Is Specialized keeping their prime frames only for the Pros

May 24, 2010
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Specialized is busy bragging about the previous S-Works SL3, and the new Mclaren/Specialized collaboration, the Venge. But, in the meantime, the "Team Geo" has vanished, and what we the consumers are left with is some very high price point frames, with some comparatively slack head tube lengths/angles. Specialized has told me it was because of retailers confusion and complaints. That sure sounds like a flimsy excuse to me. Anybody got any thoughts on this subject?
 
May 5, 2009
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you mean that S-WORKS for consumer are lower quality than S-WORKS for pro or that "normal" SPECIALIZED frames are lower quality than S-WORKS?

just that I understand... thx
 
Aug 4, 2009
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The main reason for sponsorship is to test the new products then they go into production after the Tour usualy so dont expect to be riding same bikes as the pro tour at least untill August September and even then some wont go into production unless they are sure they will sell.
 
May 24, 2010
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Sorry for the lack of clarity that seems to have taken place. I wasn't saying that the frames were of lesser quality than the pro frames. Nor was I expecting Specialized to be selling the public, up to the minute, pro models. What I was observing was that the previously available, "Team Geometry" models have been pulled off the market. Now, all their models come with a less aggressive standard geometry, while the more aggressive geometry is no longer available.
An example of this can be seen over at Trek, where they have an H1, H2, and H3 frame fit. H1 being the most aggressive geometry, (and according to some reviews, a much better ride than the slacker standard geometry model) and H3 being the slackest frame geometry, for a much more upright riding position. Specialized had two geometry's available, up 'til last year. Now they only offer the public the slacker version of the two. I wonder what the real reasoning is behind this decision. Especially when they are trying to present a more racy, aggressive cycle product.
 
May 5, 2009
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thanks for the clarification! however, I have no clue about this. i was just worried about my S-WORKS frame that I will be collecting tomorrow! :D
 
Jul 6, 2009
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there good frames they add carbon at certain points for roubaix or sprinters sometimes. the frames that say contador rode for example should be standard.
 
nowhereman said:
What I was observing was that the previously available, "Team Geometry" models have been pulled off the market. Now, all their models come with a less aggressive standard geometry, while the more aggressive geometry is no longer available.
That would be because the VAST majority of people buying those bikes enjoy riding the slacker angles. They have money, not the inclination to ride so much that the steeper angles are a benefit to them.

nowhereman said:
An example of this can be seen over at Trek, where they have an H1, H2, and H3 frame fit. H1 being the most aggressive geometry, (and according to some reviews, a much better ride than the slacker standard geometry model)
and H3 being the slackest frame geometry,
You know the deal with reviews, right? There are no lemons and the trademark of a great review is fabricating massive differences between essentially the same bike the brand bought from the two OEM's everyone buys from.


nowhereman said:
for a much more upright riding position.
Can you post a link to specs? Are you saying they shorten the front triangle substantially over the steeper angled bikes?

nowhereman said:
Specialized had two geometry's available, up 'til last year. Now they only offer the public the slacker version of the two. I wonder what the real reasoning is behind this decision.
Maybe they just sold out? Do you realize the orders for high end product are one-and-done? If they sell out, then it's all good. They won't go back and buy another run. Between lead times on orders and tight marketing cycles of 12 months, next year's product is already ordered by the time they sell out.

nowhereman said:
Especially when they are trying to present a more racy, aggressive cycle product.
The appearance of racy sells, actual "racing" product does not sell well for many reasons.
 
May 24, 2010
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@Dirtyworks No, they didn't sell out. They've simply opted to not offer the public any choice in the matter.
 
May 24, 2010
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forty four said:
there good frames they add carbon at certain points for roubaix or sprinters sometimes. the frames that say contador rode for example should be standard.
Nonsense, just take a look at the angles between the top tube and the down tube. There ain't nothing "standard" about AC's bike or Andy's S-Works from last year.
 
nowhereman said:
@Dirtyworks No, they didn't sell out. They've simply opted to not offer the public any choice in the matter.
Something about offering so many options didn't make business sense. That's the basis for Giant's S/M/L strategy.

You have choices. You will find there is another brand with the geometry you are looking for since there is very little variation in bikes in most niches.

Do you have a link for the specs?
 
nowhereman said:
Nonsense, just take a look at the angles between the top tube and the down tube. There ain't nothing "standard" about AC's bike or Andy's S-Works from last year.
You are suggesting they worked up custom molds for those riders. It's not likely they are creating custom molds at a mass production facility. Maybe they get Calfee (or similar) to build them?

Do you have some information to corroborate your claim? It wouldn't be the first time I would be wrong.
 
May 24, 2010
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DirtyWorks said:
You are suggesting they worked up custom molds for those riders. It's not likely they are creating custom molds at a mass production facility. Maybe they get Calfee (or similar) to build them?

Do you have some information to corroborate your claim? It wouldn't be the first time I would be wrong.
My man. Please just go to the Specialized site, and look at the specs for the Venge and the SL3. As far as "suggestions". You are making suggestions I never made. I clearly stated, in my clarification post, that they used to have two different geometrys available to the public, just last year. Now they've discontinued the Team Geometry for the public. I'm not asking if this happened. I KNOW it happened. I'm also not asking for a guess at the companies business motives, because that is all you've offered. All I wonder is why they couldn't have offered a limited amount of frames in the Team Geometry, as well as the standard geo. As the molds have already been made for the Pro level bikes. BTW, you can no longer get the exact figures for the Team Geo because it is no longer available, as I have stated previously. They were there last year, but they're gone now. As for me, They're losing my interest.
 
Jan 13, 2010
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From my reading of a Tech report on this site a couple years back, on the bikes Specialized was providing for Quickstep, the "team" geometry was made only for the pros. Non-sponsored riders could get remainders, if there were any, if they knew the gatekeepers and the magic incantations.

The frames themselves were identical to the top SL Tarmacs and Roubaixs of the day except for non-extended head tubes--about 4 cm shorter for the Tarmacs and 6 for the Roubaixs. And certain riders did get custom geometries and layups.

I've seen how the shorter headtubes on many of the pro bikes have led fans and bike fitters to speculate that the pros ride ridiculously small frames. Well, many of them are just getting a pro short-head-tube version of the bikes we see in the shops

Specialized always lost me with their crazy head tubes. If Specialized designated their geometries like Trek does, a standard Tarmac would be an H2.5 and the Roubaix an H4. Maybe I'd ride a Trek if they made H1.5.
 
nowhereman said:
\All I wonder is why they couldn't have offered a limited amount of frames in the Team Geometry, as well as the standard geo.
They didn't sell enough. Really. It's that simple. The entire production chain will put up with difficult to make product if it sells. Your beloved model didn't sell.

nowhereman said:
As the molds have already been made for the Pro level bikes.
Tooling looks like a big expense, but from CAD to market, a mold is a pretty small cost. You completely ignore the fact bike product has the self life of a banana. There's no way Specialized is going to be able to move last year's product anywhere near a number that makes their ROI. And then they have Marketing problems trying to move last year's model through the channel. Messy...

As for your still unsubstantiated claims about certain Pro bikes, you might be shocked to find out a builder like Calfee (plenty of others in the world) may be the source of more than a few Pro peloton bikes. A mass producer is not set up for < 50 unit production of a product.

nowhereman said:
BTW, you can no longer get the exact figures for the Team Geo because it is no longer available, as I have stated previously. They were there last year, but they're gone now. As for me, They're losing my interest.
I guess the bad news is Specialized lost a BFF. The good news is someone else has built your beloved geometry in the material of your choice. I promise! You can get all hot and breathless about them too.
 
May 24, 2010
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DirtyWorks said:
They didn't sell enough. Really. It's that simple. The entire production chain will put up with difficult to make product if it sells. Your beloved model didn't sell.


Tooling looks like a big expense, but from CAD to market, a mold is a pretty small cost. You completely ignore the fact bike product has the self life of a banana. There's no way Specialized is going to be able to move last year's product anywhere near a number that makes their ROI. And then they have Marketing problems trying to move last year's model through the channel. Messy...

As for your still unsubstantiated claims about certain Pro bikes, you might be shocked to find out a builder like Calfee (plenty of others in the world) may be the source of more than a few Pro peloton bikes. A mass producer is not set up for < 50 unit production of a product.



I guess the bad news is Specialized lost a BFF. The good news is someone else has built your beloved geometry in the material of your choice. I promise! You can get all hot and breathless about them too.
Gotta tell you, you are so condescending it's amazing. Thanks a lot for all of your comments. I appreciate your revelations and their delivery.
 
Jan 13, 2010
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DirtyWorks said:
As for your still unsubstantiated claims about certain Pro bikes, you might be shocked to find out a builder like Calfee (plenty of others in the world) may be the source of more than a few Pro peloton bikes. A mass producer is not set up for < 50 unit production of a product.
I don't see why a mass producer like Specialized couldn't have a skunk works team producing special frames. Specialized could probably throw more money into racing development than all of Calfee.

But I don't doubt that producers like Calfee and Cyfac are making frames, probably for some of the smaller teams.
 
ustabe said:
I don't see why a mass producer like Specialized couldn't have a skunk works team producing special frames. Specialized could probably throw more money into racing development than all of Calfee.

But I don't doubt that producers like Calfee and Cyfac are making frames, probably for some of the smaller teams.
The enormous cost of running the original Skunk Works was collectively paid with taxes. Specialized does not have that luxury.

As for a big retailer like Specialized running a boutique, they typically aren't set up for it about 100 different ways.

1. The way the ROI would be calculated would make it a loser from the beginning.
2. The company would be chasing a tiny niche that doesn't add anything meaningful to their revenue. Add to that they aren't widely known for one-off's and you have a tough time making the business profitable.
3. They borrow ideas from small builders who are successful selling new product ideas anyway.
 
nowhereman said:
Gotta tell you, you are so condescending it's amazing. Thanks a lot for all of your comments. I appreciate your revelations and their delivery.
If the original reply was something like "Ok. Thanks. I didn't know that." then you would have gotten a different response. That's called civil discourse. What you did is not civil discourse.
 
Jul 27, 2009
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DirtyWorks said:
Can you post a link to specs? Are you saying they shorten the front triangle substantially over the steeper angled bikes?
.

The 'Team Geo' bikes had shorter head tubes. I'm pretty sure that was the only difference.

They weren't just for team riders they were a frameset option to buy off the shelf in the US and the UK and possibly other markets as well. The reason they aren't sold now is that they had too many problems with over weight weekend warriors ordering a size 58 in Team Geo and finding out they had a nearly two inch shorter head tube. In the smaller frame sizes like 52 (Contadors size) there is no difference, 54 slightly smaller head tube (15mm) then the difference gets more significant as you go up the sizes.

Here are the 2009 team and non-team specs http://www.specialized.com/us/en/bc/SBCBkModel.jsp?spid=39241&menuItemId=0
 
Jan 13, 2010
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DirtyWorks said:
As for a big retailer like Specialized running a boutique, they typically aren't set up for it about 100 different ways.
So are you implying that this year's SL3s that HTC-Columbia and Saxobank are riding this year are made by somebody like Calfee? Because these bikes look exactly like SL3s with shorter head tubes, not the ones you buy at a Specialized concept store.

And regarding skunk works, my context was making carbon fiber bike frames for racing teams, not an SR-71 Blackbird. A slight difference in scale, no?
 
Jun 10, 2009
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M Sport said:
.

The 'Team Geo' bikes had shorter head tubes. I'm pretty sure that was the only difference.

They weren't just for team riders they were a frameset option to buy off the shelf in the US and the UK and possibly other markets as well. The reason they aren't sold now is that they had too many problems with over weight weekend warriors ordering a size 58 in Team Geo and finding out they had a nearly two inch shorter head tube. In the smaller frame sizes like 52 (Contadors size) there is no difference, 54 slightly smaller head tube (15mm) then the difference gets more significant as you go up the sizes.

Here are the 2009 team and non-team specs http://www.specialized.com/us/en/bc/SBCBkModel.jsp?spid=39241&menuItemId=0
Looks like there was 0.5 degrees difference in the head tube angle in size 61, with the Team model being the slacker of the two. I wouldn't expect this to cause a vast difference in handling. Otherwise apart from the head tube length (where there is a massive 55mm difference), geometry seems mostly the same.
For the size 58, except for head tube length (and standover of course), all the other specs are identical.

If the OP really likes the Tarmac but needs the lower bar height the shorter head tube of the Team model gives, I would suggest combining a zero-stack headset and a stem with some drop in it would likely accomplish a satisfactory position (e.g. 3T ARX is available with +/- 17 degrees which in 110mm length gives over 30mm drop vs a 0-degree).
 
May 24, 2010
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M Sport said:
.

The 'Team Geo' bikes had shorter head tubes. I'm pretty sure that was the only difference.

They weren't just for team riders they were a frameset option to buy off the shelf in the US and the UK and possibly other markets as well. The reason they aren't sold now is that they had too many problems with over weight weekend warriors ordering a size 58 in Team Geo and finding out they had a nearly two inch shorter head tube. In the smaller frame sizes like 52 (Contadors size) there is no difference, 54 slightly smaller head tube (15mm) then the difference gets more significant as you go up the sizes.

Here are the 2009 team and non-team specs http://www.specialized.com/us/en/bc/SBCBkModel.jsp?spid=39241&menuItemId=0
Thanks:) That was something along the lines of what I was trying to find out. I was starting to feel as if I was in an alternate universe and aliens were talking to me about alternative rocketships. Too bad the big boys won out and, made Specialized think they had to stop producing those slightly more aggressive frames (via smaller head tubes) for the public. Thanks again, especially for the old link.
 
ustabe said:
So are you implying that this year's SL3s that HTC-Columbia and Saxobank are riding this year are made by somebody like Calfee? Because these bikes look exactly like SL3s with shorter head tubes, not the ones you buy at a Specialized concept store.
The original comment was directed at custom carbon frames for cycling "super stars." As for what Saxo and HTC ride, it is likely they are riding production product. Certainly for the support riders.

ustabe said:
And regarding skunk works, my context was making carbon fiber bike frames for racing teams, not an SR-71 Blackbird. A slight difference in scale, no?
Well, different scale but definitely similar in the sense they are to act like a small company within a much larger one. Don't forget, if a new concept gets traction in the bicycle marketplace, a Trek or Specialized will just borrow the idea. Borrowing ideas tends to work really well in the bike industry.
 
May 24, 2010
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DirtyWorks said:
The original comment was directed at custom carbon frames for cycling "super stars." As for what Saxo and HTC ride, it is likely they are riding production product. Certainly for the support riders.



Well, different scale but definitely similar in the sense they are to act like a small company within a much larger one. Don't forget, if a new concept gets traction in the bicycle marketplace, a Trek or Specialized will just borrow the idea. Borrowing ideas tends to work really well in the bike industry.
You've been off the mark for the whole thread. Creating your own scenarios, and then answering them for yourself. I'm glad you have ingeniously figured out all the answers, to all the things that were supposedly said by others (in your own mind). Job well done, you should be incredibly proud of yourself. Thanks for all the static on the airwaves. Retort as you will, your remarks mean absolutely nothing to me. dsut4392 has addressed this issue properly.I'm outta here.
 

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