4) You are messing with the small side of that ratio by trying to 13C enrich your diet. Whatever you do, will have to be very effective b/c you have a smaller number of molecules to work with.
5) Any higher dosage (11:1 like Landis), and you really have no hope of offsetting the CIR test unless you are injecting 13C-enriched testosterone.

 

[Argyle_Fan]

I understand we are talking about CIR. The CIR looks at the ratio of carbon isotopes in testosterone. I brought T/E ratio in to give some benchmark as to how much the CIR ratio matters...i.e. what is the magnitude of the effect you are trying to offset with a 13C-rich diet.

1) Assume you take enough exogenous T to get your T/E up to 4:1. (Landis busted at 11:1 so a 4:1 is very safe)
2) Normal ratios are 1:1, maybe as high as 2:1. Let's assume 1:1, since I was safe above with 4:1.
3) 75% of the T is exogenous, 25% endogenous.
4) You are messing with the small side of that ratio by trying to 13C enrich your diet. Whatever you do, will have to be very effective b/c you have a smaller number of molecules to work with.
5) Any higher dosage (11:1 like Landis), and you really have no hope of offsetting the CIR test unless you are injecting 13C-enriched testosterone.

Oh, I see what you meant now.

Your points were all very interesting.

The idea is that you only eat C13-poor food (which matches the C13-poor artificial T & E, and do not eat C13-rich food). If you match the C13-poor artificial T & E, then you should not get a positive CIR test, even if T/E=11 (or if both T and E are increased by x11). Although of course, the more T & E you administer exogenously, the more you risk skewing the CIR test.

It is interesting that Floyd Landis had a CIR test result which was only 4% off baseline. The threshold for a doping positive is currently 3%, so he wasn't that far out, even with T/E=11. Suggesting that you do have a surprising amount of leeway.

Although I can't for the life of me think why he didn't also take E to mask the extra T - it's a pretty standard & simple technique. I very much doubt he made any attempt to mask his C12/C13 ratios, since that would be much more involved & sophisticated than simply taking extra E to mask his T/E (and it seems that the method I'm talking about is not particularly prevalant, or indeed may currently be non-existant in the peloton anyway).

- Argyle_Fan

 

[Willy_Voet]

Oh, I see what you meant now.

Your points were all very interesting.

The idea is that you only eat C13-poor food (which matches the C13-poor artificial T & E, and do not eat C13-rich food. If you match the C13-poor artificial T & E, then you should not get a positive CIR test.

- Argyle_Fan

You are just setting yourself up for a false positive by eating 13C-poor food. By matching the ratio of exogenous T...you will have the ratio of exogenous T, which is what the test tests for.

 

[Argyle_Fan]

You are just setting yourself up for a false positive by eating 13C-poor food. By matching the ratio of exogenous T...you will have the ratio of exogenous T, which is what the test tests for.

The test tests for:
C13/C12 of testosterone divided by C13/C12 of reference (endogenous) steroids. I.e. it is a ratio of a ratio, which is pretty confusing...

It doesn't test for C13/C12 of your T compared to that of exogenous T. Exogenous T is simply made from Soya - and a false positive for athletes who simply eat a lot of Soya should not occur (nothing wrong with eating lots of soya...) - which is why the testing protocol is the above ratio of ratios - to factor out the effect of differences in diet.

WADA have studied the effect of diet on C13/C12 ratios in the context of ‘False-Positives’, see e.g.:
http://www.wada-ama.org/rtecontent/document/b5_2003.pdf . WADA's main concern was that dietary C13/C12 could fluctuate over a short time-period (e.g. transcontinental travel - on average the American diet is higher in C13 (more maize, corn syrup & sugar cane) than the European diet (more wheat & sugar beet)). Whilst C13/C12 of exogenous T responds to diet on a different timescale to that of many of the endogenously-producd reference chemicals.

Which obviously explains why so many cyclists train in Girona (a sarcastic reference to the absurd discussion in the 'JV talks, kind of' thread)...

- Argyle_Fan

 

[Willy_Voet]

The test tests for:
C13/C12 of testosterone divided by C13/C12 of reference (endogenous) steroids. I.e. it is a ratio of a ratio, which is pretty confusing...
- Argyle_Fan

Interesting. I will leave it then to the doping experts, but I'm not sure why they wouldn't rely directly on the ratio in T (or, rather, its metabolites) alone.

 

[Argyle_Fan]

Interesting. I will leave it then to the doping experts, but I'm not sure why they wouldn't rely directly on the ratio in T (or, rather, its metabolites) alone.

Hi Willy,

To put it a little more clearly than I managed to do earlier - to factor out the variation of C13/C12 due to natural variations in diet. Compare the ratio for T in the urine to that of related chemicals known to have been endogenously produced from the diet in question. The ratios should be very similar if there has been no taking of exogenous T.

However, another thought that your posts have prompted:
Whilst a C13/C12 ratio for T matching that of exogenous T cannot (and should not) be interpreted as a doping positive in itself, I do think that such a finding would be a very good reason to add an athlete to the 'Target-Testing' list (probably all that you could do at the moment would be to look more carefully at T levels over time in the Bio-Passport, and take more frequent Bio-Passport readings). Quite possible that WADA etc. are already doing this if it occurs, but I guess they wouldn't be making it public.

Ideally, WADA should develop an isomer-ratio test for T (see 1st post for details & link)? Perhaps someone should say something to WADA if it's warrented (but I do not consider myself particularly qualified to do so), but I guess they'll already have thought it all through aplenty, and presumably decided it's not a priority since it doesn't appear to be particularly prevalent in sports-doping at the moment, for whatever reason.

- Argyle_Fan

 

[Argyle_Fan]

Except your source of freshwater fish are very likely farmed.

Not too sure, but I imagine that if farmed fish are fed on a diet based on freshwater foodstuffs, then the C13/C12 ratio would be the same as that for Freshwater fish in a natural environment.

The way T works now appears to be at low dosage over many weeks providing cumulative benefits. The patches and whatever else is straighforward delivery versus the rather remote delivery method you propose.

Yes - you can still microdose just as well with the 'Food-Masking' method. Although 'Food-Masking' might give you more options to use methods more powerful/effective than microdosing, as long as you can keep within the passport parameters.

I wasn't proposing a remote delivery method for the Testosterone (& Epitestosterone) themselves - you would just dope as usual. Instead, what you're doing is tweaking your diet so that the C13/C12 ratios of your diet (from which are produced the 'Reference Chemicals' which end up in your urine - the baseline for endogenous C13/C12) to match that of the T (partially exogenous) in your urine. And if the two are similar - you won't test positive in the CIR/Exogenous Testosterone test.

It's a masking strategy rather than a doping strategy.

- Argyle_Fan

 

[BroDeal]

Not too sure, but I imagine that if farmed fish are fed on a diet based on freshwater foodstuffs, then the C13/C12 ratio would be the same as that for Freshwater fish in a natural environment.

I imagine farmed fish are fed a diet based on what is cheapest to feed them. That probably means something based on corn plus cheap protein.

 

[Willy_Voet]

Hi Willy,

To put it a little more clearly than I managed to do earlier - to factor out the variation of C13/C12 due to natural variations in diet. Compare the ratio for T in the urine to that of related chemicals known to have been endogenously produced from the diet in question. The ratios should be very similar if there has been no taking of exogenous T.

However, another thought that your posts have prompted:
Whilst a C13/C12 ratio for T matching that of exogenous T cannot (and should not) be interpreted as a doping positive in itself, I do think that such a finding would be a very good reason to add an athlete to the 'Target-Testing' list (probably all that you could do at the moment would be to look more carefully at T levels over time in the Bio-Passport, and take more frequent Bio-Passport readings). Quite possible that WADA etc. are already doing this if it occurs, but I guess they wouldn't be making it public.

Ideally, WADA should develop an isomer-ratio test for T (see 1st post for details & link)? Perhaps someone should say something to WADA if it's warrented (but I do not consider myself particularly qualified to do so), but I guess they'll already have thought it all through plenty, and presumably decided it's not a priority since it doesn't appear to be particularly prevalent in sports-doping at the moment, for whatever reason.

- Argyle_Fan

But point #1 in your post brings back my point about T/E ratio and absolute magnitude of exogenous T. If you have boosted yourself above 4:1 (before any exogenous E to cover up the ratio), there is a threshold of the 13C/12C ratio that you will go above or below (depending which is numerator). You (or rather, they) shouldn't need an internal standard (from the athlete's body).

To point #2, the isomer test would be slightly more difficult, but not impossible. I am not up to speed on synthetic testosterone synthesis, but there are 6 asymmetric centers in the molecule so 2^6 = 64 possible stereoisomers. (to be clear, what you would be looking for are stereoisomers, not simply isomers, which could include entirely different compounds that are not testosterone). Not all stereoisomers likely result from synthetic synthesis (that is not redundant!).

I think it is a matter of cost that limits what the labs can do. Differentiation of mirror images (enantiomers) is the most difficult...they have almost all the same chemical properties and could not be distinguished by conventional analytical methods (gas chromatography and mass spec (GCMS) in this case). Diastereomers is slightly easier, but by no means easy. The lab doing the analysis would in all likelihood have to go to a liquid purification process (LCMS) with a chiral column, which as I understand it, is more time consuming, more sovlents/reagents and more costly.

There are 2 other possibilities:

1) Testosterone receptors don't recognize the non-natural stereoisomers, but, the enzymes that degrade testosterone do. (T is not directly measured in the T/E test or CIR test as I understand it). There's a chance the the metabolite of the different stereoisomers turns out to be the same (i.e. no isomers). Any isomer test is then a moot point.

2) The testosterone stereoisomers are not metabolized in anyway and pass through urine. They can then be directly tested for (and should be in relatively high concentration). This would be incredibly easy to test for (back to GCMS).

 

[Argyle_Fan]

I imagine farmed fish are fed a diet based on what is cheapest to feed them. That probably means something based on corn plus cheap protein.

Yes, absolutely! Corn (and most cheap protein) would be C13-rich - therefore unsuitable for your new 'healthy diet'. You'd need an expert & hard-working ('Old-Skool') soingneur/chef/nutritionist you pay to spend lots of time sourcing your food, and researching fish-farms etc. I imagine there are 'Organic Fish Farms' that produce farmed fish using suitable feedstuffs. Or more likely organic fisheries which source freshwater fish from rivers/lakes etc. Or you can always take up fishing as a hobby, if you like...

It would take quite a bit of research, but I'm sure it's possible to find suitably C13-poor animal protein. It would be worth the extra hassle/work to add animal protein to your otherwise largely Vegan diet. Or there's always Free-Range Chicken/Eggs fed on Grass/Insects (or Grass-fed Cows etc.), which I know are available, if you look (try organic). It really isn't that much of an extra step compared to what dopers have been known to have gone through in the past.

The 'specialist food-sourcing' and the 'soigneur' outlined above might appear a little pricey, but is surely nothing compared to employing Ferrari. And why not set up a 'doping-ring' with your mates and share the cost of the 'soigneur'? Cheap at the price!

-Argyle_Fan

 

[Argyle_Fan]

But point #1 in your post brings back my point about T/E ratio and absolute magnitude of exogenous T. If you have boosted yourself above 4:1 (before any exogenous E to cover up the ratio), there is a threshold of the 13C/12C ratio that you will go above or below (depending which is numerator). You (or rather, they) shouldn't need an internal standard (from the athlete's body).

Turns out that the WADA-accredited test does in fact compare the C13/C12 ratio to that of your 'reference (endogenous) standard'. Again, the reason for this is specifically to factor out natural (and presumably innocent) variations in your diet, which is what determines C13/C12 for your reference chemicals. This should tally with C13/C12 for Testosterone, if your T is indeed produced naturally from that same diet. Your natural diet should not lead to the possibility of a False-Positive, and this is how WADA et. al. avoid that - factor it out (via the 'ratio of a ratio').

Again, it's not C13/C12 for your Testosterone (c.f. artificial T) that's the relevant number. It's how this compares to (or agrees with) C13/C12 from all the compounds your body is known to have produced naturally from your diet.

To point #2, the isomer test would be slightly more difficult, but not impossible. I am not up to speed on synthetic testosterone synthesis, but there are 6 asymmetric centers in the molecule so 2^6 = 64 possible stereoisomers. (to be clear, what you would be looking for are stereoisomers, not simply isomers, which could include entirely different compounds that are not testosterone). Not all stereoisomers likely result from synthetic synthesis (that is not redundant!).

I think it is a matter of cost that limits what the labs can do. Differentiation of mirror images (enantiomers) is the most difficult...they have almost all the same chemical properties and could not be distinguished by conventional analytical methods (gas chromatography and mass spec (GCMS) in this case). Diastereomers is slightly easier, but by no means easy. The lab doing the analysis would in all likelihood have to go to a liquid purification process (LCMS) with a chiral column, which as I understand it, is more time consuming, more sovlents/reagents and more costly.

Nor am I up to speed with Testosterone isomers/stereoisomers/diasteriomers etc... I'm a phycisist/astronomer/teacher rather than a chemist.

As for the costs involved - I really don't have a clue. If it's expensive, I guess you'd only do it in 'Target Testing', or with results that have been flagged with T/E>4 or a low C13/C12 ratio for T (& the reference steroids). No idea how much time/money it would take to develop the test in the 1st place.

"Not all stereoisomers likely result from synthetic synthesis (that is not redundant!)"
Can you elaborate as to why this is not redundant? Don't follow...

There are 2 other possibilities:

1) Testosterone receptors don't recognize the non-natural stereoisomers, but, the enzymes that degrade testosterone do. (T is not directly measured in the T/E test or CIR test as I understand it). There's a chance the the metabolite of the different stereoisomers turns out to be the same (i.e. no isomers). Any isomer test is then a moot point.

2) The testosterone stereoisomers are not metabolized in anyway and pass through urine. They can then be directly tested for (and should be in relatively high concentration). This would be incredibly easy to test for (back to GCMS).

Here, I don't have much of a clue. I guess that as far as non-natural stereoisomers, whilst they might not be relevant in terms of performance enhancement, they could still be useful as a marker for exogenous T.

What is GCMS (or did you mean LCMS?)??

- Argyle_Fan

 

[zigmeister]

Do you have any studies to show that food containing these hormones can directly affect the level in the blood?

Landis admitted to taking female hormones (not sure what exactly? Estrogen to raise and balance the level compared to T?)

Otherwise, I don't know of any study to show/prove that any food, when your body takes that after processing it, translates directly into that particular hormone, or raises the level of that hormone.

It is suspected that Soy will raise estrogen, but nobody has proven that/shown that in any study. But men are encouraged to avoid it, in case it does cause a negative feedback to the HPTA.

Furthermore, since cholesterol is the mother hormone, your body decides what to make naturally. Only if the food is proven to raise any hormone level in the blood, I doubt it will have any affect.

Thus, it is why I said give me any study that shows any food directly raises/lowers Test/E2 in the male body outside of the normal hormonal pathways.

That is why exogenous Test and other drugs, like estrogen, would be taken since they are the bioidentical equivalent to what you body would produce naturally through the hormonal pathways. Hence, they will directly influence blood levels in the body of the hormones. That is why they did the isotope test with Landis, to show the different weighting compared to natural isotope weights.

Otherwise, it is a stretch to theorize otherwise. And it is just that a wild theory with no backing. If it were that simple, don't you think guys would be chowing down massive amounts of particular foods to give them an advantage? Of course they would.

 

[Argyle_Fan]

Do you have any studies to show that food containing these hormones can directly affect the level in the blood?

Sorry - didn't bookmark the links. The issue is not that your ingested food affects hormone levels in your blood - AFAIK, that isn't particularly relevant, here at least. Instead, you're matching the C13/C12 of your food to that of any exogenous T you're taking. I have read in quite a number of places that the C13/C12 ratios of various steroids in your body match that of your diet (sorry - forgot links. Will find again if useful).

Landis admitted to taking female hormones (not sure what exactly? Estrogen to raise and balance the level compared to T?)

Not sure? hCG is the most common (I think), but it could easily have been oestrogen for the reasons you mentioned.

Otherwise, I don't know of any study to show/prove that any food, when your body takes that after processing it, translates directly into that particular hormone, or raises the level of that hormone.

It is suspected that Soy will raise estrogen, but nobody has proven that/shown that in any study. But men are encouraged to avoid it, in case it does cause a negative feedback to the HPTA.

Furthermore, since cholesterol is the mother hormone, your body decides what to make naturally. Only if the food is proven to raise any hormone level in the blood, I doubt it will have any affect.

Thus, it is why I said give me any study that shows any food directly raises/lowers Test/E2 in the male body outside of the normal hormonal pathways.

That's not the relevant issue. You're not eating certain foods to manipulate your naturally occurring hormone levels, at least in this particular instance. Instead, you're manipulating your food to mask the incongruous C13/C12 ratios (in T & E) which your exogenous supplementation of T & E leads to (i.e. so that C13/C12 for the naturally-produced reference hormones made from your food match those of the exogenous T & E).

I'm sure there are potentially interesting changes in hormone levels which a change in diet could induce, but that is not the subject of these posts. Here, you're just masking your exogenous ingestion of hormones such as T & E.

That is why exogenous Test and other drugs, like estrogen, would be taken since they are the bioidentical equivalent to what you body would produce naturally through the hormonal pathways. Hence, they will directly influence blood levels in the body of the hormones. That is why they did the isotope test with Landis, to show the different weighting compared to natural isotope weights.

Can't say much on this.

Otherwise, it is a stretch to theorize otherwise. And it is just that a wild theory with no backing. If it were that simple, don't you think guys would be chowing down massive amounts of particular foods to give them an advantage? Of course they would.

I don't think it's a 'wild theory with no backing' - see my OP (& 2nd post) for back-up, with extensive links.

But since it appears to be so simple (please carry on arguing!), then I honestly don't know why guys are not chowing down certain foods (this would be to mask their exogenous T-doping, rather than giving them any particular advatage in itself).

My guess would be that it's simply not a major priority to mask the CIR test at the moment, since CIR is currently rarely performed unless T/E>4, which is fairly easy to mask via far simpler means, e.g. E. And there are also a few logistical issues (i.e. completely changing your diet & hiring that 'soigneur-chef' along with your doper-mates...) to overcome, although seems that they might be fairly easily & cheaply surmountable. I think it's just that masking the CIR test is not much of a prioririty at the mo.

- Argyle_Fan

 

[blackcat]

wonder how many hits this page had got

 

[Maxiton]

Re:

wonder how many hits this page had got

How many riders in the World Tour?

 

[blackcat]

Re: Re:

wonder how many hits this page had got

How many riders in the World Tour?

alot over the last 6 years