think about it. he may well be. who else is better, who hasn't been discredited? there's arguably Andy Schleck, although he hasn't achieved enough yet and frankly, you get the feeling his luck will run out at some point.
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is Cuddles the greatest rider of our generation?
- Thread starter delbified
- Start date
- Feb 20, 2010
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What is "our" generation? How far back does it stretch? How much evidence is there needed to "discredit" somebody? Is Cancellara "discredited"? Nibali? Boonen? Hushovd? Sastre? Menchov even?
hrotha said:
ability to win classics.. check
ability to win* grand tours.. no
* cuddles may not have won any, but it's reasonable to now wonder whether he should have been awarded at least one victory.
- Feb 20, 2010
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delbified said:
At least one? Apart from the 2007 Tour (I assume you mean that one) which one?
Also, "classics" is a broad definition. Cuddles couldn't win the ones Boonen wins.
Also, it seems that what you're after is more of a "who is the best all-rounder" thread. In which case I say Alejandro Valverde, but accept that he is discredited, and submit Fabian Cancellara for your consideration. He can win non-flat stage races (Tirreno-Adriatico, Suisse), has won 3 Monuments, and several Worlds titles.
Evans is pretty good at most things, but I'm sure he'd give some of the talent up to be a master at one of them and get that win his talent merits. As such, he's a prodigiously talented guy whose palmarès has never been good enough for the talent he has.
And if you can't make the most of what you've got - not just because of dopers - then you don't deserve to be called the best of a generation.
delbified said:
Hate to burst your bubble, but Cuddles transfuses (and most probably other things as well). Only someone who doesn't know anything about cycling would suggest otherwise.
Gilbert
- Jun 14, 2010
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delbified said:
Relax im joking, obviously
Im a big Cuddles fan and i rate him up there. Hes not as good as Contador or Valverde but id be willing to even give him the benefit of the doubt over Menchov. Yes Menchov.
Problem is, what your saying is that Cuddles is the best rider based on the fact that the better riders got bans(contador, Valverde, Basso). So your argument is based on the idea that Cuddles is clean, which many of us would dispute, but then this thread belongs in the clinic. Also bare in mind that 1 month ago you wouldnt have had this thread because Contis name was not ummm dirtied by scandal. Whats to say 1 month from now, or even a year or 10 years from now, Cuddles name will be dirtied and then wed have wrongly crowned him?
Bare in mind its a stretch to call him the best of the rest anyway, because even if he scrapes past Menchov I dont see him better than Cancellara. Maybe Boonen. Maybe Cav.
Unless you think Canc is also discredited because of that Paris Roubaix thing
- Jul 29, 2010
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Menchov has won three GTs and Evans probably never will. I'm sure I will get corrected on this one but I think Cuds has only done well in the last couple years in the classics. Ok some math, carry the one, solve the polynomial-polynomial with a hook... Menchov is better, settled.
Ok.. Im going to mark Cadel on five main criteria..
Grand Tours. He hasnt won one, while Contador, Menchov, Valverde, Sastre, Basso, Nibali, Vinoukourov, Di Luca etc all have.
Monuments. He hasnt won one, while the likes of Cavendish, Vinoukourov, Gilbert, Schleck, Ballan, Pozzato, Di Luca have, and the likes of Cancellara, Boonen, Freire, Cunego, Devolder, Valverde have won multiples.
Semi Classics. A sole win in Fleche Wallone
Stage race wins. The Settimana internazionale di Coppi e Bartali in 2008, Tour de Romandie in 2006, Tour of Austria in 2004 and 2001 and the Tour of Tasmania back in the nineties.
World Championships. He has a world championship win.
So on the basis of NO grand tours, NO monuments, 1 semi classic, 5 minor stage race wins in his carerr and a world championship, its a definate NO, CADEL EVANS IS NOT THE GREATEST RIDER OF HIS GENERATION. He would be in the top 10.. probably/possibly, and only there because of his world championship and general consistency, Contador, Cancellara, Boonen, Cavendish, Menchov, Valverde, Cunego, Basso, Baby Schleck, Nibali..oops thats ten, maybe cuddles is 11th..
On your basis Juan Antonio Flecha is one world championship away from being the best rider of his generation
Grand Tours. He hasnt won one, while Contador, Menchov, Valverde, Sastre, Basso, Nibali, Vinoukourov, Di Luca etc all have.
Monuments. He hasnt won one, while the likes of Cavendish, Vinoukourov, Gilbert, Schleck, Ballan, Pozzato, Di Luca have, and the likes of Cancellara, Boonen, Freire, Cunego, Devolder, Valverde have won multiples.
Semi Classics. A sole win in Fleche Wallone
Stage race wins. The Settimana internazionale di Coppi e Bartali in 2008, Tour de Romandie in 2006, Tour of Austria in 2004 and 2001 and the Tour of Tasmania back in the nineties.
World Championships. He has a world championship win.
So on the basis of NO grand tours, NO monuments, 1 semi classic, 5 minor stage race wins in his carerr and a world championship, its a definate NO, CADEL EVANS IS NOT THE GREATEST RIDER OF HIS GENERATION. He would be in the top 10.. probably/possibly, and only there because of his world championship and general consistency, Contador, Cancellara, Boonen, Cavendish, Menchov, Valverde, Cunego, Basso, Baby Schleck, Nibali..oops thats ten, maybe cuddles is 11th..
On your basis Juan Antonio Flecha is one world championship away from being the best rider of his generation
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TeamSkyFans said:
To be fair i dont think you can judge a catergory by "has he won it, yes / no". Under this system Cuddles is an equal gt rider to Cav. His tdf runners up spots must count for something. Under this logic Gilbert has one 1 monument and a few semi classics - nothing special. But if you look closely hes top 10ed if not top 5ed in all 5 monuments, hence why we call him such a great rider.
ANd the OPs point was that Cuddles was the best not to test +ve. Obviously no one would suggest that Cuddles is anywhere near Valverde or Contador. Thats ridiculous.
I would also like to nominate Cunego. 1 gt and 2 monuments (well 1 twice)
- Feb 20, 2010
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with 1 GT, 3 Monument wins, 1 semi-classic, 5 minor stage race wins (all of which are more important than the Tour of Tasmania), you would have to give the Worlds some ridiculous, gigantic level of kudos to say that Damiano Cunego wasn't better than Cadel Evans on a palmarès basis. Cunego isn't discredited, and is one of the riders most commonly pointed to as a clean rider.
I'd be hard-pushed to say that I thought Cunego is a better rider than Evans even though I like him much more - but Cunego has accumulated a better palmarès with possibly less talent (making the assumption that Evans is also clean and therefore both riders are currently riding at their natural talent levels) - which would imply that Cunego is tactically more astute or organises his race calendar better. This would hardly be surprising - it is one of Evans' greatest flaws that he will go in the red too long when it doesn't matter (pre-major race races) or in stages where he'd have been better served letting go and riding his own tempo.
But I would struggle to award 'best rider of his generation' to a rider who has shown such tactical weakness, because the best riders aren't just physical specimen, they're clever too. It's why Thor Hushovd is able to win the '09 points jersey despite being beaten comprehensively in the sprinting duel.
Of course, you can just be an utter freak of awesomeness and just be that damn good physically - like in Lombardia last year, Magnus Backstedt said "Philippe Gilbert will attack here. It's suited for him, and he'll go there". Backstedt knew it, the other riders knew - they were all watching him. He went anyway, and they couldn't follow him. He was just that good. Cancellara in de Ronde was similar. I don't recall ever seeing anything like that from Evans.
I'd be hard-pushed to say that I thought Cunego is a better rider than Evans even though I like him much more - but Cunego has accumulated a better palmarès with possibly less talent (making the assumption that Evans is also clean and therefore both riders are currently riding at their natural talent levels) - which would imply that Cunego is tactically more astute or organises his race calendar better. This would hardly be surprising - it is one of Evans' greatest flaws that he will go in the red too long when it doesn't matter (pre-major race races) or in stages where he'd have been better served letting go and riding his own tempo.
But I would struggle to award 'best rider of his generation' to a rider who has shown such tactical weakness, because the best riders aren't just physical specimen, they're clever too. It's why Thor Hushovd is able to win the '09 points jersey despite being beaten comprehensively in the sprinting duel.
Of course, you can just be an utter freak of awesomeness and just be that damn good physically - like in Lombardia last year, Magnus Backstedt said "Philippe Gilbert will attack here. It's suited for him, and he'll go there". Backstedt knew it, the other riders knew - they were all watching him. He went anyway, and they couldn't follow him. He was just that good. Cancellara in de Ronde was similar. I don't recall ever seeing anything like that from Evans.
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Straßenrennen said:
not sure if you can seriously compare the Tour of Gila to the Tour of Tasmania :/
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