I want the facts without destroying the sport

[PosterBill]

Anybody else feel like this?

To me it would be horrible for cycling to go back and void 7 years of a tour era. If you want retributive justice then you could theoretically void almost every tour win dating back to the 1950s.

If you go back and take away lance's tours then you might as well go way back and start with all the guys in the 60s/70s/80s that were getting all hyped up on stimulants. The cannibal is still alive, why not ask him some questions?

Yet I do have some anger in the way lance flaunted his era. He tried to ruin so many people...so let's have the facts, the testimony etc...I have a feeling it will be clear to all after this investigation without having to drag the sport through hell

 

[cleanmarine]

Lance had plenty of opportunity to give facts. Right up until last month when the USADA gave him last and final opportunity to sit down. 10 of the 11 riders called did sit down and talk. One did not.

Take them all away. Take every last tour title as warning. Show the sporting world some credibility. Take away any talking point for Lance. Crush him.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Anybody else feel like this?

To me it would be horrible for cycling to go back and void 7 years of a tour era. If you want retributive justice then you could theoretically void almost every tour win dating back to the 1950s.

If you go back and take away lance's tours then you might as well go way back and start with all the guys in the 60s/70s/80s that were getting all hyped up on stimulants. The cannibal is still alive, why not ask him some questions?

Yet I do have some anger in the way lance flaunted his era. He tried to ruin so many people...so let's have the facts, the testimony etc...I have a feeling it will be clear to all after this investigation without having to drag the sport through hell

"Without destroying the sport" ??

I have heard that a lot lately, and it is a bogus claim.
The sport will always continue - but it has massive credibility problems. Ask fans of other sports how they view cycling and it will usually be that it is a drug fueled sport.

The reason cycling has this credibility issue is because it has ignored history and continued on in the same vein (pun intended).
You want what's best for cycling as a sport? Then you do what should have been done after Festina, or after Puerto, or after Rasmussen, or after Landis......
Proper independent controls, and no favorite riders for the UCI to fawn over.

 

[cleanmarine]

What is left to destroy? These chumps did a fine job on their own. It is left to us to "save" it.

 

[Waterloo Sunrise]

Americans unable to disaggregate cycling from Lance - on both sides of the argument.

Yawn.

 

[DirtyWorks]

Anybody else feel like this?

To me it would be horrible for cycling to go back and void 7 years of a tour era.

Not really. If you want an anti-doping bomb to go off, then demand samples 3-8 years old be retested without the UCI in the middle. That will put an asterisk next to all grand tours since EPO was introduced.

-Get an honest recounting of the era. Put an asterisk next to most results post-EPO. The people who know the particulars will get old and most of it will be remembered as "a bad EPO era."
-bring some transparency into anti-doping. There is none as long as the UCI is in the middle of it all.
-bring more transparency into the UCI and most importantly the IOC's anti-doping process.

What we have now is a system where riders must dope if they want to reach most of the highest goals of the sport. Transparency and some honesty about the era, including now, would only improve the sport.

+1 to Waterloo Sunrise's comment.

 

[andy1234]

Americans unable to disaggregate cycling from Lance - on both sides of the argument.

Yawn.

Good post.

Armstrong is only "cycling" to Americans.

 

[cleanmarine]

That is the point get this false idol out of cycling for good. Squash him.

 

[PosterBill]

I don't think this is an "american only" perspective. You're talking about voiding almost an entire decade of the most recent sporting history which would reverberate for many years to come. I would question the rationale that we must blow it up before we can fix it. There does not appear to be any good solution on the table but I would rather use the least damaging weapon that I could.

It's a slippery slope once you start going back in the past. Why stop at Armstrong? Absolutely no reason why we can't keep going further back.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

I don't think this is an "american only" perspective. You're talking about voiding almost an entire decade of the most recent sporting history which would reverberate for many years to come. I would question the rationale that we must blow it up before we can fix it. There does not appear to be any good solution on the table but I would rather use the least damaging weapon that I could.

It's a slippery slope once you start going back in the past. Why stop at Armstrong? Absolutely no reason why we can't keep going further back.

Why stop at Armstrong? You do realize that Ulrich was recentley found guilty - where was your opinion then?

Yes, void a decade - if that what is decided. Getting rid of Armstrongs results does not get rid of cycling.

 

[DirtyWorks]

...You're talking about voiding almost an entire decade of the most recent sporting history which would reverberate for many years to come.

No it wouldn't. People forget and forget quickly. Scandal is temporary. Also remember, cycling is a TINY sport compared to various football games or even Formula 1.

I would question the rationale that we must blow it up before we can fix it. There does not appear to be any good solution on the table but I would rather use the least damaging weapon that I could.

This was the common wisdom after Festina scandal broke and here we are for perhaps the third/fourth time.

It's a slippery slope once you start going back in the past. Why stop at Armstrong? Absolutely no reason why we can't keep going further back.

Not at all. There's no biological data to go back to beyond a certain point in time. You want a bomb to drop, back test 2003-2008 samples with current test protocols. CAS will have a decade of appeals to process.

 

[happychappy]

The cannibal is still alive, why not ask him some questions?

Ask him no questions and he'll tell you no lies.

 

[Race Radio]

Ignoring the issue is what got the sport in this mess

Busting some age group Triathlete will to little. Everyone in the sport knows he doped, it will not destroy anything but the groupies who never cared about the sport anyways

 

[ElChingon]

No, let the proceedings commence.

 

[Polish]

Ignoring the issue is what got the sport in this mess

Busting some age group Triathlete will to little. Everyone in the sport knows he doped, it will not destroy anything but the groupies who never cared about the sport anyways

Are you saying the USADA busting age group triathletes is not important? It IS important RR. At least important in the sense that it is in the USADA's job description.

But Witch Hunting after Lance is NOT part of their Job Description.
How long will the Amgen Tour of California last now?

"It is Lance's fault the ToC failed"
So blind, so clueless, sigh.

Same Sigh, Different Day.
Same Sad, Different Day.
SSDD SSDD SSDD.
waaa.

 

[screaming fist]

Anti-doping work is not destroying the sport, it's saving it. It is saving the sport by trying to establish a fair basis on whicht the athletes can perform against each other according to their abilities, training etc.

And it's saving the sport by protecting the riders. By protecting young riders from situations where they might be talked into or forced to take a drug which short and long time effects they don't know. By protecting them from the trainers, DS's, medics and senior riders that tell them "either you take that shot or you don't ride tomorrow". Which means, you take the dope or you'll lose your career.

 

[screaming fist]

And another thing: everyone is talking about the Armstrong/Bruyneel/USPS-affaire. But in Italy there's a bomb ticking that has ninety names waiting to burst out.

 

[Race Radio]

And another thing: everyone is talking about the Armstrong/Bruyneel/USPS-affaire. But in Italy there's a bomb ticking that has ninety names waiting to burst out.

This.......remember this

 

[taiwan]

Excuse me if being naive.

Lance /= the sport.

Or else what are we doing on a cycling forum, when the guy's already retired from cycling?

Adding that if the sport needs the dollars of casual American fans to survive, once Lance is confirmed as 'dirty' they can turn their attention to Vaughters' vocally 'clean' team. Although I'd expect Lance fans' money just to go on Lance merchandise etc, rather than to the sport of cycling. This bad for Lance, bad for the sport cry smacks of desperation.

 

[on3m@n@rmy]

The cannibal is still alive, why not ask him some questions?

Well, actually he has been asked and offered this, that doping now (or recently if we want to claim it is now clean) is different from the way it used to be. He says doping now is intended to improve performance, whereas doping in his days was more to numb the pain and suffering than it was performance enhancing. Although one would think the one would tend to lead to the other. There's a thread in this forum somewhere that included discussion about this.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Lance /= the sport.

Or else what are we doing on a cycling forum, when the guy's already retired from cycling?

Adding that if the sport needs the dollars of casual American fans to survive, once Lance is confirmed as 'dirty' they can turn their attention to Vaughters' vocally 'clean' team. Although I'd expect Lance fans' money just to go on Lance merchandise etc, rather than to the sport of cycling. This bad for Lance, bad for the sport cry smacks of desperation.

Yes, it's a cycling forum not the lance forum.
The reason why we are taking about a retired rider on a cycling forum is because his doping happened throughout his cycling career.

 

[SirLes]

Well, actually he has been asked and offered this, that doping now (or recently if we want to claim it is now clean) is different from the way it used to be. He says doping now is intended to improve performance, whereas doping in his days was more to numb the pain and suffering than it was performance enhancing. Although one would think the one would tend to lead to the other. There's a thread in this forum somewhere that included discussion about this.

problem is they're both against the rules

The current issue in America is based on witness testimony rather than adverse analytical findings. There is no reason the same method could not be used to go after cyclists from much furthe back so why not use it?

Why not expose professional cycling for what it is, was, and always has been?

 

[SirLes]

The important lessons to learn from all this, if you are young aspiring cyclist, is

1) Dope
2) Make friends with those in high places
3) Don't annoy ex-team mates.

If you follow these simple steps you can have a long, successful and lucrative career.

Lance just forgot step three.

I find it difficult to believe this recent case has much to do with either clean sport or cycling but rather is a case of a load of people that Lance has p@ssed off/done the dirty on etc over the years looking for payback.

Good news is that now these cheating Yanks have been exposed for what they really are, it's time for the plucky Brits to come in and win everything

 

[Maxiton]

The important lessons to learn from all this, if you are young aspiring cyclist, is

1) Dope
2) Make friends with those in high places
3) Don't annoy ex-team mates.

If you follow these simple steps you can have a long, successful and lucrative career.

Lance just forgot step three.

I find it difficult to believe this recent case has much to do with either clean sport or cycling but rather is a case of a load of people that Lance has p@ssed off/done the dirty on etc over the years looking for payback.

Good news is that now these cheating Yanks have been exposed for what they really are, it's time for the plucky Brits to come in and win everything

In light of these events, UK Postal might be thinking twice.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

The important lessons to learn from all this, if you are young aspiring cyclist, is

1) Dope
2) Make friends with those in high places
3) Don't annoy ex-team mates.

If you follow these simple steps you can have a long, successful and lucrative career.

Lance just forgot step three.

I find it difficult to believe this recent case has much to do with either clean sport or cycling but rather is a case of a load of people that Lance has p@ssed off/done the dirty on etc over the years looking for payback.

Good news is that now these cheating Yanks have been exposed for what they really are, it's time for the plucky Brits to come in and win everything

I think the lesson (that some want to avoid) is that point no 2 no longer is true.
Point 3, while valid would not matter if the UCI was in control of this. Armstrongs reach is not inside USADA.