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Is cycling a sport

Feb 24, 2015
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There have been lots of threads about doping and some about changing the nature of cycling to help with the problem and there are lots of arguments on both sides of the debate.

But is the real question, one we have to ask ourselves. Is cycling still a sport? if it is then the best man should win and cheats should get busted and all the self righteousness and indignant anti doping brigade are correct.

But what if it is entertainment. Big business and money coming together to put on a show and attract sponsors.

Lets look at sport in general
The olympics - The paragon of sporting virtue and athletic enterprise. Long time bastion of cheats, liars, corruption, scandal and huge money and sponsorship deals.
The World Championships in any sport - the same issues as with the Olympics only on a slightly smaller scale.
The world cup, beset by cheating and scandal from day one and home to probably some of the most corrupt people in the world.
The tour de france - beset by cheating from the very first race until the very latest race.
Wimbledon, the superbowl, Stanley Cup, Royal Ascot, Formula one. Any sport whether purely human in context or with the use of animals or machines has been beset by cheats and cheating since their inception.

I would ask this question in regards to cycling.
Do you want to change the doping in cycling to make it a level playing field? or
Do you want to change the perception of the sport you love; so it is not seen as the doping pariah among world sports?

If you answered the first question as a yes then I would challenge you to think about the human physiology and how any human can be the same as another and therefore how any playing field can be level.
Is a cyclist growing up at altitude with a much higher Vo2 max and Hematocrit level the equal of a sea level dweller with an average blood vector profile. Why should those two people be matched against each other when one will have such an obvious advantage?

If we look at other sports around the world there is less of an outrage against doping, in general terms among the fans and officialdom. Why would that be?

Is it because the majority of the larger sports in the world have come to understand that at there basest level it is not about cheats or pushing the boundaries or overstepping the line. It is about entertainment.

NFL is full of drug cheats and is full of people pushing the boundaries all the time. The Patriots are seen as the pantomime villain of the league for pushing things to the limit as much as possible. and a four match fine for one player was all they got for effectively cheating their way to winning the superbowl. The pinnacle of the sport. The bigger sanctions are reserved for those players who misbehave off the field and assault people or get into trouble. Which is dealt with by the law enforcement and then by the NFL as well. Is it because that is more damaging to the society in which the NFL is part of and is seen as more damaging to their reputation; than the cheating on the field.

Soccer is full of cheats from thierry Henry to diego Maradonna and every forward in the game who has dived for a penalty, to drug cheats, to organised crime buying referees and fixing matches. As is cricket, as is rugby. Does any of this dampen the support or distract from the spectacle, no because it is not sport it is tribal entertainment and escapism.

In most sports there are cheats, in the majority of sports they are not vilified and derided and shunned by the fans anywhere near as much as they are in cycling.
Many fans question why the cheats end up working in cycling. Maybe because it is one of the few sports in the world where they are so demonised by the outside world and the fanbase, that they are only welcome back in the clique in which they grew up. They cannot go anywhere else as they are seen as too dirty to get a job or be anyone in society outside of their sport.

If we stopped looking at cycling as the only pure sport left, and saw it for what it may have become. A huge money machine, attracting large audiences and large sponsorship cheques, driving teams and riders to do ever more, ride harder, ride longer, climb faster and sprint quicker. Ever expanding to try to attract more audiences in more countries and make more money. Then maybe we would be less worried about the doping and perhaps the right thing to do is to look after the riders as we would a prize racehorse.
Give them the best drugs to make them the best possible racers, while also making sure we can preserve them for a long life afterwards, given that racehorses are the usual test subjects for many drugs, it is interesting to find that racehorse owners and stables will make sure a racehorse has a long life after retirement to enable the earning potential of the horse in Stud, which is often far more than it will ever win on the track.

It is maybe a shame we don't look after the cyclists in the same way, instead it appears we want them to be the best they can be for our entertainment and then we discard them and forget them, not caring if the drugs they took during their career to entertain us; will cause them any long term damage or side effects.
 
The impression I get from Clinic and even PRR forum regulars is Cycling is viewed as entertainment - like WWE. Who cares if your favourite rider dopes - if doping means your favourite rider can dance on the pedals or attack at will its all good. Anyhow they all dope right so its a level playing field anyway (except if you are Sky :) ).

But then isn't all professional sport more entertainment too? If it wasn't entertaining people would not follow it and sponsors wouldn't tip money into these sports or successful athletes. Sports are always looking to tweak rules to make their sport more entertaining - F1, Rugby (both League and Union) and Cricket (T20 and ODI) are examples.

Personally while cycling is still dirty I think its less dirty than in recent past and that's a good thing. I can't imagine WWE is too healthy for those athletes involved. Everyone who watches WWE knows its fake. But some who follow Cycling either don't care or choose to forget depending upon who their favourite riders are. Cycling fans preference for entertainment over sport is part of why omerta has worked in my opinion.
 
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jens_attacks said:
is this real life?

b8liyicwfhpjmq7.jpg
 
Aug 4, 2011
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what's cheating ? The richest team?. the best tech? the smartest use of PEDs? the best responder? The compliant sporting authorities ? Cheating ref's ? The sponsors who need to see return's? the compliance of fans to ignore the truth and watch and pay anyway?
The news media and their lack of real journalism to dig where they should? The media's need for hero's and villian's " its pay dirt"
You get what you sow. That is sport .....
 
Jul 17, 2015
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Which aspect of cycling are you talking about? If it is pro road racing then since when has it not been a hotbed of dope fiends? The pro road scene is a circus anyway with 'big names' who have faces that must fit into the general commercial nature of the endeavour. It certainly isn't about pure athletiscism.
 
Rob27172 said:
But what if it is entertainment. Big business and money coming together to put on a show and attract sponsors.
Then they're doing a terrible job because the "train model" that has predominated in dominant forces for the last 25 years, whether it be GC riders (Banesto for Indurain, USPS for Armstrong, Sky for Wiggins and Froome) or sprinters (Saeco for Cipollini, Fassa Bortolo for Ale-Jet, HTC for Cavendish), has sucked an awful lot of the entertainment out, leaving us with a less attractive show.

So since becoming more artificial (the level of result skewing due to doping is much higher in the EPO era and beyond than before), the racing has actually become less entertaining, not more.
 
Sep 29, 2012
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I think you need to differentiate between the generic "cycling" and "pro cycling".

Only because the perception that pro cycling is the be all and end all of competitive pursuit on a bicycle is flawed and missing the potential for it to return to its glory days.

Waxing lyrical but meh.
 
When were the glory days?
Cycling has been corrupt since its inception.
Races were bought and racers hopped on trains since the sport's inception.
If you want to see sport, go to a local industrial park criterium race contested by juniors or cat 4's. wait, check that.
Maybe just go out on a group ride and race to the next hilltop with a bunch of buddies. That's sport.
 
Sep 29, 2012
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the delgados said:
If you want to see sport, go to a local industrial park criterium race contested by juniors or cat 4's. wait, check that.
Maybe just go out on a group ride and race to the next hilltop with a bunch of buddies. That's sport.

Perfect. In full agreement.

A shame that some still dope there, but I think that's where it needs to start again.
 
This is actually an excellent, somewhat philosophical/existential, question to be asked of any athletes.

What do you consider your sport to be, and what do you consider sportsmanlike (or unsportsmanlike) conduct to be?

(I'm sorry, I'm going to have to ponder this one in my particular sport, because each sport has different rules.)


Doping is always out/unsportsmanlike, though, as far as I'm concerned.
 
Feb 22, 2011
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So I'm clear: I was supposed to find the Tour de France "entertaining" this year? Because if that is the organizers' idea of entertainment they better read up on their Vince McMahon. The new cheating is the cycling version of reading a monthly employment productivity report. The current regime of legal doping creates the level playing field that minimizes the possibility of random surprising events. I can appreciate the argument that we should acknowledge pro cycling has been, is, and will always be dirty--so we should just let them dope like pro wrestlers. I'm sure someone would still watch cycling...
 
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skippythepinhead said:
So I'm clear: I was supposed to find the Tour de France "entertaining" this year? Because if that is the organizers' idea of entertainment they better read up on their Vince McMahon. The new cheating is the cycling version of reading a monthly employment productivity report. The current regime of legal doping creates the level playing field that minimizes the possibility of random surprising events. I can appreciate the argument that we should acknowledge pro cycling has been, is, and will always be dirty--so we should just let them dope like pro wrestlers. I'm sure someone would still watch cycling...
Just accept it for what it is - entertainment for the unquestioning masses.

Do you have any opportunities besides cycling to make a living?
 
Re: Re:

Tricycle Rider said:
skippythepinhead said:
So I'm clear: I was supposed to find the Tour de France "entertaining" this year? Because if that is the organizers' idea of entertainment they better read up on their Vince McMahon. The new cheating is the cycling version of reading a monthly employment productivity report. The current regime of legal doping creates the level playing field that minimizes the possibility of random surprising events. I can appreciate the argument that we should acknowledge pro cycling has been, is, and will always be dirty--so we should just let them dope like pro wrestlers. I'm sure someone would still watch cycling...
Just accept it for what it is - entertainment for the unquestioning masses.

Do you have any opportunities besides cycling to make a living?

So lets drop all dope controls? If you did that pro cycling would become as popular as .... pro wrestling. Would it be more entertaining? Not necessarily - unless you felt the Indurain years where entertaining. You might gain some supporters but you would lose more sponsor money than you gained. Isn't that why the governing bodies take the avoid positives route? If all controls were dropped like pro wrestling the sport's evolution from sport to joke would be complete. This is like illicit drugs - will the "war" might never be won. But the alternative of just giving up is worse.
 
Aug 4, 2011
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Re: Re:

Cookster15 said:
Tricycle Rider said:
skippythepinhead said:
So I'm clear: I was supposed to find the Tour de France "entertaining" this year? Because if that is the organizers' idea of entertainment they better read up on their Vince McMahon. The new cheating is the cycling version of reading a monthly employment productivity report. The current regime of legal doping creates the level playing field that minimizes the possibility of random surprising events. I can appreciate the argument that we should acknowledge pro cycling has been, is, and will always be dirty--so we should just let them dope like pro wrestlers. I'm sure someone would still watch cycling...
Just accept it for what it is - entertainment for the unquestioning masses.

Do you have any opportunities besides cycling to make a living?

So lets drop all dope controls? If you did that pro cycling would become as popular as .... pro wrestling. Would it be more entertaining? Not necessarily - unless you felt the Indurain years where entertaining. You might gain some supporters but you would lose more sponsor money than you gained. Isn't that why the governing bodies take the avoid positives route? If all controls were dropped like pro wrestling the sport's evolution from sport to joke would be complete. This is like illicit drugs - will the "war" might never be won. But the alternative of just giving up is worse.

War....it's not a war its a cycle race.
Do you really think the UCI etc are making a difference. You are certainly not watching a clean sport "any" and I doubt you ever have and most people don't care. Zidane won everything in football he's a busted doper. Do the football fans call for his head like the cycling fans called for Armstrongs?
Make Doping legal , Lets just be more honest and stop pretending and wasting huge amounts of money resources. Athletes always look for gains. Get some control and make it safe "ricco" and get rid of the stigma.
40,000 people die a year in the UK through alcohol. Is that banned? Your son or daughter will have to make that choice if they want to compete at the highest level.

Think about Illicit drugs ,,,how many people die a year in the uk from taking
Ecstasy etc 6-27 " unknown health circumstances "
cannabis 1.
crack/coke, 214
alcohol,,,,40.000

where is the real problem? Why do you and others get blinded by the media " drugs are bad"
more people die falling out their bed than taking ecstasy :eek: Why don't they ban beds.

Their is no war on drugs ....it a myth. It's making huge amounts of money for some of the wealthiest and most powerful people in the world ever heard of the CIA for instance? Do you know about the poppy fields in afgahanistan

https://www.corbettreport.com/exciting-investment-opportunity-in-afghanistan-record-returns-expected/
 
Aug 5, 2015
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Think Cycling, like a lot of top level "sport" is a business with all of the pitfalls that surround a typical business. Whether you believe in UCI or not, they are running the business and I can't see this changing. Even FIFA with its track record will still end up running football, albeit with a different team after Blatter goes.

If doping in cycling is rampant (as many here believe), a level playing field would have to be a free for all (ie anything goes). Anything in between is just a modified version of the current attempted controls at a different level. Getting rid of the controls would then limit it to how much risk/reward a cyclist wants to take with their health.

Unless someone can come up with a definite means of proving a rider is cheating in any way, shape or form, controls are always going to lag the current situation. Given that, cycling, like nearly all other "sports", will always be surrounded by doubt and uncertainty. Whether you as a fan can tolerate that or not is up to the individual.

Trying to persuade a fan of rider A that they are doping and rider B isn't, without any solid proof, is a bit like urinating into the wind :)
 
Re:

Tricycle Rider said:
This is actually an excellent, somewhat philosophical/existential, question to be asked of any athletes.

What do you consider your sport to be, and what do you consider sportsmanlike (or unsportsmanlike) conduct to be?

(I'm sorry, I'm going to have to ponder this one in my particular sport, because each sport has different rules.)


Doping is always out/unsportsmanlike, though, as far as I'm concerned.

If you don't mind me asking, what is your sport? And what are your conclusions?
 
Interesting OP, the topic is very similar to the one about changing the business model of pro-cycling, though. Sport versus entertainment, legalizing PED or stopping controls, which would eliminate scandals, bad image/PR, and not spook sponsors.

@ the delgados and Dear Wiggo: yes, the sport of cycling exists, in youth, recreational, and low-level competitions. It's a great sport. And IMO we owe it to the kids, the next generation of riders to keep it a sport. So they can believe in cycling, dream, train hard, and who knows make it to the top.

@ the delgados: the glory days ended with EPO. This is not to say that pre-EPO cycling was clean. Anquetil was pretty open about it. Also, Guimard giving Merckx a run for his money in '72 comes to mind. Doping could turn an OK rider into a contender. Yet, it was pretty much an even playing field and there definitely was uncertainty wrt the outcome of a race.

What the proponents of a free for all cycling model is ensure that teams with $$$ can get an edge, namely the best doping program, and dominate the peloton. And get a nice return on investment. I'm against it: that is not sport, that is not the cycling I love. I understand that some disagree (I have argued with Ray many times already). I would concede that anti-doping as it exists is not working, it is a waste of money, and acknowledging its existence is devastating from a PR standpoint. That's why FIFA, many more federations, now the IAAF won't admit that doping is so rampant in their sport.

I don't believe that cycling should give up the anti-doping fight that has never really taken place. UCI should take a side and act accordingly, instead of sitting in the middle, promote the sport, yet defend the business/PR side by doing just enough to look like it's fighting doping, never bust anyone, and claim that the sport is clean.
 
@texeng: In my opinion, the business aspect negates the sports aspect. by that i mean there are always losers in sports. but the business aspect cannot accept that rule, hence doping. i love pro cycling purely for the spectacle. there is no better scene in sports (oops, sorry) than watching riders climb a mountain filled with thousands of fans going crazy. i've witnessed it many times on tv, and it always makes the hair on the back of my neck stand up.

@tonton: i always enjoy reading your contributions to this forum. (shout out!) you are thoughtful and funny. that said, i don't see how epo is any different than amphetamines or steroids or jumping on trains or whatever. there were no glory days in cycling. the whole purpose was to gain an advantage and beat your opponent so you can win money and prestige. i'm not suggesting a free for all in terms of doping, but i am suggesting that maybe riders and team owners should get together and decide collectively what is acceptable. this is what happens in north american sports where the players have a legal right to collectively bargain.
 
Aug 5, 2015
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Re:

the delgados said:
@texeng: In my opinion, the business aspect negates the sports aspect. by that i mean there are always losers in sports. but the business aspect cannot accept that rule, hence doping. i love pro cycling purely for the spectacle. there is no better scene in sports (oops, sorry) than watching riders climb a mountain filled with thousands of fans going crazy. i've witnessed it many times on tv, and it always makes the hair on the back of my neck stand up.

Don't disagree with you at all, Delgados. Unfortunately the business aspect is where we are with all major sports now and have been ever since a sponsor came along. A sponsor wants results which may in turn lead to doping, which when revealed, causes the sponsor to lose interest. Sounds like a vicious circle to me.

If we could turn the clock back and get rid of the need for sponsors, I wonder whether any of us outside of France would be watching the TdF though, or any of the other major events?
 
I've written this in other threads, but there was a great New Yorker article from Gladwell a few years ago on doping, the Olympics, cycling. It really put things in perspective.

One great point he made was about the motto of the Olympics. It's along the lines of faster, stronger, higher. As he points out, this then isn't about sport and competition, but pushing the human body to new limits. If it takes dope, so be it.

Cycling is definitely a sport to me and I'd have more fun watching the pro peloton if I knew doping wasn't so rampant.
 
Re:

the delgados said:
@tonton: i always enjoy reading your contributions to this forum. (shout out!) you are thoughtful and funny. that said, i don't see how epo is any different than amphetamines or steroids or jumping on trains or whatever. there were no glory days in cycling. the whole purpose was to gain an advantage and beat your opponent so you can win money and prestige. i'm not suggesting a free for all in terms of doping, but i am suggesting that maybe riders and team owners should get together and decide collectively what is acceptable. this is what happens in north american sports where the players have a legal right to collectively bargain.
I truly enjoy your takes as well :) . Bolded: very important, and also debated in the "changing the business model" thread. IMO, for changes in cycling to take place, the riders must be part of the solution. They are the ones who ultimately decide to take or not to take PEDs. I'm convinced that a majority of riders wants cycling to be clean. They need to have the collective power to say "no", to confront LA-like bullies, or to tell Oleg to STFU. Right now, the CPA is a joke, it is not a union. And that's what riders need: a union, with a system of pension, and I suggest the possibility to forfeit that pension if testing positive. And generalize retro-active testing.

To your point, cheating has always been part of...every sport. I will argue that once upon a time, doping wasn't as big a difference maker. Eddy Merckx himself needed luck to win the '71 TdF, some luck also against the Dr. Mabuse experiment Cyrille Guimard in '72, and he did lose in '75. There was no shortage of Tour avorites in the '80s. No such stories since the beginning of the EPO-era. One team acting like a big steam roller, with domestiques beating true climbers on MTF: not credible, not really sport. And not even good entertainment.
 
Re: Re:

Tonton said:
the delgados said:
@tonton: i always enjoy reading your contributions to this forum. (shout out!) you are thoughtful and funny. that said, i don't see how epo is any different than amphetamines or steroids or jumping on trains or whatever. there were no glory days in cycling. the whole purpose was to gain an advantage and beat your opponent so you can win money and prestige. i'm not suggesting a free for all in terms of doping, but i am suggesting that maybe riders and team owners should get together and decide collectively what is acceptable. this is what happens in north american sports where the players have a legal right to collectively bargain.
I truly enjoy your takes as well :) . Bolded: very important, and also debated in the "changing the business model" thread. IMO, for changes in cycling to take place, the riders must be part of the solution. They are the ones who ultimately decide to take or not to take PEDs. I'm convinced that a majority of riders wants cycling to be clean. They need to have the collective power to say "no", to confront LA-like bullies, or to tell Oleg to STFU. Right now, the CPA is a joke, it is not a union. And that's what riders need: a union, with a system of pension, and I suggest the possibility to forfeit that pension if testing positive. And generalize retro-active testing.

To your point, cheating has always been part of...every sport. I will argue that once upon a time, doping wasn't as big a difference maker. Eddy Merckx himself needed luck to win the '71 TdF, some luck also against the Dr. Mabuse experiment Cyrille Guimard in '72, and he did lose in '75. There was no shortage of Tour avorites in the '80s. No such stories since the beginning of the EPO-era. One team acting like a big steam roller, with domestiques beating true climbers on MTF: not credible, not really sport. And not even good entertainment.
This is very much a standout for me. As an example, look at the last say, 10 TDF's. How often have we been able to look at the start list whittle down the contenders - the true contenders - to about 3-4 riders at most? The same with true Green Jersey contenders and the most dominant sprinter.

Before the race even starts most of us here could have provided a list of the likely stage winners and been 75% correct. You know that a break expert like LLS/Voeckler is almost certainly going to get a stage. You know that first McEwen, then Cav and now Kittel are going to win 2 or more stages. You know that Zabel, then McEwen, now Sagan are almost untouchable for green. You know which of the secondary sprinters are almost guaranteed a stage at some point (Hushovd and now Greipel come to mind here.) You know that one of the 5-6 secondary GC contenders will be allowed to attack and get a stage.

Each year there is very rarely more than 2 or 3 stages going to riders you wouldn't expect. As for surprising GC contenders, you have to look back to Voeckler in 2011, Wigans in 2009 and arguably Contador in 2007. The spectacle, the glorious uncertainty, is becoming all too rare and the sport is suffering for it IMO.