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Teams & Riders Ilan Van Wilder - Pale Rider

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It is a big ask to tell someone they will have to basically give up their own ambitions in the long run.

I could see Van Wilder playing along this season, because he is still at a stage where he is developing. He has started this season very good and if he continues to improve he will naturally want more. His contract expires at the end of this year. Maybe a team will try to offer him a deal and tempt him to leave with a promise of leadership. Lefevre will need a much bigger budget to keep his riders and pay them to be happy with being a supporting rider for Remco. Thats what UAE, Jumbo and Ineos are doing. Signing and piling up on GC-riders that could easily have been leaders on another team. In a sense, Ineos has in a way already adopted a sort "wolf-pack" strategy how they go into most races. They have 3-4 for options in almost every race.
I agree with this and am just left wondering with Van Wilder's, I don't want to say brazen declarations, but certainly boldly determined affirmations (which he has every right to express, mind you); at which point does patient collaboration become problematical internal rivalry? And what does this mean for Soudal-QS's immediate plans (probably very manageable) and those over say the next say 5 years (likely progressively less manageable). As you correctly observed, Ineos and then Jumbo-Visma have normally dealt with the issue by offering too lucrative contracts to turn down for guys who, yes, know they could be team leaders elsewhere, but on lower salaries and unlikely able to win big against the riders they've been hired to ride for in supporting roles.
 
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I agree with this and am just left wondering with Van Wilder's, I don't want to say brazen declarations, but certainly boldly determined affirmations (which he has every right to express, mind you); at which point does patient collaboration become problematical internal rivalry? And what does this mean for Soudal-QS plans over the next say 5 years. As you correctly observed, Ineos and then Jumbo-Visma have normally dealt with the issue by offering too lucrative contracts to turn down for guys who, yes, know they could be team leaders elsewhere, but on lower salaries and unlikely able to win big against the riders they've been hired to ride for in support roles.

Yes. It is a delicate situation and task at hand for Lefevre with the budget, amibitions of young talented riders and the strategy of the team in the future.
 
I agree with this and am just left wondering with Van Wilder's, I don't want to say brazen declarations, but certainly boldly determined affirmations (which he has every right to express, mind you); at which point does patient collaboration become problematical internal rivalry? And what does this mean for Soudal-QS's immediate plans (probably very manageable) and those over Say the next say 5 years (likely less manageable). As you correctly observed, Ineos and then Jumbo-Visma have normally dealt with the issue by offering too lucrative contracts to turn down for guys who, yes, know they could be team leaders elsewhere, but on lower salaries and unlikely able to win big against the riders they've been hired to ride for in supporting roles.
Amazing how you keep harping on him being too ambitious while in fact i would say he is not nearly ambitious enough. Maybe i didn't make myself clear, but there aren't many more talented upcoming GC riders in the peloton. So let him ride for Evenepoel until he is ready to ride for himself. He has done 2 stage races for the team so far, Burgos (5th) and Algarve (3rd), i 'd say he has shown he should get his own chances at least in 1 week races, and see from there. At least this year he will ride for Evenepoel, and i'm sure if he eventually does get his own chance in a GT, that Quickstep will get other support riders for Evenepoel.
 
Amazing how you keep harping on him being too ambitious while in fact i would say he is not nearly ambitious enough. Maybe i didn't make myself clear, but there aren't many more talented upcoming GC riders in the peloton. So let him ride for Evenepoel until he is ready to ride for himself. He has done 2 stage races for the team so far, Burgos (5th) and Algarve (3rd), i 'd say he has shown he should get his own chances at least in 1 week races, and see from there. At least this year he will ride for Evenepoel, and i'm sure if he eventually does get his own chance in a GT, that Quickstep will get other support riders for Evenepoel.
Not amazing at all, but just normal reaction to the boldness of his affirmations. Talking about a "free role" in a GT at this point is, in my view, like skipping some steps. This is all I've been implying; namely that it's a bit premature, from my perspective, to have such stated expectations, not that he won't at some point at Soudal or elsewhere get his chance. So I only see "harping on," to use your phrase, coming from your end about things I did not say or mean.

Of course Van Willer should be getting opportunities to lead the team to win shorter stage races, because at this stage in his career it will prepare him best for supporting Evenepoel in the coming GTs.

PS. Perhaps I didn't make myself clear, but it's not that his career should be hampered, only that the tenor of his ambitions at this time seems like it could create a dilemma in the team before its time.
 
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Not amazing at all, but just normal reaction to the boldness of his affirmations. Talking about a "free role" in a GT at this point is, in my view, like skipping some steps. This is all I've been implying; namely that it's a bit premature, from my perspective, to have such stated expectations, not that he won't at some point at Soudal or elsewhere get his chance.
He is not saying anything new. In fact upon joining, the team knew this and they agreed to it. This may be news to you, it's not to the team. The only thing he's saying is that it is too soon for him to settle for a career as a domestique, that he first wants to find out what he can achieve in his own right.
 
For me honestly it is the other way around. If Quickstep (Yes, I know) want to provide Evenepoel with team mates of the same quality that Pogacar and Jumbo have they will have to ensure that they give those riders the right incentives. And money sure isn’t going to be it.

No rider with the ability and potential that van Wilder has will go for a purely domestique role. Not even when we speak about GTs only. So if Quickstep want to keep van Wilder on board for a longer time as a domestique for Evenepoel in a GT, they will have to provide him with opportunities in stage races and also a GT (second one of the year).
 
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He is not saying anything new. In fact upon joining, the team knew this and they agreed to it. This may be news to you, it's not to the team. The only thing he's saying is that it is too soon for him to settle for a career as a domestique, that he first wants to find out what he can achieve in his own right.
I've gotten that and, not that it matters, agree he shouldn't settle for a career as a domestique, if he can become a world beater. But that remains to be seen and there are necessary steps along the way. And as I've expressed from the tenor of what he's saying, or perhaps the way it was reported, who knows; that he feels his time is destined to come sooner than later and that this could present issues within the team.

I may be misreading him, but honestly the first impression was, whoa, this might not be exactly as Soudal understood their agreement.
 
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For me honestly it is the other way around. If Quickstep (Yes, I know) want to provide Evenepoel with team mates of the same quality that Pogacar and Jumbo have they will have to ensure that they give those riders the right incentives. And money sure isn’t going to be it.

No rider with the ability and potential that van Wilder has will go for a purely domestique role. Not even when we speak about GTs only. So if Quickstep want to keep van Wilder on board for a longer time as a domestique for Evenepoel in a GT, they will have to provide him with opportunities in stage races and also a GT (second one of the year).
Nothing to disagree with here and I wasn't saying anything to the contrary, if my posts are read carefully.

Right now Pogacar is demonstrating leadership authority over his team, which is the best and easiest way to deal with such matters.

Van Willer is in many ways in Ayuso's position, but to my knowledge the Spaniard, while clearly very talented and ambitious, is not taking about his future as a reminder that he doesn't plan to serve Pogacar forever. True, at 19 he already podiumed at the Vuelta, but this would only give him more reason to do so.
 
It came to my mind, reading these last few posts, that maybe the same dilemma (for lack of better word) could have arisen if Lucien Van Impe had been on the same team as Merckx. I might be comparing Van Wilder to Van Impe in a way; would Lucien be in the same pickle? I'm just thinking out loud. Van Wilder has a great future no matter what he chooses to do. I hope he wins La Vuelta in 2024 if he enters, although so much can happen in such a long time.
 
Nothing to disagree with here and I wasn't saying anything to the contrary, if my posts are read carefully.

Right now Pogacar is demonstrating leadership authority over his team, which is the best and easiest way to deal with such matters.

Van Willer is in many ways in Ayuso's position, but to my knowledge the Spaniard, while clearly very talented and ambitious, is not taking about his future as a reminder that he doesn't plan to serve Pogacar forever. True, at 19 he already podiumed at the Vuelta, but this would only give him more reason to do so.
To my knowledge Ayuso got to ride for himself in his very first GT having proven nothing in a 3 week race prior, and has never been riding as a support rider for Pogacar to begin with. While Van Wilder to date has only done two 2.pro races at QS for himself. Other times he was riding either for Alaphilippe or Evenepoel. He even had to forfait his chances in other races when he was clearly the strongest man in the race, like Figueira Champions Classic, where he was clearly the strongest uphill, only to counter attacks so Pedersen could sprint. I don't think he's been claiming more than he should. Even when he finished 13th in Lombardia, it was Alaphilippe who was team leader, and finished 6 minutes behind Van Wilder.
 
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To my knowledge Ayuso got to ride for himself in his very first GT having proven nothing in a 3 week race prior, and has never been riding as a support rider for Pogacar to begin with. While Van Wilder to date has only done two 2.pro races at QS for himself. Other times he was riding either for Alaphilippe or Evenepoel. He even had to forfait his chances in other races when he was clearly the strongest man in the race, like Figueira Champions Classic, where he was clearly the strongest uphill, only to counter attacks so Pedersen could sprint. I don't think he's been claiming more than he should. Even when he finished 13th in Lombardia, it was Alaphilippe who was team leader, and finished 6 minutes behind Van Wilder.
Fair enough, although having never ridden a GT how exactly could Ayuso have proved anything beforehand? Besides, it was the same for Pogacar in his first GT. At 19 how many opportunities did Ayuso have to be called up in support of Pogacar? Moreover, Ayuso is a Spaniard of prodigous talent and Pog wasn't going to the Vuelta, nor would Ayuso have gone to the Tour in his first GT, even in support of Tadej. So there was no conflict. Plus the team once used the Vuelta as a testing ground for Pogacar and so it followed, given the team circumstances and his Spanish nationality, Ayuso would do likewise. Mission accomplished with Ayuso's podium, but now he keeps a low profile. Rest assured, he won't be given a "free role" at the Tour. The point is that I think, with UAE having an already twice Tour winner, the situation with the two teams is completely different. Leading into Tadej's first and second Tour wins, in other words, everything was in function of making Pogacar arrive in Paris in yellow. By contrast, Soudal and Evenepoel haven't gotten that one yet, nor even attempted it, let alone two; and yet a support rider is already talking about the possibility of having a "free role" during a GT with Evenepoel riding. Which GT, one might ask? Certainly not the upcoming Giro. Tour 2024? I think it should be all in for Evenepoel there as well. Hence bringing up a "free role" seems controversial to me, but anyone is free to make of it what he wants.
 
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In a duo-interview for Humo, Vervaeke says the only one of the Teide-Giro team (he speaks of the Giro team, but i assume that was before Masnada got replaced by Ballerini) that can beat Evenepoel in a sprint occasionally, is Van Wilder. Since Evenepoel started working on his punch, i had actually been wondering about this. Van Wilder, imho, has more natural punch. I mean he has always had somewhat of a punch, even without really focussing on it. His results on Foia and Malhao in Algarve earlier this year already showed that. He also had a nice punch in TdS last year, in one of the earlier stages, but it wasn't enough for a win. In Mallorca, he finished 3rd in a sprint for 2nd after getting cut off at the last corner and having to start his sprint from last place iirc. I think the 30k TT in the Giro should suit him better, because it's longer and because it isn't one straight line, so accelerating becomes a factor. But he probably won't ride that TT full gas.
 
In a duo-interview for Humo, Vervaeke says the only one of the Teide-Giro team (he speaks of the Giro team, but i assume that was before Masnada got replaced by Ballerini) that can beat Evenepoel in a sprint occasionally, is Van Wilder. Since Evenepoel started working on his punch, i had actually been wondering about this. Van Wilder, imho, has more natural punch. I mean he has always had somewhat of a punch, even without really focussing on it. His results on Foia and Malhao in Algarve earlier this year already showed that. He also had a nice punch in TdS last year, in one of the earlier stages, but it wasn't enough for a win. In Mallorca, he finished 3rd in a sprint for 2nd after getting cut off at the last corner and having to start his sprint from last place iirc. I think the 30k TT in the Giro should suit him better, because it's longer and because it isn't one straight line, so accelerating becomes a factor. But he probably won't ride that TT full gas.
Nope he can only go full in the first and last TT. His punch was always good but this year he looks stronger which results in better results. Hope he can have another shot for himself in a stage race this year.
 
Nope he can only go full in the first and last TT. His punch was always good but this year he looks stronger which results in better results. Hope he can have another shot for himself in a stage race this year.
De tijdrit halfweg zal afhangen van hoe ik mij op dat moment voel. Ik rijd graag tijdritten en ik wil zien wat ik waard ben in zo’n sterk deelnemersveld.
 
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Nope he can only go full in the first and last TT. His punch was always good but this year he looks stronger which results in better results. Hope he can have another shot for himself in a stage race this year.
Next year they really should split him and Remco up for races like Paris Nice/Tirreno and Dauphine/Suisse. Let him ride for gc in the one that Remco doesn't race.
 
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Next year they really should split him and Remco up for races like Paris Nice/Tirreno and Dauphine/Suisse. Let him ride for gc in the one that Remco doesn't race.
From what i'm reading, after the Giro he should get his personal program where he gets to ride for his own ambitions. I would also think it would be funny if they went to a race together and see Evenepoel working for Van Wilder. Say both went to Burgos, Evenpoel to get in shape, Van Wilder for GC.
 
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Well no one, but I assume Worlds is a big target and Remco seems blazing every time he has some major goal. Its just not I cant really see this guy in a domestique role.
Well, he has worked for Alaphilippe, he has worked for Jakobsen and he has even worked for Almeida (in Emilia). If there is a race that would only suit him only to get/stay in shape but below his standards (something he already won, or not a WT race), i don't think he would feel it "below him" to thank a rider who has been very important for him in support. I can tell you that it was Evenepoel and his father themselves who were lobbying with the team to get Van Wilder at QuickStep. So rest assured he values him and he knows what he is capable of. By that i mean Evenepoel knows Van Wilder has the talent to claim his own spot and has forfait his chances in order to support Evenepoel. But to go back to my initial post, that is why i said it would be funny to see him work as a GC domestique in a race he could win himself. It doesn't mean i'm expecting it to happen. But if there is one rider at QuickStep i would see him do it for, it's Van Wilder.
 
Before the start today he gave a rather deflated, pessimistic interview with Dutch Eurosport. He doesn't feel a hundred percent. The team (the 3 guys that are left) is having a hard time mentally. It's not fun anymore, the weather is harsch... But during the stage he gave the impression (first time this Giro) that he's really good. But i fear he burnt too many matches during the stage. The group Skujins/Denz got a gap when he was at the back of the break wrestling with his rain jacket. He also spent a lot of energy trying to get the chase going, and then trying to get away in a second group. But he got the impression that nobody wanted to cooperate with him and nobody wanted to let him go either. On the climb he did all of the work, and rode from group 4 to group 2. Winning the sprint of that group was the best he could get out of it.

But it leaves me wondering, will he have enough in the tank after today to survive tomorrow, or will he lose what he gained (or even more)? He's at 6 minutes now in GC, too close to go in the attack now. So will he try to defend (improve) his GC position, or drop back in order to go in a break for a stagewin later on?
 
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