Is UAE Over the Top?

[Cookster15]

I would counter your argument by saying that sometimes the most obvious answer is the one staring us in the face even if we have a cultural resistance to accepting it, even if it seems so shocking and ridiculous that we cannot begin to imagine it. Perhaps something so shocking that it would destroy the sport once and for all, or at least take years to recover from. And as such cannot possibly be revealed. Unfortunately, studying all the evidence since as far back as maybe 2020, I have come to the conclusion that this scenario is upon us and that biological doping alone doesn’t logically explain what we are seeing in terms of Pogacar’s performances across all race categories, demeanour, and superhuman powers of recovery both during and after races.

Motors or biological doping are not staring us in the face if that is what you mean. How much are rival teams and riders losing by UAE's unfair advantage? I've been following the sport since about 1993 and come to a different conclusion - i.e., an arms race.

UAE makes modern cycling ridiculous? Then why don't we hear any complaints by Red Bull ? They didn't come to cycling to be beaten by cheats. RB who spend $1.5 bil / yr are second only to Nike in global sports marketing spend.

I am not saying you are wrong just trying to make sense of this. Your logical conclusion doesn't really explain why rival teams and riders are silent? There would be at least rumors. And Red Bull's resources are at least a match for anything UAE has. I am not seeing UAE sponsoring successful Formula 1 teams.

 

[Rackham]

I think the real challenge oft overlooked in The Clinic is out of competition testing? That is how you catch teams and doctors testing their riders if they have discovered a super responder. You can't know if a young rider is a good responder until you jack them with juice and see how they respond. Team doctors will monitor all the markers tracked by the biological passport.

UAE's doctors had no way of knowing a young Pogacar would be a super responder until they experimented on the road away from the testers. Likewise Del Toro.

But glad we haven't jumped on the motors bandwagon when there are more logical and traditional doping explanations for what is going on.

I think what we see is what we get, i.e. an arms race where aiming to recruit the best young responder is the goal. Just a guess here bI ut it could be something to do with beating the biological passport. They're all doing it. But these young riders who explode onto the scene (Almeida, Ayuso, Skelmose, Evenepoel, Tarling, Lenny Martinez etc.) hit their limit early as well. And perhaps stop responding as well over the years.

It's entirely possible Del Toro is the same FYI. How many times have we heard since 2020 that xyz young rider is going to be smashing it when he gets better and better as he gets older? Meanwhile in reality they're stuck at a samey level with little progression.

 

[TheKidsCallMeBoss]

how did UAE surpass Visma? in relation to the title of this thread, i'm of the opinion that while Visma was over the top in 2023, they have since been surpassed (perhaps incorrect word choice, idk?) by UAE. sure, a lot is due to one rider, but let's not overlook that del toro has multiple GC wins in WT level stage races (not to mention a slew of semi classics), and the team as a whole is consistently dominant.

even simpler? the last time Visma was at the top of the UCI rankings per PCS was 2022. they were surpassed in 2023 by UAE and that has been the case to this day.

"Surpassed" is clearly the wrong choice of words. It wasn't that the UAE surpassed Visma, rather, Visma regressed after Hessmann failed a doping test and Van Hooydonck nearly died. Since UAE has a large budget, the team's overall level is very high, they are able to win many races by using numbers or by sending higher-level riders to lower-tier races. But UAE's performance has been consistent: one rider has been able to win major races, while the others haven't been able to reach that level.

 

[Cookster15]

How many times have we heard since 2020 that xyz young rider is going to be smashing it when he gets better and better as he gets older? Meanwhile in reality they're stuck at a samey level with little progression.

Andy Schleck too. This theory might hold with Almeida, Ayuso, Skelmose, Evenepoel, Tarling, Lenny Martinez etc. But it comes apart with Pogacar. When Pog announced himself in 2019 he won the Tour of California when he was still only 20. Here we are in 2026, aged 27, and there are no signs he is slowing? And he certainly progressed between 2023 and 2024!

 

[piada especial]

"Surpassed" is clearly the wrong choice of words. It wasn't that the UAE surpassed Visma, rather, Visma regressed after Hessmann failed a doping test and Van Hooydonck nearly died. Since UAE has a large budget, the team's overall level is very high, they are able to win many races by using numbers or by sending higher-level riders to lower-tier races. But UAE's performance has been consistent: one rider has been able to win major races, while the others haven't been able to reach that level.

bro i'm not going to continune to white knight for visma because i think they're super dodgy as well, but i googled 'surpass' and it's defined as "to be better than, or go beyond, something else. It shows that a person, object, or goal has done more than anyone expected." clearly wrong? i don't think i'm that far off. but, not my first language, so you win. it was visma that regressed and uae just chugged along with their big budget, one generational talent, and totally reformed management. cheers!

 

[Krzysztof_O]

Andy Schleck too. This theory might hold with Almeida, Ayuso, Skelmose, Evenepoel, Tarling, Lenny Martinez etc. But it comes apart with Pogacar. When Pog announced himself in 2019 he won the Tour of California when he was still only 20. Here we are in 2026, aged 27, and there are no signs he is slowing? And he certainly progressed between 2023 and 2024!

It's true. When he won his first two Tours I thought a GT monster was born (predicting 5 Tours and 10 GTs) but didn't think he would become such an outstanding all-rounder.

 

[TheKidsCallMeBoss]

bro i'm not going to continune to white knight for visma because i think they're super dodgy as well, but i googled 'surpass' and it's defined as "to be better than, or go beyond, something else. It shows that a person, object, or goal has done more than anyone expected." clearly wrong? i don't think i'm that far off. but, not my first language, so you win. it was visma that regressed and uae just chugged along with their big budget, one generational talent, and totally reformed management. cheers!

I'm just stating the facts, mate. The performance of UAE riders has been quite consistent over the years. How many times have Almeida, Ayuso, and Adam Yates tried to compete for the general classification in the Grand Tours? Almeida - 6, Ayuso - 4, Adam Yates - 3 times. They failed every single time. While Kuss and Simon Yates each tried once, and both won.

So to me, it looks like Visma/Jumbo was in full *** mode for a while and then toned it down. UAE's performance, on the other hand, was consistent.

 

[SorelyBoy]

I'm just stating the facts, mate. The performance of UAE riders has been quite consistent over the years. How many times have Almeida, Ayuso, and Adam Yates tried to compete for the general classification in the Grand Tours? Almeida - 6, Ayuso - 4, Adam Yates - 3 times. They failed every single time. While Kuss and Simon Yates each tried once, and both won.

So to me, it looks like Visma/Jumbo was in full *** mode for a while and then toned it down. UAE's performance, on the other hand, was consistent.

Consistent with what we have come to expect from Gianetti and Maxtin, except this time with a massive budget.

 

[noob]

I think what we see is what we get, i.e. an arms race where aiming to recruit the best young responder is the goal. Just a guess here bI ut it could be something to do with beating the biological passport. They're all doing it. But these young riders who explode onto the scene (Almeida, Ayuso, Skelmose, Evenepoel, Tarling, Lenny Martinez etc.) hit their limit early as well. And perhaps stop responding as well over the years.

It's entirely possible Del Toro is the same FYI. How many times have we heard since 2020 that xyz young rider is going to be smashing it when he gets better and better as he gets older? Meanwhile in reality they're stuck at a samey level with little progression.

I'd say Almeida did improve more slowly compared to the others, but from now on I think he's gone. Even if he'd get back to the same level as 24/25 others have long surpassed him.

 

[SHAD0W93]

I'd say Almeida did improve more slowly compared to the others, but from now on I think he's gone. Even if he'd get back to the same level as 24/25 others have long surpassed him.

Yeah this year has been a big hit to Almeida but he could always turn it around for Vuelta.

 

[SHAD0W93]

Andy Schleck too.

I think Andy was more a mental barrier than a physical stagnation until his crash. He seemed more laid back in his training, not caring as much to improve his skillset, and only cared about LBL and Tour. The 2011 Tour before hand he thought he was a clear favorite from the year before and when he lost that was a big hit and then being awarded the 2010 Tour didn’t help matters. He got a win which he wanted and stood on the podium with his brother which he’d been trying to do since 2009. Before his crash he was looking like his worst self, then the crash happened and he couldn’t get back to any shape.

Multiple people have talked about it Frank had Andy’s talent his career would be better due to his work ethic.

 

[Cookster15]

The 2011 Tour before hand he thought he was a clear favorite from the year before

After dominating the Giro Contador was the clear favorite when the 2011 TdF began, not Andy. In 2011 Frank outclimbed Andy other than that Galibier stage. On the above I think we saw in the Tour that Andy 1) underestimated Evans's climbing and 2) underestimated the huge deficit in his time trial ability - he was 2'31" slower than Evans in Grenoble. Only 3 seconds quicker than Frank.

 

[SHAD0W93]

After dominating the Giro Contador was the clear favorite when the 2011 TdF began, not Andy. In 2011 Frank outclimbed Andy other than that Galibier stage. On the above I think we saw in the Tour that Andy 1) underestimated Evans's climbing and 2) underestimated the huge deficit in his time trial ability - he was 2'31" slower than Evans in Grenoble. Only 3 seconds quicker than Frank.

I said Andy thought he was the clear favorite (especially due to Contador doing the Giro), not what everyone else thought. Yes he absolutely over and underestimated his abilities compared to the others.

 

[Shakes]

Tim Wellens who previously who'd have tried to be in such a breakaway (not necessarily succeed) now keeps a large group at bay singlehandedly. A group where e.g. Pidcock is really putting in an effort.

Commentators talk about 'vibe'...

 

[E_F_]

Tim Wellens who previously who'd have tried to be in such a breakaway (not necessarily succeed) now keeps a large group at bay singlehandedly. A group where e.g. Pidcock is really putting in an effort.

Commentators talk about 'vibe'...

He may well be "vibing"

 

[repoman]

Tim Wellens who previously who'd have tried to be in such a breakaway (not necessarily succeed) now keeps a large group at bay singlehandedly. A group where e.g. Pidcock is really putting in an effort.

Commentators talk about 'vibe'...

Last year's performance by him was laughable. 45km solo off the front of Simmons, Campenaerts, WvA, Mohoric, Storer, Lutsenko chasing him and he puts in 2min on them on the flat run in...after having done nothing for 8 years and being 34 years old.

 

[peterfin]

Tim Wellens had a heat allergy. He was called the 'rain man' because he always failed when it was hot and sunny. Today he is the 'sun man'. He says that heat training was the solution but it is an immune response that requires medical treatment. Medical treatment is the solution to other 'issues' as well I guess.

 

[Forever The Best]

UAE just finished 1-2 on a mountain stage in TdF from peloton. Previous examples in the 21st century are:
- 2002 Plateau de Beille US Postal (Armstrong&Heras)
- 2008 Hautacam Saunier Duval (Piepoli&Cobo)
- 2011 Col du Galibier Leopard Trek (A.Schleck&F.Schleck)
- 2013 Ax-3 Domaines Sky (Froome&Porte)
- 2015 La Pierre Saint Martin Sky (Froome&Porte)

Bonus: - 2012 Peyragudes Sky (Froome&Wiggins) were 1st and 2nd amongst the GC contenders behind Valverde from breakaway.
- 2009 Le Grand Bornand Saxo Bank (F.Schleck&A.Schleck) finished 1st and 3rd with Contador in 2nd all together.
- 2008 Alpe d'Huez Saxo Bank (Sastre&A.Schleck) Sastre won solo and Andy Schleck finished 3rd with S.Sanchez (2nd)
- 2018 La Rosiere Sky (Thomas&Froome) Thomas won solo and Froome finished 3rd with Dumoulin (2nd)

 

[Forever The Best]

After dominating the Giro Contador was the clear favorite when the 2011 TdF began, not Andy. In 2011 Frank outclimbed Andy other than that Galibier stage. On the above I think we saw in the Tour that Andy 1) underestimated Evans's climbing and 2) underestimated the huge deficit in his time trial ability - he was 2'31" slower than Evans in Grenoble. Only 3 seconds quicker than Frank.

I would argue Andy was stronger the next day too. Spent lots of energy following Contador on Telegraphe&Galibier and worked with him on a move that didn't go anywhere yet Frank couldn't drop Andy on the final climb. He was almost certainly stronger on Plateau de Beille too but didn't attack hard because Frank wasn't looking good.

 

[ColonelKidneyBeans]

Soooooooo about the Napolitano stuff (ex pro who was DS at the SALUS Italian junior team, just suspended 20 years for providing doping products to his riders) check out his instagram page...
WAREHOUSEMAN & STAFF ASSISTANT @uaeteam_adq @uaedevo_team

 

[Penninepeddler]

Soooooooo about the Napolitano stuff (ex pro who was DS at the SALUS Italian junior team, just suspended 20 years for providing doping products to his riders) check out his instagram page...
WAREHOUSEMAN & STAFF ASSISTANT @uaeteam_adq @uaedevo_team

He has now removed it.
Also changed his LinkedIn to say he was working for Apple as a Warehouseman and Staff Assistant and not UAE...

big brother probably made a very angry phone call.

 

[Kopfsteinpflaster]

He works for Apple, slipped on the keyboard and accidentally typed uaeteam_adq instead of Apple. Happens.

 

[Penninepeddler]

He works for Apple, slipped on the keyboard and accidentally typed uaeteam_adq instead of Apple. Happens.

Apple who have their warehouse just North of Milan...

and for sure have "Warehouseman/Staff assistant" roles...

 

[Samu Cuenca]

So Gianetti has finally found some websites that will allow him to edit them.

 

[pastronef]

now they re-upped del Toro until end 2031. these will be a few long years